Static vs. random reasure chests

[Pegasus Organs]

I'm tired of random treasure that goes through a random name generator a removes all excitement from opening new chests. Having played new RPGs (even the new alpha/betas) of games like Divinity:Original Sin and Wasteland 2, I was struck by how disappointing random loot has been.

 

It makes more sense for open, or lesser containers, and they should be tiered to the region wherein they are found so they contextually make sense.

 

Anyone have any thoughts or additions?

[Lythe Vodaine]

I loved how they handled the loot in "The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind" and "Fallout: New Vegas": Small loot would be random, but important stuff like "Cook-cook's Incinerator" could always be found in the same location / on the same foe / in the same container. I remember hating that part in "Dragon Age: Origins" where you had to abuse quickload (literally for hours) in order to get a fair chance on a full Warden Armor set, because of the ridiculously low drop chance of some of the parts in it.

 

So I'd say: Yes for random small loot, but rare items should be rare because they are hard to find, not because they require luck to obtain them, since "luck" in a game with load/quickload is in essence obsolete as a means to make items rare.

 

But that's of course just my 2 Copper Pieces on the matter.

[dukeofwhales]

I prefer IWD-style loot tables with only the occasional hand placed loot where it's important.  It makes replays more interesting, but the high end loot has to be hand placed (I don't think savescumming your way to the best loot is really a good game mechanic, so the game shouldn't encourage you to do that by having 'ultimate loot' which is only attainable through random drops).  There's no reason for all uniques to be hand placed, though, and also no reason why you should be guaranteed to see all unique loot in one playthrough.

Edited December 23, 2013 by dukeofwhales

[Abel]

Skyrim is awfull for that (amongst other things). Besides the fact that i find the items in the core game ugly/unappropriated/redundant/unvaried with just 3 weapon types and 8 armor sets (which are exclusives oO) in a game of 300+ hours lenght (for me probably 500+ with DLCs), it's leveled (beuark), and random...

 

*enter the cave (another one that i don't know why i explore it)*

*kill things (once more. Trolls here, they MUST have a chest to guard TOO, don't know why, but they must)*

*open the safe (safe n°15821451: the OTHER one nobody checked yet in past 250 years)

*poor loot: you didn't find the boots of XXXX armor that you NEEDED in order to just USE your base armor ability (wich depends on wearing an UNIFIED armor set)*

*reload*

...

*3/4 hours later: the boots! well, fed up, lets play angry bird*

 

Agree with you, some part of random, but hand placed is great for the major part.

[Prometheus]

I don't like random drop rates for unique/good weapons and armor. But I have no problem with random drop rates for less valuable stuff like consumables and weak weapons and armor.

 

...

There's no reason for all uniques to be hand placed, though, why you should be guaranteed to see all unique loot in one playthrough.

I think a better way to achieve this goal is, to make it impossible to get all unique items in one playthrough. E.g. for the different ways you can solve a quest you will get different unique items. With random lists for valuable stuff you will just increase reolading to get the items you want.

[Plutone00]

The obvious problem with random loot is you often get stuff you don't need. Mage doesn't need bows or heavy armor. System has to perform party checks and give priority rolls to gear that may be useful instead of just throwing completely random stuff at player.

[Hassat Hunter]

I already posted my opinions of this on another thread...

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64505-random-loot-or-fixed-drops-from-certain-mobs/

And still stand by it.

 

By using a list by which it picks one item (random) it mixes the best of both worlds without the cons of non-random (predicable) or full-random (usually crap).

 

EDIT (a wild post appeared)

@ Pluto:

Why? You've got a 6 party team. You probably have the other classes standby at your keep. A truly bad system gives you exactly what you need. I think such a party system would only degenerate the game than add to it.

"Hey, I'm a ranger, I want to join your party"

"Cool."

"So, why am I my underwear here, and while you all have shiny +5 weapons I got a crappy -2 weapon."

"Well, funny thing you see, till now we never ever found ranger itemry. How odd, no. But hopefully we will find something before you get mashes into a bloody pulp. Now would you please try and attack that dragon there, please? Thank you!"

Edited December 23, 2013 by Hassat Hunter

[anameforobsidian]

I don't remember where I saw it, but I believe JE Sawyer said thar the vast majority of loot would be hand placed.

[neo6874]

I'd like to see it "random static".

 

E.g. "Gruk'targ the goblin chieftan ~always~ has 'Goblin's Bite' (+1 magical weapon, +1d6 acid damage) as his guaranteed loot (plus some other trash - 25 GP, or a gemstone, etc)".  However, on my playthrough, it's a longsword.  On Hassat's, it's an axe.  On Pegasus', it's a short sword. (and so on, through a handful of the major weapon types).

 

To make things interesting, it's decided at the beginning of the game; no random rolls when you open the chest/kill the bad guy... for those of us who like reading every single "history" tome, hints about what it is.  Nice thing is that Obsidian won't necessarily have to write numerous descriptions for the things... 

 

"Forged in the depths of [were ever], the Goblin's Bite has been carried by goblin chieftans for 300 years as a sign of their rule over the goblins of [where ever]. (more stuff here because it's too early without nearly enough coffee)"

[Plutone00]

@ Pluto:

Why? You've got a 6 party team. You probably have the other classes standby at your keep. A truly bad system gives you exactly what you need. I think such a party system would only degenerate the game than add to it.

"Hey, I'm a ranger, I want to join your party"

"Cool."

"So, why am I my underwear here, and while you all have shiny +5 weapons I got a crappy -2 weapon."

"Well, funny thing you see, till now we never ever found ranger itemry. How odd, no. But hopefully we will find something before you get mashes into a bloody pulp. Now would you please try and attack that dragon there, please? Thank you!"

 

 

My party usually consists of multiple characters of the same class - dps mage, healer mage, dps warrior, tank warrior etc If we are talkng about loot system in general, let's say you are playing TOR MMO (which always comes up when someone needs a bad example) and you've been preparing and organising a big raid for week. Now the raid finally happens, after the couple of hours of "blood, sweat and tears" (not to mention preparation process) it's finally over and you are left with nothing, cause the item you were aiming for did not drop and if it did someone else of 16 people got it. You are left where you started, just more frustrated. A truly GOOD system will get the player exactly what he needs. Doesn't need to be a 100% drop, but the roll has to be adjusted in favor of the items usable by party.

 

A high level dragon would be an end-game encouner (most of the time optional even). By that time I would have my party suitably equipped and leveled to deal with it.

 

Introducing a new character with low level and poor equipment (substracting from AC and THOAC is actually a good thing according to AD&D 2nd Edition rules btw) at this point makes little sense. It's been done occasionally though, but the games in question usually offered a quick way to bring character up to speed -  rings with 10x XP multiplier, increased droprate etc. Otherwise the character would just stay out of the loop.

[neo6874]

 

Introducing a new character with low level and poor equipment (substracting from AC and THOAC is actually a good thing according to AD&D 2nd Edition rules btw) at this point makes little sense. 

 

 

Not really following what you're trying to say here ... I think it's in reply to this line:

 

 

"So, why am I my underwear here, and while you all have shiny +5 weapons I got a crappy -2 weapon."

 

edit - oi, why'd this get eaten?

 

"THACO" is just the roll you need to make on d20 to hit AC0. All other things being equal, a +5 weapon will mean you have a 35% better chance to hit the other guy than with a -2. (e.g. with a BAB of +5, you'll end up with THACO of 10 instead of 17).

 

Armor works the same, it's just that the display is backwards  -- e.g. "+5 full plate" will have AC -3 instead of AC 2 (AC 13 vs. AC 8 for 3.x).

Edited December 23, 2013 by neo6874

[Hassat Hunter]

That's why in TOR they don't do that anymore, and just give out tokens which you exchange for an item of your wish.

Which is pretty stupid, but it's an MMO, so yeah.

 

Doesn't mean I want such a system in my singleplayer RPG. If I want to make a team *all* with swords, the game shouldn't adjust for me and drop all swords. I'll probably have to supplement my horrible decision with store-bought swords, and make choices who gets the new sword if I find a sword.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Hassat Hunter

[Plutone00]

edit - oi, why'd this get eaten?

 

"THACO" is just the roll you need to make on d20 to hit AC0. All other things being equal, a +5 weapon will mean you have a 35% better chance to hit the other guy than with a -2. (e.g. with a BAB of +5, you'll end up with THACO of 10 instead of 17).

 

Armor works the same, it's just that the display is backwards  -- e.g. "+5 full plate" will have AC -3 instead of AC 2 (AC 13 vs. AC 8 for 3.x).

 

 

@Neo

 

You should read more carefully. I said substracting from AC and THOAC is actually a good thing according to AD&D 2nd Edition rules and nothing about +5 equipment mechanics. You are preaching to choir, mate.

 

Doesn't mean I want such a system in my singleplayer RPG. If I want to make a team *all* with swords, the game shouldn't adjust for me and drop all swords. I'll probably have to supplement my horrible decision with store-bought swords, and make choices who gets the new sword if I find a sword.

 

 

@Hunter

 

You should read more carefully too. I repeat that it does not have to be "drop nothing but swords" just an adjustment a roll to gain "swords" more frequently if you have "a party of sword users".

 

That's why in TOR they don't do that anymore, and just give out tokens which you exchange for an item of your wish.

Which is pretty stupid, but it's an MMO, so yeah.

 

 

I have no idea what they are doing over there now to be honest. I've been trying to put the whole TOR expirience behind me like some kind of trauma.

[Yellow Rabbit]

You should read more carefully too. I repeat that it does not have to be "drop nothing but swords" just an adjustment a roll to gain "swords" more frequently if you have "a party of sword users".

Call me dreamer or, maybe, stupid, but drop system you describing must be somewhat depending on logic. If I went into famous warrior's tomb, opened his coffin and found there mage's staff just because I'm a mage and need items like this, it would seem wrong to me. Logically.

 

upd: as there already was said here, random drop's good for money, potions and low quality crappy things of all sorts, but really valuable stuff should be placed manually.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Yellow Rabbit

[Plutone00]

 

You should read more carefully too. I repeat that it does not have to be "drop nothing but swords" just an adjustment a roll to gain "swords" more frequently if you have "a party of sword users".

Call me dreamer or, maybe, stupid, but drop system you describing must be somewhat depending on logic. If I went into famous warrior's tomb, opened his coffin and found there mage's staff just because I'm a mage and need items like this, it would seem wrong to me. Logically.

 

upd: as there already was said here, random drop's good for money, potions and low quality crappy things of all sorts, but really valuable stuff should be placed manually.

 

 

@YR

 

Wouldn't it be weirder if you opened that coffin and found nothing but bunch of potions. Is it even healthy? Considering the age of the tomb, they should be wayyyyy past the expiration date

 

Seriously mate, we were taking about random drop mechanics, not treusure in general. Nobody is rejecting the placed drops, which could be adjusted too btw. For example, during the course of DA2 Legacy Hawke gained warden equipment, based on his/her class along with the seal key adjusted in a same way.

 

 

[Yellow Rabbit]

Wouldn't it be weirder if you opened that coffin and found nothing but bunch of potions. Is it even healthy? Considering the age of the tomb, they should be wayyyyy past the expiration date

 

Seriously mate, we were taking about random drop mechanics, not treusure in general. Nobody is rejecting the placed drops, which could be adjusted too btw. For example, during the course of DA2 Legacy Hawke gained warden equipment, based on his/her class along with the seal key adjusted in a same way.

I didn't mean loot from coffin must be randomized Completely random drop mechanic meant for other types of games entirely. I supposed that misc and/or crappy stuff should be placed randomly. Moderately valuable stuff should be adjusted for falling from certain monsters/people or in certain places, or both. If you want a good magic staff, go kill some mage or rob mage's house. Maybe you'll find something good, maybe not. And incredibly valuable items should be placed manually. And of course (that's slightly off topic here, but still) there must be items that couldn't be dropped or found at all, just crafted. Dreams, dreams...

[Gromnir]

hand-placed loot is Less likely to result in wacky bad/good results.  somebody brought up iwd as a model for random, yes? sadly, iwd represents one o' the biggest issues we got with random-- developer fail. josh actually threw feargus under the bus in regards to the iwd loot tables. odd as it sounds, josh admitted that feargus were one o' the contributors to the loot tables, and it were feargus who went all monty haul with great swords that did electrical damage and had a 25% chance to stun on every hit... just as an example. 

 

iwd were a relative linear dungeon crawl, and while it were fair-sized, it weren't considered a particular large game. nevertheless, the loot tables for iwd were large. am not envious o' the developer who gets stuck with creating such loot tables as it is gonna be an extreme dull job. is unlikely any single developer gots time or mental fortitude to develop interesting back-stories for every minor drop in the game. so we gets not only dull loot, but, 'cause developer is being conscious o' incrementally improving the loots, we inevitable get over-powered loot. the black isle/obsidian loot tables has always out-paced the game difficulty. kotor2 had similar randomness as iwd, and the only reason the insane power o' the drops were less noteworthy is 'cause the crafting system were even more busted... players could make uber gear by midpoint of the game. 

 

hand-placed loot helps save the developers from themselves. is much easier to make five unique and balanced items than it is to try and make twenty such items. help the developers help themselves and request hand-placed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Plutone00]

If you want a good magic staff, go kill some mage or rob mage's house. Maybe you'll find something good, maybe not.

 

 

What's wrong with that system is it just becomes a store mechanic with radomness factor attached. You are better off going to an actual magic store and buy a good staff then hunt mages and try to win a lottery. Not to mention non-mage players will avoid mage-related quests and areas because rewards are useless.

 

Now what if that crooked mage happened to have a buch of enchanted equipment, usable by non-mages? And we are back to the mechanis I proposed.

[Yellow Rabbit]

@Plutone00

 

To be honest, it doesn't settle in my mind why you find such type of randomness factor a bad thing. Let's imagine you're a mage and want to find a good staff for yourself. You go in the magic store and find there one, but it has very high price, because good stuff is always expensive. Then you're thinking "Man, this sucks. I don't have such money. Maybe I could find some other mage and recover staff from him?" You're walking around the town and finding a mage who might have what you need. Then it's your choice - kill him or search his house and find it. Or both. Didn't find what you sought? Well, **it happens. All the time. Try another one. Or maybe you found a staff, but it accidentally turned out that you're not mage? Give it to your party mage, he'll find use for it. Don't have mage in a party? Then sell the staff and make profit (value of in-game money is a different question). What's the problem? If you came here for quest, you'll get not only item in reward but experience too. Not that all quests are played only for those.

[neo6874]

 

edit - oi, why'd this get eaten?

 

"THACO" is just the roll you need to make on d20 to hit AC0. All other things being equal, a +5 weapon will mean you have a 35% better chance to hit the other guy than with a -2. (e.g. with a BAB of +5, you'll end up with THACO of 10 instead of 17).

 

Armor works the same, it's just that the display is backwards  -- e.g. "+5 full plate" will have AC -3 instead of AC 2 (AC 13 vs. AC 8 for 3.x).

 

@Neo

 

You should read more carefully. I said substracting from AC and THOAC is actually a good thing according to AD&D 2nd Edition rules and nothing about +5 equipment mechanics. You are preaching to choir, mate.

 

 

I was questioning this part:

 

Introducing a new character with low level and poor equipment (substracting from AC and THOAC is actually a good thing according to AD&D 2nd Edition rules btw)makes little sense

as to whether it had the relevance to the quip Hassat made about "bringing a newbie in his underwear and a -2 weapon". I misread it as you saying a "-2 sword" was somehow better, since "subtracting from AC/THACO".

Edited December 23, 2013 by neo6874

[Valorian]

Hand-placed all the way. Especially if it is enemies' equipped gear we're talking about, as it also affects the quality of encounters.

[Plutone00]

 

To be honest, it doesn't settle in my mind why you find such type of randomness factor a bad thing.

 

For the reasons I mentioned above, obviously. Let's not make it go full-circle again, please?

 

Let's imagine you're a mage and want to find a good staff for yourself. You go in the magic store and find there one, but it has very high price, because good stuff is always expensive. Then you're thinking "Man, this sucks. I don't have such money. Maybe I could find some other mage and recover staff from him?"

 

 

No, I don't. If I need the staff in question to the point of not being able to live without it, I'll just cheat myself some money and be done with it instead of wasting time on the lottery.

 

 

Or maybe you found a staff, but it accidentally turned out that you're not mage? Give it to your party mage, he'll find use for it. Don't have mage in a party? Then sell the staff and make profit

 

 

Or maybe ,AGAIN, my loot drops are adjusted if favor of my party classes (again, doesn't mean drops for classes outside of party do not happen, they are just less frequent), my party is decently equiped and I sell the stuff because I do not need it, not because my eqipment is poor and I deperately need funds for an upgrade.

 

If you came here for quest, you'll get not only item in reward but experience too. Not that all quests are played only for those.

 

 

I do not remeber EXP ever being in short supply. We are getting totally off-topic here, but quests are not played for EXP. They are played for rewards in form of items, various bonuses, story advancement or simply thrills. There is no point robbing mage's house if doen't have anything you need.

[Yellow Rabbit]

No, I don't. If I need the staff in question to the point of not being able to live without it, I'll just cheat myself some money and be done with it instead of wasting time on the lottery.

So you want game to favor your needs in order you don't have to cheat? I got that. I guess we won't come to agreement here, because for me cheat is always a cheat whether it used by me manually or built into game mechanic. I think this is again a question of balance between hardcore (e.g. challenging) playing and player's comfort. I'm really tired of the second part, but that's my problem.

[Caerdon]

Despite what some people are saying, random loot does not have to mean that reloading can be abused. Loot can be randomized when you start a new game, it's as simple as that.

[Plutone00]

So you want game to favor your needs in order you don't have to cheat? I got that. I guess we won't come to agreement here, because for me cheat is always a cheat whether it used by me manually or built into game mechanic. I think this is again a question of balance between hardcore (e.g. challenging) playing and player's comfort. I'm really tired of the second part, but that's my problem.

 

 

You are totally missing the point here.  Adjustable random loot doesn't take away challege from the game, it just drops equipment for classes currently in the party more frequently (how many times do I have to repeat that?) It doen't mean premium- grade equipment is droping left and right,

 

If the game loses it's challenge just because the party is adequately equiped, the overall balance has to be tweaked, not the loot system.