Attribute theory

[Mor]

I just seen the rest update.

 

 

New name(I hate Might), and re-balanced/shuffled effects.. My initial reaction after the discussion we had here is Fuuuuuu. I'll wait and see how it feel little bit later..

[IndiraLightfoot]

Might covers damage and healing.

Constitution - stamina and health

Dexterity- accuracy

Perception - penetration and interrupt

Intelligence - area of effect and duration

Resolve - concentration

 

This is a pretty neat system, and not too far off the great one Aluminiumtrioxid summed up earlier on. I think this attribute system should work just fine, don't you?

 

EDIT: I'll start a new thread for discussion on these confirmed attributes.

Edited January 15, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[JFSOCC]

I'd like to see resolve influencing more than just concentration (not getting interrupted every time you're hit.)

A person with a high resolve would keep going despite setbacks or obstacles. So, maybe something which allows you to last longer? Resolutely keeping walking while you're tired, getting back up after being knocked down. Less fatigue over time? More stamina regain between combats? maybe decreases duration of negative effects?

that last one would make it a nice counter to high intelligence opponents.

[Ganrich]

I agree, JFSOCC. IMHO, the change to Resolve has made it possible to use it as a dump stat for ranged classes. If they aren't being focused by being placed in the back of the lines then they don't need Resolve. It definitely needs something more. Increased in combat stamina regen would be a good one, but still can be unnecessary for back line characters. Reduced durations on negative effects is also good, but suffers from the same problem. People at the back will not necessitate concentration like those in the front unless the AI is really good which could be the case.

 

IMHO, Resolve now needs something offensive to make it more appealing to all classes. Because as I see it it now teeters really close to being useless with good positioning and tactics. It needs something that directly effects combat, and not indirectly by only working when the character is hit.

 

I have been silent on this change for the past day because I have been sick and have been thinking about what could be done to resolve to make it more interesting. I still haven't come up with anything. Just thought I would pop in and express my concern with Resolve. Otherwise I am fine with the changes to the Attributes and their function in combat. I just feel resolve got less appealing for many builds.

[Jobby]

 

 

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, just trying to flush out some of these ideas.  To be honest, I glanced through most of the posts after Sawyers to get a general idea of what people were saying before responding to his and have just been defending my stance.  The restructuring to allow for str and int to serve separate roles has been mentioned a few times, but what we can't be certain on is how any changes will affect the game.

 

I fully concede that two people of the exact same height, using the exact skeletal and muscular alignment, at the exact same speed, striking the exact same area will result in the more muscular person delivering more impact to the same surface area.  My argument for intelligence-based damage is this: is it reasonable to assume that an incredibly stupid person and an incredibly smart person(with the same experience and other attributes) to provide the same quality of physical attacks?  I suggest for gaming purposes that this would be entirely acceptable, especially if it plays into larger mechanics of game balance.

 

The suggestion about puzzles was me trying to think of the story interactions like the broken bridge where intelligence would play a strong role - there have been no specific mentions of this existing that I'm aware of.  I agree that a player should be able to solve large scale puzzles, but to not having intelligence should play into details given to the player about possible resolutions.  I feel like not doing this would be the developers building meta-gaming into the mechanics.

 

Fair enough, my apologies, it can be quite hard to read peoples intentions via text, i guess the dividing issue is really that many of us feel that magical damage and physical damage should be distinct.

 

I do understand your point regarding intellect affecting the quality of an physical attack however I consider this more of a perception/dexterity/instinct/skill or experience thing and i feel having a separate stat that defines critical hits kind of covers the additional damage through cleverness.

 

In addition to the above I would suggest that a lot of the intelligence defining physical damage in a tactical combat cRPG comes from the tactics themselves and therefore the player.

 

Again without trying to be too semantic all stats are inherently arbitrary, now using a Sherlock metaphor for intelligence:

 

20/20 Perception = Incredible powers of deduction, ability to infer things using any of the 5 senses that others could not.

20/20 Wisdom/Memory = Photographic catalog like memory.

20/20 Intellect =  Ability to join the dots, linking seemingly unrelated events/facts to produce a full picture.

01/20 Charasma = Sociopathic tendencies, unable to properly emphasize with other people or fully understand their motivations.

 

Don't really know what point I'm making above anymore other than that Intelligence is already a pretty broad thing without throwing physical damage/strength in there aswel, that and the fact that Sherlock is awesome lol.

 

Again sorry for accusing you of being argumentative, hopefully there can be more reasoned debate and some kind of middle ground can be found (not that it'll necessarily affect anything) but it is interesting to read the views of people in support of combined damage as i have to admit I really find it quite jarring.

[Lephys]

I agree, JFSOCC. IMHO, the change to Resolve has made it possible to use it as a dump stat for ranged classes. If they aren't being focused by being placed in the back of the lines then they don't need Resolve. It definitely needs something more. Increased in combat stamina regen would be a good one, but still can be unnecessary for back line characters. Reduced durations on negative effects is also good, but suffers from the same problem. People at the back will not necessitate concentration like those in the front unless the AI is really good which could be the case.

 

IMHO, Resolve now needs something offensive to make it more appealing to all classes. Because as I see it it now teeters really close to being useless with good positioning and tactics. It needs something that directly effects combat, and not indirectly by only working when the character is hit.

 

I have been silent on this change for the past day because I have been sick and have been thinking about what could be done to resolve to make it more interesting. I still haven't come up with anything. Just thought I would pop in and express my concern with Resolve. Otherwise I am fine with the changes to the Attributes and their function in combat. I just feel resolve got less appealing for many builds.

I fully comprehend these sentiments, and they're legitimate. We should be worried about making sure that's not the case. However, I don't anticipate good positioning and tactics somehow allowing you to just keep everyone away from harm at all times. You've got Rogues who basically have an action-roll-backstab that allows them to pretty easily circumvent engagers. And that's just one thing we know of. I'm sure there will be creatures that can charge through the ranks, or maybe even creatures who are drawn to magic-users like a moth to a flame, so it's all but impossible to keep them from your backline casters, at least conveniently or with any ease.

 

Also, I very much agree that Resolve should have some sort of defensive effect (durations for negative effects seems a really good fit, for some reason, JFSOCC). If that were the case, then, a la D&D (where there's an average for a stat, and below that you get penalties, and above you get bonuses), you could have a "Oh, you've got low Resolve 'cause you think you're safe on the backlines? Well, when that stun DOES finally hit you, you're gonna be stunned for 170% of the duration, 'cause you thought this was a dump stat! MUAHAHAHAHA!" situation.

 

Stuff like that.

 

Ehh, to put it simply, while I don't think it's dumb to consider potential bad designs and how they could affect things, there comes a certain line at which you're just saying "but would this design really be very good if the rest of the game happens to suck?". I think it's best to explore the effectiveness of design aspects in the context of otherwise good design. Because, either the team's after good design, or they aren't. So, if they're going to screw everything else up, and we're talking about a good idea that only works if everything else isn't screwed up, then what reason would they have to implement one good design in a sea of crappy contextual design?

 

I don't mean that to be hostile... I just think it's easy to express concern regarding stuff like "What if we don't really end up needing Resolve?". But, like I said, if they got the design of Resolve this far, and it's completely out of sync with the rest of the game, then what chance is there that any of our discussion/suggestion for how to make it good is even going to reach the devs or affect their choices in any way, if they weren't already concerned with Resolve being affective within their system?

[Ganrich]

Although, I don't disagree Lephys, I believe that an ability that only shows its use when 1) a character must be hit, and 2) that character must be performing an action that can be interrupted is much less uselful than one that works in most situations. All the while that number goes against the attackers perception because perception increases interrupting capabilities. That is pretty specific. That is where my issue lies.

 

Might - damage and healing will go up.

Constitution - health and stamina both are guaranteed to go up.

Dexterity - increases accuracy.

Percep. - you will have a higher chance to interrupt and perhaps get armor piercing increases.

Intellect - increased AoE and duration.

Resolve - concentration increases.

 

The only attributes that are based on "ifs" and "whens" are Constitution and Resolve. The other attributes do what they do when you use abilities and attacks. Constitution is good for many builds. It is reliant on being attacked though. However almost every creature has attacks that work vs hit points and stamina, and so it will be useful if the character is attacked every time. Will almost every creature have high perception to make high resolve worthwhile? Will the AI work to attack back line characters? Will the character be committing to an action that can be interrupted? Too many scenarios where those 3 questions will not be answered as yes IMHO to make heavily speccing into Resolve worthwhile at the moment.

 

It just seems strange to me that Resolve's value is now entirely in the hands of encounter design where none of the others are nearly as dependent, if at all. I just wish we could give it another boost to make it more interesting like it was prior to the redesign.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ganrich

[Lephys]

Fair enough, Ganrich. I understand.

 

I may not have this correct, but, I was under the impression that an interrupt affected whatever you were doing, be it moving, or casting, or swinging, or meditating, etc.

 

I would think that if you have a character just standing around, not doing anything that could possibly be interrupted, in the middle of combat, that you've got bigger problems than how often your Resolve is helping you. To be honest, I think you're assuming too much about the capabilities of preventing anyone from getting hit. Even IF you've got a Wizard 20 yards back casting spells, and everyone else is keeping everything else from hitting him, unless ALL your characters have high Resolve, all those frontline characters keeping the opponents from getting to your Wizard (with his piddly Resolve because you think he'll pretty much never get hit) are going to have a WAY tougher time of keeping all those opponents at bay when they're constanting having their movement and actions interrupted, wouldn't you say?

 

Plus, you act as though you're going to be guaranteed to be making attacks on things 90% of the time, and are only going to worry about being hit the other 10 or something. A) The whole time you're attacking foes, they're attacking you, so for every attack you make that gets significantly affected by a stat, there's going to be a reasonable amount of attacks made against you and your defenses, which are affected by THEIR stats (constitution -- how many hits you can take, Resolve -- whether or not you continue effectively doing things, or fidget around for a second before resuming).

 

I understand what you're saying, I do. I know I word stuff like a robot, and mostly it gets read as if not-a-robot typed it, so while I'm looking at the literal meaning, others are seeing other, subtle, implied meanings and such. But, really, to put it simply, anything you can do, the enemies could possibly do, too. If you can stun them, they can stun you. 2,000 Might and DEX doesn't do you much good if the enemies have a little less Might and DEX, but maximum Resolve, and your party gave up Resolve because you thought it wasn't useful with as much frequency. So, the foes are constantly interrupting everything you do, to the point where they get to make more attacks on you than you get to make on them, which kind of nullifies that whole hard damage/accuracy bonus you've got going on.

 

As a melee Fighter, for example, you've got to reach your target before any of that Might or DEX has any effect at all.

 

Granted, I'm not saying Resolve is MORE important than all the other things. But, it's a trade-off. If you're going to boost other stuff and leave it be, then you're going to have to deal with interrupt after interrupt after interrupt after interrupt. You should be able to build a valid strategy around that -- aroung mitigating your interrupts, etc. Being efficient with that party build. But, I wouldn't at all say that it's somehow less useful. That implies you're much less likely to be attacked than you are to attack, yourself. Which I really don't think is going to be true, because I'm assuming the game won't suffer horrible imbalance.

 

Again, please pretend a robot said all that, and it might make more sense. 8P Really, though, I hope it made sense. I am rather robotic.

[Ganrich]

If failed concentration checks stop everything then that is a different thing all together. Then again it would make it an attribute that keeps players from being annoyed, and that isn't a bonus in my eyes. However, I still see it as an issue. I have voiced my worries, and will hold back until a dev responds or until it is more nailed down. Obviously, it isn't nailed down with the changes coming pretty soon after Josh's initial pre-Christmas posts.

 

I do want to say that I am not saying Resolve is useless for every build, but that many ranged builds within the right team can use it as a dump stat. It will obviously be good for frontline characters, but IMHO it will be less good for ranged unless encounter design and AI make it useful. I don't like an attributes usefulness being reliant on encounter design and AI almost solely. The other attributes aren't reliant on encounter design. The only one seems to be (at a glance obviously) Resolve.

 

If we are trying to get rid of dump stats then I say Resolve needs more than it has in this layout.

[Lephys]

If failed concentration checks stop everything then that is a different thing all together. Then again it would make it an attribute that keeps players from being annoyed, and that isn't a bonus in my eyes. However, I still see it as an issue. I have voiced my worries, and will hold back until a dev responds or until it is more nailed down. Obviously, it isn't nailed down with the changes coming pretty soon after Josh's initial pre-Christmas posts.

Well, to be clear, I dunno what you mean by "stop everything," exactly, but they basically just temporarily intterupt things, I think. I'm not certain on this, but the reason I believe this is the way it is is because how Josh talked about the effects of breaking melee engagement as opposed to simply leaving melee engagement. He said that, if you don't "break" engagement, then when you run away and cross the engagement zone edge, your opponent gets a free attack (basically an attack of opportunity, in function), which causes a hit reaction, which, if you just kept trying to run, would slow you down for a moment while other person begins chasing you. That was in response to someone saying "couldn't you just take the hit and run off anyway?"

 

So... now, he's talked about Concentration affecting whether or not a hit causes a "hit reaction." So, I think it's a temporary interrupt (a "flinch," if you will) to any action you're taking, including movement. But, if you're casting a spell, I'd assume you'll resume once you're done flinching. OR, now I'm wondering... if you're melee-engaged with someone who has low Resolve, could you attack them to cause an interrupt, then break engagement for free simply by running? See... it's stuff like that.

 

I'm with you on the "we really need to know more to say anything for certain" bit, but... I guess that's why I'm saying what I am. Not that "No dude, Resolve will DEFINITELY be uber important, and sought after by all throughout the realm!", but just that "I don't think we can really say it's less important, right now, any more than we can say it ISN'T less important."

 

I do want to say that I am not saying Resolve is useless for every build, but that many ranged builds within the right team can use it as a dump stat. It will obviously be good for frontline characters, but IMHO it will be less good for ranged unless encounter design and AI make it useful. I don't like an attributes usefulness being reliant on encounter design and AI almost solely. The other attributes aren't reliant on encounter design. The only one seems to be (at a glance obviously) Resolve.

Ehhh, true. But, again, I think you're assuming there are going to be basically a bunch of encounters in which all your frontline people just hold everyone off, simply because you're employing good tactics, and encounters in which they can't because there are a bunch of ranged people, or you're surrounded, etc. I expect there to be ways in which to get certain characters into a pretty protected position, with enough effort and cleverness, even in "we're surrounded" scenarios, or in "there are a bunch of really-fast-moving things running around hitting everyone!" scenarios, etc. AND that there'll be ways in which for your enemies to make holding together a front line really tough. Sometimes it'll be easier, sure. And if you want to dump Resolve, you can. You just have to be ready when that character isn't able to be kept in a bubble, ya know?

 

That's true of almost anything. Armor. If you think your Mage isn't gonna get hit, 'cause you'll intentionally keep him protected, then you don't give him Godly Plate. He just wears lighter armor. But, when he DOES get hit, you'll wish he had better armor.

 

Also, I wouldn't really say that the other attributes aren't reliant on encounter design. If you're fighting in narrow, intricate corridors, then huge boosts to your AoE range aren't really doing much good, right? You can't hit a cluster of 12 enemies if there isn't room for 12 enemies to cluster. Heavily armored foes... your bonus damage from Might isn't really doing much good if you can't get through their armor. Your 0 (or 1, as a minimum, maybe?) damage is equivalent to that 4-Might character's 1 damage, at that point. Maybe you need more crits, then, in which case your DEX comes into play. Speaking of DEX, super agile/high-defense enemies. Your Might, once again, doesn't help if you can't hit them. Heck, your Perception doesn't interrupt if you can't hit them, either. And it certainly doesn't give you any benefits from armor penetration if they aren't wearing armor.

 

Everything's got tradeoffs, and I think they're designing this game specifically around that stat system, and viability balance and all that. So, I realize that, if you take it and plug it into other games we've played (with all their existing designs/encounters, etc.), you'd probably run into a lot of "Oh, this stat is way less useful most of the time, because of my strategy" situations.

 

However, I don't believe that'll be the case with PoE. They're building EVERYTHING from the ground up, including encounters and such. So, there's nothing forcing them to design the game such that Resolve is easily dumpable for characters you simply desire to protect from getting hit.

 

That being said, I do actually have to say that I feel like some stats just don't do as much as others. I don't think it has to do with the frequency of usefulness, as much as I think it's just sheer quantity of effect. Perception allows interrupts AND armor piercing bonuses, so if you're up against a foe with heavy armor AND low Resolve, you get two pretty big benefits from your 20 Perception. Whereas, with the one-effect ones, like Resolve, you only ever get one benefit, no matter what.

 

Even DEX sort of provides two benefits. 1) It allows you to hit more than miss, AND 2) it boosts the probability of higher-damage hits (hits instead of grazes, crits instead of hits). Against some foes, DEX will even be the deciding factor for whether or not you'll even be ABLE to crit.

 

So, yeah... I think that's probably worth a little concern, no matter what. But, as for the other stuff, I just personally feel like it's too much "maybe" and not enough inherent issue. But, I'm not here to tell you you're not allowed to worry about it. It's a valid thing to ponder, and I can't say with certainty that it won't be an issue, as you've presented it. I'm simply confident that they'll build the game to avoid those particular problems with stats being wibbly-wobbly in usefulness like that.

[Kjaamor]

It's not muscle fiber, it's what you're able to do with it. I'm pretty sure this guy could've put most of us in intensive care even at that point.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q16RBQ3BQIU

 

He died a week later.

 

Today, his wikipedia entry reads:

 

 

Yip Man (1 October 1893 – 2 December 1972), also spelled as Ip Man,^[2] and also known as Yip Kai-man, was a Chinese martial artist whom beat everybody up because he was boss. He had several students who later became martial arts teachers in their own right, including Bruce Lee.

 

xD

[Adhin]

@Lephys: I agree with what your saying about resolve and trade offs. But for the sake of argument again with Ganrich, from a min/maxer, they raaareely plan around the oh-**** scenario. I mean they literally don't plan for it. It doesn't exist in the perfect statistical world. Planning for it means taking away from stuff that makes dmg good. I think that's ultimately what hes getting at.

 

My first chars going to be a barb and for RP reasons, there will be resolve. He even has an ability (charge I believe) that lets him ignore all that tied up melee nonsense and practically teleport-fly to his destination of choice for more destruction. But if i was to make an archer and im trying to mix/max things (which is the tendency when anyone dump-stats) resolves.. ehh. It literally has no effect on ANY SKILL, or ANYTHING you do outside of being hit. Hell a lot of min/maxers ignore constitution cause... why do you need health if everythings already dead?

 

I can easily see someone super-focusing roles that way. High Con/Resolve fighters to muck up enemies with super might/accuracy nuker/archers to do most of the damage/dirty work. I mean sure it's all a trade off but that's what min/maxing is about. Trading all the crap that's situational for massive damage output so you can steamroll.  I've always been an RP-first, then painstakingly min/max to that RP'ed goal to get it 'just right'... but yeah, resolve will ultimately be a dump stat for a buncha builds (more so then con) if it has no effect on anything else.

 

It's stupid but... munchkins.

 

-edit-

LOL because he was boss... damnit Wikipedia...

Edited January 18, 2014 by Adhin

[Lephys]

^ No, I get it. It just... kind of assumes that an "I'll just focus on oodles of DMG" build automatically possesses the capability to nullify the need or benefit of any amount of Resolve or contingency plan.

 

We're just really used to games that don't really make it a big deal at all, I think. They just offer a bunch of alternatives. "Do you want to just shrug off all that damage, because you're uber-tank man? OR do you want to be ultra-high DPS man, so you can just kill things before they hit you, and/or stunlock them? Etc."

 

Not many games nowadays are built around actual dynamic combat factors, and tactical choices and consequences. Everything you do works equally well. "Oh no, a bunch of different enemies? Well, I do so much damage that, as long as I just focus fire and take this stuff down really quickly, I don't have to worry about my pathetic defenses! 8D!"

 

In PoE, there'll be plenty of stuff. "Wait, a whole group of heavily-armored foes? Crap, now 3 out of my 4 damage-focused people are like 50% less effective, so 'just focus fire and kill them so quickly they don't get to hurt anyone much' is no longer a valid tactic!" In such a case, you'll have to adjust your tactics. You can still make use of your damage, but you'll have to find a way to either hinder the enemy from attacking you and your own, or overcome the damage threshold of enemies' armor.

 

In other words, I don't think PoE will let you literally just deal damage, and have no other capabilities whatsoever. You can shift all your focus to damage, but then you just lessen your other core capabilities, not eliminate them. Thus, you have abilities such as "increase target's Accuracy by 10 for their next attack," etc. So, you have to use those with some modicum of tactical cleverness in order to overcome obstacles. One single focus and strategy will not cut it against some encounters/scenarios.

[Ganrich]

No offense intended here, Lephys. But you are assuming that Resolve may work in a manner that makes it as attractive an attribute as might or intellect. I am assuming it may not. I understand that if the encounters are designed to press resolve in every build that it might be ok. However, making Resolve more desirable IMHO would be easier and fun for us than making it a necessity of game design. I don't want to have the game require it in order to play without forgetting where I was walking every time I take damage. I would much rather it be more desirable from a fun factor perspective. Either way we are both making assumptions. I am normally a glass half full kind of guy, but I have seen how Attributes tied to only Reactive stats tend to become dump stats in RPGs when it isn't health. So, call me skeptical.

 

I am not looking at any modern games to base my fear of Resolve's potential caveats here. I am looking at the IE games, and "maybe" a little bit at the NWN games. Basically D&D cRPGs. Where wisdom and charisma are dump stats for many builds. Wisdom is a dump stat because it gives a defensive bonus to willpower saves, and Charisma is because it really just increases your characters like able personality. Of course for Clerics, Pallys, Sorcs, Bards, Druids, Rangers they aren't necessarily dump stats, but required stats. In the case of resolve we have a reactive stat, and that stat is only effective when the player is hit and when their Resolve is lower than the enemies Perception (the stats may roll vs one another for all I know). It does little else unless the character is hit. What if the character is a back line fighter and rarely gets hit? The stat is much less useful. To me the whole stat is dependent on positioning now, and that makes it much less desirable for back line characters.

 

I have been pondering this for a few days. I would try to give each Attribute an active and reactive effect. Might already has this. The only exception being Constitution because I can't think of a good idea for an active effect, and as of now it gets 2 really good reactive effects: health and stamina. Something like this:

 

Might - Active: Damage. Reactive: healing.

Con- Reactive: health and stamina.

Dexterity- Active: Accuracy. Reactive: Still thinking about this one.

Perception - Active: interrupt chance. Reactive: Increased chance to avoid Attacks of Opportunity.

Intellect - Active: AoE. Reactive: increased Skill Points.

Resolve - Active: Effect Duration. Reactive: Concentration.

 

Obviously, this isn't very well fleshed out. I haven't had time to really think it out, and honestly what little time I have though about it I have come up short on ideas. For instance, if I could think of something Active for Constitution then I would move Stamina to Dexterity in order to give it something Reactive. Also, Perception allowing the player to move with less chance of an AoO is an off the cuff idea, and I don't know if AoO is even in the game. I am also unsure if Intellect effects skill points or not but if it does then it doesn't need 2 very powerful Active effects tied to it as well.

 

Either way, IMHO the one thing the changes to the attributes did was make Resolve way less interesting, and as a byproduct it did the same for Perception. I wonder why the Critical Damage increase was removed from Perception? I guess because we needed a Stat to go against concentration. I can imagine that having increased Crit damage "and" higher chance to interrupt might make it a "must have" stat. I can just imagine a Dexterity/Perception build with high accuracy, Crit damage, and interrupt would demolish many encounters. That is my guess. If that is the case: I would move interrupt chance to Constitution (My only reasoning is from a balance standpoint, really), move Stamina to Dexterity, and then give Perception it's increased Crit Damage back.

 

Anyway, critiques are welcome here.

[Adhin]

Heh, stamina on dexterity, thats... that makes no sense.

 

As to the resolve thing, I have a feeling it wont be binary like it 'seems' to be. I mean, nothing in this game so far is, and they've gone out of their way to avoid it being such an on/off switch. That said, I don't think there will be such a thing as a 'stun lock'. Good chance it'll function like any other defense in the end and have varying degrees of success, most of which just 'slow' you down instead of 'stop' you dead in your tracks. I could see a 'crit-analog' for the concentration check resulting in a complete nullification of what your doing in the moment.

 

I just don't think a complete 100% lock down scenario makes sense for the way they've been doing things. Which ultimately means it'll end up probably being more of a slow down of your characters damage output then a full-stop with low resolve. Also, I don't think they're going to ever attach skill points to attributes. That is right up there with the way they're handling total skill point totals for 'cross class' stuff in DnD terms. That being, there are no 'cross class' just a class flat bonus. Adding total skill points to an attribute would create another massive gap.

 

And AoO aren't in the game the way they are in DnD. It's more of if you attempt to disengage by just 'running past' an enemy (its part of there lock down or sticky system thing) the attacker gets a free attack on you. It's a bit similar but it's more designed to keep enemies 'attached' to melee to allow for a proper defensive line (Fighters get a defensive stance allowing them to 'tie up' 3 enemies instead of the base 1). This also means casting a spell wont provoke an AoO, just normal attacks and a spells cast time giving ample opportunity for concentration checks. Which may just extend the cast time instead of just fully interrupt it but it may also do that (like I was saying above).

 

Last thing I'll mention is to keep in mind that ALL attributes have a 'reactive' component, or defensive really. Might and Con effect your Fortitude defense, Dex and Per effect Reflexes and Int/res for Psyche. I get the desire to want each attribute to do 2 things one offense and one defensive but getting bogged down with that as your theme can ultimately end up making a system that just makes no sense what so ever. Like adding physical damage to int or 'stamina' to dex. Don't get me wrong I don't think there current setups perfect by any means, I just don't think your current proposed list fits.

 

-edit-

@Lephys: Yeah, though in that scenario those damage dealers can just switch to maces and be as effective as they'd be normally. Or well, as effective as anyone would be. I agree this game looks to have a lot more dynamic scenarios for tactical play and that's fantastic. But I think it's a tad naive that people won't make pure damage characters just because of that wider range of tactical play.

 

As an example to what im talking about, I've seen people carry around multiple sets of armor and weapons in games with OUT this level of detail because in specific instances it would increase they're overall potential in some dungeon by a small 5% increase. That's the level of insanity we're talking about here. I think for the vast majority of people resolve will be a useful portion of there considerations. But that guy turning his rogue into the highest damage dealing character he can while he lets his party do the 'rest of it'... yeah hes gonna dump con and resolve like its a potato made of lava.

 

Granted, theres nothing anyone can do about that. If you where to change Resolve so it had a super important offensive thing then it just means said dmg spazzing wackjobs would do nothing but max resolve then. It's how it works, you either max it or you ignore it. I think considering those extremes are semi-pointless. In the end, the best way to combat that? Is to ensure the difference between 0 and 100% is minor. That's probably the biggest difference in most other games then straight DnD or PoE... the difference in damage potential. I mean in Diablo, as a quick example (well D2) you go from throwin' out 2-6 dmg at lvl 1, to something more like 7k 'average' at lvl 60. That's bull****, absurd bull****.

 

PoE wont have that, it'll be smaller varients, and dumping or mostly ignoring a stat wont screw you over, and maxing wont give you a massive benefit (hopefully). Skill use and position should be more important then your attribute placement. Attributes is where the RP comes in and is a nice, thin layer of delicious frosting on the tactical cake... or hopefully it is, hate those inch thick nasty fake frosting cakes, bleh.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Adhin

[Lephys]

Excellent stuff from both of you, really.

 

I just want to first clarify to you both that it is not my intent to suggest that (@Ganrich) Resolve will be necessary, or that (@Adhin) people won't make pure damage builds. All I mean is, I'm confident that low Resolve is going to be something you're going to have to deal with. Simply having a bunch of beefy damage dealers isn't going to just completely negate any and all need for Resolve. You're going to have to actively ensure that people don't hit that low-Resolve caster or ranged person very often. Which will be quite easy in many situations, and much more difficult in others. "Everyone else just kill everything before it gets to that person" is going to easier said than done, methinks.

 

It's not that you CAN'T do it. It's just that, the job's not done when you pick your build. Pure damage isn't going to passively negate any concern or effects of low non-damage-affecting stats.

 

And, clearly this all depends upon AI quality and a lot of other factors. But, all I'm saying is, based on the general idea they're working with to design the game in the first place, I'm confident that the stats will matter.

 

That being said, the more I think about it (and read others' thoughts as well), the more I'm convinced that "every stat should have a minimum of 2 effects" is a very good rule. The problem being that, it is significantly easier and more feasible to almost completely ignore one lone aspect of a character build (AoE size, concentration, health, base damage, etc.) than it is to ignore two. That's why I say that I understand when people bring up these concerns about this stat or that one. If you've got A B and C covered, you have a lot less need for D (not none at all, but a lot less). Whereas, if you had to choose between A and B, or C and D, there'd be a lot more significance on how you split your points between those parings, and just individual un-paired aspects.

 

This kind of thing has been touched on a lot in this thread (and similar threads), so I'm not claiming novelty. But, I'm just pointing out that the sheer jump from 1 factor to 2 for each stat seems to be of extreme benefit to the system, however you do it. In the interest of the whole "no dump stats" idea. It's not about making all the stats mandatory. It's about making them all potentially useful in different ways, and about making each build fit with a different playstyle, rather than sort of passively overriding the use of largely-ignored stats.

 

edit:

 

I think for the vast majority of people resolve will be a useful portion of there considerations. But that guy turning his rogue into the highest damage dealing character he can while he lets his party do the 'rest of it'... yeah hes gonna dump con and resolve like its a potato made of lava.

See, that's fine that he decides to do that, and he's still going to be an awesome damage dealer, but it's still a tradeoff. He's not going to magically posses the ability to never get hit, so, if he's got 4 Resolve and 4 CON, then every hit that DOES land on him is:

 

A) going to take him THAT much closer to unconsciousness/death than the characters with moderate or high CON, and

B) going to be THAT much more likely to interrupt his actions (including movement, thus increasing the risk of getting caught/hit by more foes, which leads back to point A), thus mitigating the effectiveness of his "pure damage."

 

In other words, if, over the course of a 1-on-1 fight with a foe, you would hit him 5 times, and he'd hit YOU 5 times, but because of your horrible Resolve, he interrupts you every single time he hits you, so you only hit him 3 times while he hits you 5, then you're looking at less damage for 5 hits versus more damage on 3 hits.

 

That's all I'm trying to say. Everything has an effect worth consideration. Doesn't mean you have to care much about it. You can ignore it, and just build what you want, but you can't just magically immunize yourself to the effects of your stat allocation decisions.

 

That Rogue who wants to do lots of damage AND has higher Resolve can see that foe that attacks 2 times per second and say "I can still effectively hit that guy," while the Rogue that has low Resolve is actually going to suffer greatly if he tries to take on that particular foe, as opposed to, say, an Ogre who only attacks once every 4 seconds. Of course, likewise, the Rogue with high CON and low Resolve is going to be even LESS worried about the increased damage of the Ogre. The Rogue with low CON and high RES might consider going after that smaller, faster-attacking foe, whom he:

 

A) can take down more quickly, thanks to his high damage versus the thing's lesser health pool, and

B) won't have to worry about its fast attack speed being a problem for interruptions (high RES), and

C) doesn't have to worry as much about incoming damage, relative to his Health (low CON).

Edited January 24, 2014 by Lephys

[Adhin]

Yeah, I agree. Issue's finding 2 stat per attribute that actually fits. I honestly don't think they 'have' enough things for that. Talking about purely passive things that have either 0 basis on skill uses or have a universal effect such as AoE. I think that's one of the biggest issues folks have been running into with the ideas around here, also why i think while it's a good idea it's not one anyone should tie them selves too.

 

As a side note, if resolve works like I was saying above (slows down, not completely stop outside of the rare occasion) then It's both a damage and reactive attribute all in 1. I mean, less useful to the rogue who doesn't get hit to often, but still useful when the situation arises, but would benefit a skirmisher like a Barb who maybe going some one on one or 2 on-one battles while fighters tie up some others.

 

Oh, which reminds me, Ganrich, instead of skill points (since I think that would screw up there no-attribute giving skill points system to much since its.. the opposite of that) Crit Damage isn't anywhere and would fit Int just fine. or... some other attribute as an offensive one. I'd DEFINITELY never want it on DEX, however due to how defenses and accuracy works. Dexterity already governs chance to hit and by extension how often you crit, throwing crit dmg on that would be crazy talk.

 

Getting 2 unique effects that don't contradict anything on all 6 attributes is a hell of a puzzle.

[Lephys]

Yeah, I know it's tricky. I just meant that, ideally, it seems like just having 2 factors affected instead of 1 makes the stat more likely to be significant, even if one aspect is more minor than the other. Ganrich's active and reactive example fits well with that. Yeah, it still matters what the factors are, and it's not exactly easy to just whip a bunch of pairs of factors out of thin air or anything.

 

As for the Rogue example, I guess what I'm trying to say is, none of the stats allow you to simply not-get-hit (which is exactly why I think Josh has expressed specific concern over stats governing Deflection, which is the most prominent "avoid getting hit" defensive value). So, no matter what build you create, you can only mitigate the getting-hit frequency SO much. There's not like a "well, I'm high damage, so I just don't get hit" build. Thus, if you make a high damage Rogue who dumps Resolve and CON, you're going to have to actively do what you can, in your combat tactical decisions, to make the best use of your high-damage-supporting build whilst also not getting hit nearly as much as other builds, because you can't afford to get hit as much as they can.

 

Also, @Ganrich:

 

I forgot that I was going to say this... attacks of opportunity are in, sort of... in function, anyway. They occur whenever someone leaves melee engagement range without first breaking engagement. So, simply put, if two melee fighters are duking it out, and one just turns around and runs (or really just-plain-runs off in ANY direction), the other fighter gets a free attack when the flee-er leaves some defined radius. Similarly, if anyone simply tries to run past a melee combatant, (or, I think, any melee-capable combatant? Not sure), they basically enter melee engagement, then leave it without breaking it, thus incurring a free attack.

 

So, yeah, functionally the same thing. The specific rules are just a little bit different.

[Adhin]

I think that may only work against foes who aren't activately 'engaged' with something. Example, Fighter in defensive stance is taking on 3 enemies, and a barbarian is taking on 3 and your 'rogue' runs past the group (close enough for engagement) to try to get into a flank. Running to the fighter I think wont incur the engagement penalty because the fighters currently tying up all 3. The barbarian though is only tying up 1 of the 3, so the other 2 are 'free' to force an engagement on the rogue trying to run past to get behind.

 

...But that all aside it's pretty damn close to an AoO, well it is, it just has more rules and systems tied to it, and has no effect on anyone casting a spell in melee range. AoO in DnD can effect so many things it's kind of silly (but makes sense in that game, for the most part).

 

 

-edit-

Ahh when I said actively engaged I meant weren't currently tied up via the other combatant. Think that was apparent in my example but wanted to try to avoid any confusion with how I worded it. Barb example was only engaging against 1 enemy, even if 3 where 'attacking' him, 2 aren't tied up or in a full engagement state so they're free to run off and engage something else with out incurring any penalty, since the barbs tied up with his current target he can't take that AoO-like attack on them.
 

That's the big benefit of the Fighter really, it's what his main role is.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Adhin

[Ganrich]

Yeah, Adhin,I agree, to an extent, that Dexterity and Stamina don't make much sense.  I was firing from the hip for sure.

 

Lephys, I definitely understand.  You will almost always be trading off benefits in an RPG Attribute system.  I just want to be clear that when the costs of putting points into Resolve have less benefit than putting points in other attributes you are looking at a dump stat.  That is how I see Resolve at the moment.  Resolve would be good for Tank builds and front line fighters in theory.  However, taking Adhin's explanation of AoO in PE... If those tanks can somewhat lock down many of the opponents then you have Resolve being less desirable for Ranged characters.  That is what I want to be looked at.  It goes against 2 of Josh's desires for the system:  1)  Resolve isn't something desirable for all classes and has less functionality for ranged classes (barring building the games encounters and AI around it), 2)  It is a potential dump stat.  Of course AoO may be much more limited as you guys have suggested. 

 

On the note of 2 effects per Attribute... It really is something I think needs to happen.  I would prefer one Active and one Reactive per Attribute, but it is tricky enough without that extra guideline.  The more I think about it the more I realize how incredibly difficult it is to come up with that many effects.  Much less equally desirable ones.  I would almost recommend moving to a 5 attribute system (scrapping perception since its non-combat influences could be easily divided out to Dexterity, Intellect, and maybe Resolve.), but it would have an adverse effect on Sawyer's Save system since 2 attributes feed each save type:  Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower (can't remember their terms in PE). 

 

Also, Skill points were another thing I was just tossing out, but I wasn't aware of how they were being handled so thank for telling me.  I am all for skill points not being derived from an Attribute. 

 

I am going to keep thinking on 2 effects for each Attribute without changing very much in the current scheme of things.

 

EDIT:  @Lephys - Giving Intellect both Critical Damage increase and AoE (or Duration) could be very over powered.  If that were to happen then I would move AoE and Duration elsewhere... which would leave me inclined to letting it reside with Perception and moving that stuff around.  Whatever Attribute gets Critical Damage increase needs to have its second effect Reactive for sure.  At least IMHO. 

Edited January 25, 2014 by Ganrich

[Lephys]

Lephys, I definitely understand.  You will almost always be trading off benefits in an RPG Attribute system.  I just want to be clear that when the costs of putting points into Resolve have less benefit than putting points in other attributes you are looking at a dump stat.  That is how I see Resolve at the moment.  Resolve would be good for Tank builds and front line fighters in theory.  However, taking Adhin's explanation of AoO in PE... If those tanks can somewhat lock down many of the opponents then you have Resolve being less desirable for Ranged characters.  That is what I want to be looked at.  It goes against 2 of Josh's desires for the system:  1)  Resolve isn't something desirable for all classes and has less functionality for ranged classes (barring building the games encounters and AI around it), 2)  It is a potential dump stat.  Of course AoO may be much more limited as you guys have suggested.

 

I understand. That's part of my "I think everything needs 2 effects" thinking. Relative to other stats, it really doesn't seem to be as significant in as many different situations, etc. I'm not trying to deny that. I'm only attempting to emphasize the idea that I don't think it's as dumpable as you think. In other words, the value of Resolve on your character, by itself (not in comparison to other stats) isn't really so insignificant just because, for example, you've got a ranged build.

 

Look at it this way: If your tanks can lock down your foes, then cannot your foes' tanks lock down YOUR tanks? If you have 1 tank and 1 ranged person, and you come up against an identical shadow-clone party, what's to stop the enemy tank from preventing YOUR tank from getting to the enemy ranged guy to keep him from constantly targeting YOUR ranged guy, who has dumped Resolve, and therefore gets interrupted by almost every single hit?

 

That's all I'm trying to say. Obviously, if you specifically utilize tactics to minimize the amount of hits your ranged guy is going to take, then he'll take fewer hits than if you just weren't caring. But, I don't think there's anything that guarantees you the ability to simply keep that guy from completely getting hit. And, with Resolve, it doesn't even matter how much damage is being done. It only matters how often you're getting hit. That's what I'm saying. So, you could even be completely "out of harm's way" and still have non-lethal attacks constantly pelting you. Add another foe who gets to attack that character, and you're getting hit TWICE as frequently, with each hit very likely producing an interrupt delay on whatever action you're taking, including relocating to get out of range again, etc.

 

I'm simply emphasizing that, because I think a lot of people are thinking Resolve is somehow definitely mostly pointless unless you just specifically plan on getting hit a lot (like a frontline Monk or something). It's definitely less useful if you're on the backlines and don't plan on wading into the fray, BUT, it could very well still be SORELY missed if you just dump it. It's like CON in D&D. If you're a Wizard, you don't plan to soak up damage or anything, but then, if you take 4 CON, you're going to have like 2 HP at level 1, and suffer a penalty on every level-up. So, while some other Wizard, at level 7 or so, might be able to actually take a few hits, you have to spend THAT much more effort ENSURING that your Wizard doesn't even take ONE hit, lest he die instantly.

 

As for the 2 effects per stat thing, I realize it's quite tricky. But, I'd recommend looking at Wasteland 2's setup. I can't comment on whether or not it's perfect or anything, but it has a pretty good general idea; the effects overlap. I think there are 3 or 4 different stats that affect your number of Action Points, for example. Thus, if you pump all 4 of those (for whatever reason -- they do other things, too, often more potently than affecting action points), you have the MOST action points. If you pump only 2, you have fewer, but still many. If you only pump one, you have the fewest action points (aside from pumping 0). But, the odds of you dumping 4, or even 3, given stats is pretty slim. Again, especially since they have different uses. But, that works pretty well. You can't just take one and dump the other 3 unless you just don't care about having many action points, but there's not just one thing to pump to max out your action points.

 

EDIT:  @Lephys - Giving Intellect both Critical Damage increase and AoE (or Duration) could be very over powered.  If that were to happen then I would move AoE and Duration elsewhere... which would leave me inclined to letting it reside with Perception and moving that stuff around.  Whatever Attribute gets Critical Damage increase needs to have its second effect Reactive for sure.  At least IMHO.

Ehh... I'm just not so sure. I've gotta think about that a bit. I mean, you've only got so many points to allocate. So, say all the stats are 0-10 (I know 0's weird... it's an example, and I need symmetry for it), and they all start at 5, and you get 5 points to allocate. If you put them all in INT, then you have awesome crit damage (the highest you can get, minus all other factors that aren't mutually exclusive with your core stats -- gear, buffs, etc.)... when you crit. You still only have 5 DEX, and 5 MIG, so your base damage isn't very high (which is what your critical damage is derived from) and your chance to crit isn't very high. If someone were to put 3 points into MIG and 2 points into DEX, for example (so, 8 MIG, 7 DEX, all other stats 5), they'd most likely be critting far more often than your 10-INT character, and dealing more base damage, and thus higher crit damage (than average, though not as much as your 10-INT character) more often.

 

That's just one example. The point is, by having such a specific aspect (crit damage), it changes how effective you are based on how you play and the circumstances in which you find yourself. So, I really don't think it's over-powered at all. I mean, obviously, if you just want to be an uber-damager, pumping MIG, DEX, and INT (if it affected crit damage) would be the ideal build. But, that's where stat-allocation balancing comes in. Who's to say that, to do that, you won't need to drop CON, RES, and PER down to like 1 or 2? And, if you do that, then you have to put up with:

 

A) Hardly ever interrupting enemies' actions, ever, with your attacks.

B) Suffering in the armor penetration department (so armor much more effectively diminishes your awesome damage)

C) Getting interrupted, yourself, way more often than other characters.

D) Falling unconscious and/or dying in far fewer hits than anyone else.

 

So, when you take 2 hits and have to kind of run away to regen a little stamina, someone else, who, granted, deals less damage than you per-strike, is still standing there, with their higher CON, dealing more damage. AND when the whole enemy force is armored (or a lot of them, at least), you're damage-dealing bonus is lessened in comparison to someone with higher PER. Etc.

 

PLUS, this is the situation I was suggesting gets eliminated by the 2-effects-per-stat thing:

 

If INT affects AoE range, and you're barely ever going to use any AoE's, you still get the perfectly-useful effect of having your crits do more damage. Thus, the check for "should I take some INT?" isn't just "am I going to be using many AoEs?". Much like the Resolve situation. If Resolve did 2 things, then, even if you weren't particularly concerned with not-being-interrupted (because you were going to take every effort you could in not-getting-hit), Resolve would still do SOMEthing else for you (maybe it affects knockdown? Or effect duration? *shrug*).

 

Anywho, my point is simply in the relationships throughout the system. Obviously the tricky part is pegging the exact values/pairings needed to get the system to work in harmony.

[Adhin]

Been wanting to just think up a list of stats to have effected in general, based off what they've said so far just to see how many in total there are (that I can come up with, anyone). So.. yeah im gonna just list here and see what I come up with, oh and ignoring defenses since that's an obvious unchanging one atm.+6

 

-Current ones from update 70-

Effect Magnitude (damage/healing)

AoE size

duration

Accuracy

Interrupt

Concentration

Penetration (guess this ones for bypassing armor?)

Health

Stamina

----------------

Crit-Damage

Combat movement speed

 

That's... about all I can think of that wouldn't be extremely overpowered such as crit-range. So let's see...

 

Mig: Damage / Healing

Con: Health / Stamina

Dex: Accuracy / Movement Speed

Per: Penetration / Interrupt

Int: AoE / Crit-Damage

Res: Concentration / Duration

 

Part of me wants to split up stamina from health and throw it in resolve but I can't think of what would fit Con outside of combat movement but that should definitely be on dex. Anyway, yeah that's best I can come up with which is pretty much what you had Ganrich, but movement speed on Dex, and crit-dmg. Keep in mind, Duration and AoE are both offensive and defensive, they're ultimately utility attributes that just happen to effect damage related stuff half the time.

[Ganrich]

Lephys, I don't disagree. I just see a party built around 1 AoE mage being potentially "the" power gamer build. You have 5 Characters to help play keep away for the mage against the enemies, and spec the mage heavy in Intellect and Dexterity. I am not saying this will not have trade offs, but it might end up incredibly cookie cutter for certain classes with AoE and Crit being placed on Intellect together.

 

@Adhin - the only effect I can think of that you didn't mention is attack speed, but iirc It's been mentioned and not something likely to be implemented.

 

I actually thought about moving stamina to Resolve and Concentration to Constitution. A sturdy individual would be less prone to being interrupted. I think Concentration could be argued to work with Constitution, but Resolve definitely makes as much, if not more, sense.

 

I actually like keeping stamina and health separate for more build variety. As long as the difference (using Dnd numbers here) isn't huge between 10 and 18 on each stat so you can't be killed in a single fight because you are all stamina and little health. Or vice versa, and go down like a cheap suit every fight but can go 8 fights like that.

[Adhin]

Yeah, pretty sure the bulk of health will be level based, hoping they don't use the DnD style of hp-per-lvl from attributes. That is where DnD gets wildly out of hand. You start with little to no health then that doubles at lvl 2, then just keeps going, con adds a small amount... per lvl. That's probably my biggest complaint with how DnD handles anything is its HP. I'd prefer a larger starting pool of health at lvl 1 with a smaller gain per lvl (static gain, based off class) with static, unchanging health points per attribute.

 

For instance, instead of a Fighter starting with 10 hp then gaining 1-10 per lvl (or just halving 10 or going with a max value for the sake of it being less stupid) and then throwing per-lvl +1 per 2 con. Something more like starting with 50 health at lvl 1 and gaining 5 health, per level, with +5 health per vitality. At 18 vitality that'd be +80 hp that never changes, would make battles at early lvls less awkward and that shift wouldn't change as much as you level up. Like, take a maxed Con barb, no items lvl 1, that's 16 hp at lvl 1. if its a max roll (or you just ignore rolling) at lvl 20, all points in Con (cause of rage) your looking at 360 hp. 16, to 360. I mean I like growth and all but that's kinda crazy. If you do a more static approach like above, that'd be 60 base +80, so 140 base hp at lvl 1 for the Barb, and 239 at level 20 with the 23 Con. That's not quite double the HP for all those level, little more of a slow burn. That's kinda how im hoping PoE is.

 

Anyway, Concentration is on Con in DnD (as a skill for the same general effect) so you can easily argue for it but I definitely like it on resolve more. And I did consider attack speed but, like crit-range i felt it was a bit to overpowered but I guess for different reasons. If Concentration/Interrupt works the way I think it does (and it very well may not) then attack speed increase would be a more powerful version of concentration in most situations. On top of that its a rather large force multiplier much like a massive crit-range.

 

Basically, I think attack speed is best left up to short duration buffs via an array of skills instead of being something you can pump up. If it's something you can pump it would have to be a percentage to keep it even-ended on DPS output across all weapons. This gives it the largest obvious benefit to slower weapons which cuts away more at there speed then it does with fast weapons. Ultimately it brings them closer together and starts to nullify some of the major differences (if that's even in, I guess, 3E doesn't even use it the same way).

 

Was kinda thinking of Duration on Con, could always come up with some reason for that... could really come up with a silly reason with Duration for any of them really. It's an insanely abstract effect that has no real ties to any attribute. AoE less so as I can more easily see INT having the most 'right' to effect it. As much as I like the idea of HP and SP being separated I think the list I just put up has less issues then some others I had in mind.

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I agree with your assessment of D&D HP, and definitely agree it gets ridiculous. I also agree that PE should steer away from the huge differences from starting health and high level health.

 

Yeah, attack speed is definitely something that could easily throw a monkey wrench in everything very easily.

 

resolve makes much more sense for concentration, but I would be fine if concentration went to constitution to split up health and stamina again. I also forgot Constitution governed Concentration in 3E/3.5. Completely slipped my mind.

 

I would be much more happy with the list you gave than what we are currently seeing. I would be even happier if we split health and stamina again, but I am fine either way.