Stamina Regeneration POLL (Merge?)

[Lephys]

pretty sure it's instant-regen. the whole point of the stamina mechanism and per-encounter abilities is so devs only need to calibrate fights against a fully-functional party

 

Yeah... I recall Josh saying that stamina regen will be slower (and variable) in combat, then effectively instantaneous (really, really fast) outside of combat/encounters. And I would have to wager that's with a pretty liberal delay, to make sure you're not still "in-combat," so you can't just run 30 feet away and hide behind a tree for 2 seconds of ultra-fast stamina regen, then "re-enter" combat because that foe caught up to you and found you behind the tree.

[neo6874]

 

 

• PE - a L1 fighter might have 5 HP, and 100 stamina. You'll burn stamina just by fighting, and the losses from getting hit are more representative of the cuts, scrapes, and bruises you get as the other guy's attacks connect ... but you don't actually lose "1HP" til you're outta stamina and the bad guy can get a square hit on your jaw ... or stab you in the leg with his dagger, etc...

 

No, that L1 Fighter will drop in one or two hits, because after taking 20 damage, he will be at 0HP.

 

 

yeah, I got it screwed up somewhere and applied it as "no HP damage til you lose all your stamina" rather than "every 4 points of stamina is 1 point of HP"

[Helz]

 

25% ? I assume its an arbitrary number. As for the last, I like the barbarian ability that allows him to ignore moving penalties and rush at your undefended weak behind.

Stamina Damage is converted to Health Damage at a ratio of 4:1.

 

[snip]

This is assuming that there will be no abilities in the game that change that ratio, or even bypass stamina completely.  I strongly doubt that's the case, because there are all sorts of interesting possibilities for attacks/spells that Obsidian would be overlooking.  

 

I voted for the first option, because otherwise you're just going to be waiting around for it to charge up anyway.  If the developers want to throw in multiple encounters to force you to conserve your stamina, they can have them trigger in succession. 

 

FInally, to the OP, I can't say I like your idea for a hardcore mode that makes stamina scarce for low level characters, but bountiful for higher levels.  I feel that higher levels should have more options for burning their stamina, but still be limited by it.  Otherwise you've just trivialized combat for higher level characters in a big way.

[Mor]

 

 

You do not need to worry about your Health until you are down to 25% or less.

 

This is the only time you will need to be careful, and even then if you do not have Permanent Death on, it's not a huge deal unless you get multiple characters down below 25% Health, you can always micro low HP characters to the back and have them use long range weapons to stay out of the fight (at a marginal efficacy cost).

25% ? I assume its an arbitrary number. As for the last, I like the barbarian ability that allows him to ignore moving penalties and rush at your undefended weak behind.

 

Stamina Damage is converted to Health Damage at a ratio of 4:1.

 

[snip]

 

uhm.. I am not certain how the health damage ratio relates to your previous statement, which I read as "You do not need to worry about your Health until its low.." Edited December 7, 2013 by Mor

[Osvir]

FInally, to the OP, I can't say I like your idea for a hardcore mode that makes stamina scarce for low level characters, but bountiful for higher levels.  I feel that higher levels should have more options for burning their stamina, but still be limited by it.  Otherwise you've just trivialized combat for higher level characters in a big way.

 

You forget that enemies "scale" somehow and somewhat in Eternity, exactly how is unclear. I don't remember all info on this one but level scaling anyways, in some kind of way. Similarly, fatigue and stamina is something you can train and get better at, so by leveling up you get +10 Stamina perhaps because you've worked out and been active and doing stuff.

 

It's how it usually goes. But I agree, there'd be new abilities and ultimately, even at highest level, abilities that cost much more than those initial moves. Which means you'd have to plan how to use them, do you use all of your multi-super strong abilities that costs most right away or do you save them for harder battles later ahead?

Edited December 7, 2013 by Osvir

[Osvir]

If you work out for a couple of weeks you'll see results, it's not top of the notch, but definately results.

A Level 1 Character would correspond a person who doesn't train or practice much. Level 4 could jog longer, fight longer, stay up longer, beat some baddies or choose to use guile and shadows. etc. etc. but even for a Level 4 character it would still get weary at night. Hypothetically, put yourself in the situation where you have to fight a guy, and you are well-rested and well fed, you'd handle the situation better than if it's late and you've been active all day, you'd be more tired. But when you're Level 8 you'd be more alert and hyper, stronger and more confident, thus have more stamina as well. Having more energy and health, you'd be able to take out baddies both morning and night. But monsters would also eventually get stronger and stronger as the game progresses, perhaps even scale differently day and night, so challenge remains throughout the game. New abilities costing more stamina.

Related by reason why the character would be Level 1 to begin with (and have low Stamina): An idea that could explain why the character is weak to begin with psuedo-lore, Soul of the Watcher is sent into a soulless body, or combines souls (Kingdom Hearts-ish*) with some low level character which the player creates? So the Player could be a simple villager or farmer who gains the soul of a Warrior (Watcher). That's a method for origins btw.

* For those who doesn't know Kingdom Hearts, Ventus, a boy who fragments his heart, lost in the void, Sora invites him and they join hearts.

[Sensuki]

This is assuming that there will be no abilities in the game that change that ratio, or even bypass stamina completely.  I strongly doubt that's the case, because there are all sorts of interesting possibilities for attacks/spells that Obsidian would be overlooking.

I already stated that in my post in the very first line. Please read a bit more carefully.

 

(not counting spells or abilities or whatever that alter this ratio)

The Barbarian class loses health at a different ratio to other classes (ie, they lose heath slower and are therefore more durable over the course of an adventuring day). This is an exclusive Barbarian class ability and in Project Eternity there is no overlapping of class features (as stated by Josh Sawyer, the lead designer) so there will most likely be no abilities or talents that other classes can take that alter this ratio.

 

It is not impossible that some enemies will be able to sap your Health at a different ratio to your stamina, but it is unlikely and if such abilities do exist, they are probably rare.

 

uhm.. I am not certain how the health damage ratio relates to your previous statement, which I read as "You do not need to worry about your Health until its low.."

Can you explain what you mean? Because you have a habit of quoting my posts and questioning their validity when you are obviously new to Project Eternity and do not have a full grasph of the mechanics.

 

In one encounter you can only ever lose roughly 25% of your health, because you lose Health at a 1:4 ratio with Stamina. If you have 100 Stamina, then you can only ever take 100 Stamina damage in an encounter. This means that in one encounter, you can only ever take ~25% damage to your Health. At 0 Stamina that character is KO'd and out of the fight, when the fight is over they will get back up, their stamina will regenerate to full over a short period of time - but their health will not. Health is a daily resource. Stamina is a per-encounter resource.

 

It is possible that if you had a character on 8 Stamina and they took 20 damage, that they would drop to 0 Stamina and take 5 Health Damage from that attack, rather than 2, but you'd have to ask Josh about that.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

Can you explain what you mean? Because you have a habit of quoting my posts and questioning their validity when you are obviously new to Project Eternity and do not have a full grasph of the mechanics.

 

In one encounter you can only ever lose roughly 25% of your health, because you lose Health at a 1:4 ratio with Stamina.

Are you certain of that? Because the idea that you can't die/maimed during a single fight, only loose ~25% of your health is ridicules.

 

Yes normally you soak up 1 point of damage for each 3 points stamina damage dealt. But no one said that you have the same amount of health and damage, that your stamina isn't regenerated/depleted during that combat(actively/passively) or that you can't attack an unconscious character until he is maimed/killed.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Mor

[Sensuki]

Are you certain of that? Because the idea that you can't die/maimed during a single fight, only loose ~25% of your health is ridicules.

 

Yes normally you soak up 1 point of damage for each 3 points stamina damage dealt. But no one said that you have the same amount of health and damage, that your stamina isn't regenerated/depleted during that combat(actively/passively) or that you can't attack an unconscious character until he is maimed/killed.

That is the case yes. Josh Sawyer stated that units currently have the same amount of health and stamina. I will find the quote later as I have to go out.

 

I am also not advocating the design decision as I have no problem with 1HK permadeath spells and the like.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

That is the case yes. Josh Sawyer stated that units currently have the same amount of health and stamina. I will find the quote later as I have to go out.

That is interesting. I wonder if this means that stamina amount is determined according to your max HP or current HP per battle(which IMO would make this poll even more pointless).

 

Regardless:

no one said that ... your stamina isn't regenerated/depleted during that combat(actively/passively) or that you can't attack an unconscious character until he is maimed/killed.

i.e. I still don't agree with your assertion that "In one encounter you can only ever lose roughly 25% of your health".

[Sensuki]

Just in case you were referring to HP as Hit Points, there is no Hit Points. There is Stamina Points and Health Points, which from the last known piece of information are gained at the same rate.

 

Here are some quotes

 

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post411377667

 

Stamina is short-term, Health is long-term. Stamina can be healed by magic and also regenerates on its own. Health can only be healed by resting. You lose Health at a 1:4 ratio from Stamina

 

 

I *think* I see why you disagree, and that is because of this missing piece of information.

 

 

Damage in Project Eternity is tracked in decimals so so if you take three points of damage, you still take 0.75 Health damage.

 

Let me re-iterate.

 

Let's say I have a Fighter with 100 Stamina and 100 Health Points, which based on the above (quote from January 2013, but no new info on that fact since) which states Health:Stamina are gained by characters at a 1:1 ratio is correct.

 

The above info also states that for every four points of damage you take, you lose four points of stamina, and one point of Health. Damage is also fractional, as stated above, so there is no way to avoid taking Health Damage.

 

Now if your character that has 100 Stamina/100 Health (which I will just refer to as 100HP) takes 100 damage in an encounter, then your character will be KO'd in that encounter and they will have lost 100 Stamina Points and AT LEAST 25 Health Points, because we do not know if on the terminal hit whether the damage that goes past 0 Stamina is still subtracted from Health, but I would think that it is.

Most of the time that would equate to roughly 25% of total health damage, except in extreme edge cases where your character has 1 Stamina Point left and they take a lot of damage - let's say 40 damage and as a result they take 10 Health Damage. In this case the value is much higher than 25% depending on your total amount of HP (Stamina and Health Points).

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[Sabotin]

I'd assume KO'd characters are instakilled by a direct attack (think coup-de-grace from D&D), but enemies will most likely ignore downed members.

 

You can certainly lose more than 25% health per encounter though, counting various forms of stamina healing and regeneration. So optimally you want to take the least damage possible, regardless of healing capabilities. I wounder if this will affect gameplay, prompting players to take less risky actions or something.

 

A part that I find unintuitive is also that the health damage is mirrored at a certain ratio as opposed to be a part of the damage dealt. So if you take a 20 point hit you take 20 stamina damage + 5 health damage, which would total 25. Maybe it's easier to manage changes like this, like the barbarian taking damage at 6:1 ratio is a definite bonus instead of a double edged sword.

[Sensuki]

Indeed, I wasn't taking healing into account though I was mostly just trying to explain the system to people as it seems there are a large number of people who didn't understand how it worked.

 

My examples all use a specific amount of damage. For instance I said 100 damage and if you take 100 damage and you have 100 Stamina/100 Health, you have taken 25 Health Damage.

 

Thought I did make the statement that you won't ever take more than 25% Health Damage in an encounter in an above post and that is indeed incorrect. Sorry about that.

 

As far as enemies attacking downed foes, I do not believe they will even target them. I asked Josh Sawyer about this way back in 2012 and he believed that enemies should prioritize party members that are still alive. We are also not sure if downed party members take health damage from AoE spells, but you would assume so.

 

On standard difficulty your characters can't actually die, you have to actually enable permadeath, so I'm not sure what happens then. But I believe AI will just target standing party members until the last one falls, rather than 'maim' a downed foe.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[SophosTheWise]

Screw most people. If devs listened to most people every game would have automatic win buttons and sh1t.

 

Health Regen speed could be something tied to difficulty or modes. Slower Health Regen could be an Expert mode feature or something, then Gfted1 can just chuck on his dontwannamanageanything mode and be happy.

That's not what my argument was about. It's just useless to implement a difficulty modifier which is easily exploitable. Same with the resting mechanics in BG.  It's just trash/degenerate gameplay, and honestly, nobody can blame "most people" for waiting until their stuff is regenerated. Because that's the smart thing to do. Just rushing into the next battle is hilariously stupid, nobody in their right mind would do that. 

 

Having health regenerate over time inherently asks for waiting, in my opinion. Everything else is vanity.

[Infinitron]

 

Stamina is supposed to be per-battle, so the only point of making it not recharge immediately is if you want to add a little bit of tension when one battle is immediately followed by another. Which might be cool.

 

Still, that won't work for most people because they can just wait after a fight.

 

 

What I meant is that there might be situations when you get ambushed and aren't able to wait (in before DA2 combat waves)

[Sensuki]

That's not what my argument was about.

I know I realized yesterday that I misinterpreted what you said. Edit button was gone by then.

[Mor]

Indeed, I wasn't taking healing into account though I was mostly just trying to explain the system to people as it seems there are a large number of people who didn't understand how it worked.

Ohhh for gods sake  the only thing I don't understand is why have you been going about 1:4 again, again and gain. I don't know if its my poor English or you just trying to win some unknown argument, but from the start the issue ever been the same. Your statement that we "do not need to worry about your Health until you are down to 25% or less" because your assumption that "In one encounter you can only ever lose roughly 25% of your health"

 

I can't make it more simple than "losing Health at a 1:4(25%) ratio with Stamina" =/=> "loosing 25% health in an encounter" i.e. which is "ridicules" notion as I said.

 

I also explained why:

no one said that ... your stamina isn't regenerated/depleted during that combat(actively/passively) or that you can't attack an unconscious character until he is maimed/killed.

Expanding on that:

1. We know that stamina is design as quickly lost and rapidly regained resource. That fighter have a passive ability that auto regenerates Stamina, Priest can regenerates Stamina for allies, Paladins can revive unconscious allies with Stamina boost, Monks has special ways to deal with damage taken etc etc.

2. When Stamina reach 0 you fall unconscious, when Health reach 0 you are dead/maimed, no one said that you can't attack an unconscious character.(in fact I'd argue that would be the most advantageous tactic for the AI)

 

So if stamina is rapidly changing resource, your calculation with initial stamina levels is pointless other then trying to reach your 25% obsession or showing the minimum damage a character who fell unconscious will take.

 

To sum it up in someone else words, in the most simplistic way:

You can certainly lose more than 25% health per encounter.

Also like I said that info about stamina/health levels, is both intriguing and new to me, thank for bringing it, but it has no bearing to the above(other than explain your calculation)

Edited December 7, 2013 by Mor

[Sensuki]

Shoulda just mentioned the word healing bro and I would have known exactly what you were talking about. After Sabotin posted I realized what I had done and posted this in my previous post.

 

Thought I did make the statement that you won't ever take more than 25% Health Damage in an encounter in an above post and that is indeed incorrect. Sorry about that.

Looks like you understand the health system now though, I was just trying to explain it to ya.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Sensuki

[Antianti]

I don't know if this has been proposed (or tried extensively elsewhere), but I would like to see is a long term stamina and a short term stamina a.k.a "breath". 

 

Short term stamina would be the reduced from sprinting, swinging your warhammer size of a watermelon around for solid ten minutes etc. Effect would be immediate as you "run out of breath", making you slower, less dexterous and draining your strength in general. However it would also be recovered fast after the battles, as you have time to catch your breath, or slightly even during the battles in moments of less activity. How fast it would be recovered (or lost during activity) would depend on your long term stamina.

 

Long term stamina would be the general level of exhaustion, you lose this stamina slowly in all the strenuous activities. Fighting waves of monsters or strolling a temple of doom for the whole long afternoon with no time for a nap. It could also be affected if you get badly wounded (bleeding from your neck kind of tires you), poisoned and (and if it would be included) had no proper food or drink for a long time. Naturally long term stamina would be recovered in rest. (Maybe also helped temporarily with drugs/spells/potions in desperate moments, with some side-effects after.)

[rjshae]

Health already acts as a type of long-term stamina, so I'm not sure that adding a third component (Short-term Stamina/Long-term Stamina/Health) would be beneficial. But it would be good if Expert mode included some Health effects on the elements you listed. E.g. Low Health should make you somewhat less resistant to poison or disease.

[Osvir]

Health already acts as a type of long-term stamina, so I'm not sure that adding a third component (Short-term Stamina/Long-term Stamina/Health) would be beneficial. But it would be good if Expert mode included some Health effects on the elements you listed. E.g. Low Health should make you somewhat less resistant to poison or disease.

Yes, but Health acts in a different way. Health is more or less "Life Points". What I am speaking of, and others I believe, is a Dynamic Long-Term "Stamina"/"Resource".

 

Something that determines how long you can run for, how long you can stay up and how tired you are generally. I'd expect a person who stays up for 48 hours (2 days) to be kind of tired. I'd also expect someone who sleeps for 48 hours and stays up for 1 would be generally messed up too.

 

Which is why a Long-Term Stamina is better than a Long-Term Health. Having low Health means you are in great peril, but having low Stamina simply means you are "out of breathe". The latter is still a disadvantage but not as much as the former, and the former is also more crucial in "surviving". Health is like the "pulse", if you have none, then you're gone. But being out of breathe after running for 3 days straight is something you can repair from.

[Lephys]

I don't know if this has been proposed (or tried extensively elsewhere), but I would like to see is a long term stamina and a short term stamina a.k.a "breath". 

 

I actually like that idea. I mean, depending on the rest of the design that we don't know about, it COULD be out-of-place/convoluted. But, just as an idea, I think it's a good one. It could act sort of like armor/equipment does (and how equipment works in Mass Effect 3): affecting your action speed. Certain things might be instant, and/or just not really be slowed down (such as blocking, or maintaining a rigorous stance or something). All they would do would be to decrease your Breath (we'll call it that, instead of "stamina," so as to differentiate it from existing Stamina).

 

It would almost be like mana/stamina (in a system in which stamina acts like the non-magic-person's mana, like in Dragon Age), only, instead of running into "you're out of stamina, so you can't perform this ability that requires 20 Stamina for fuel," you'd have "You're out of stamina, so this ability is going to take 10 seconds to perform instead of 2." Etc. And it could work equally on spells. That COULD even potentially be what's affected by sleeplessness.

 

Anywho... it'd have to be fit into the P:E design. I'm liking it as a potential dynamic that could be used, rather than a "Yes, let's just plug this straight into whatever we've got already, because it would DEFINITELY work! 8D!"

 

Okay, last little tidbit... I could even see some kind of combo capability, allowing you to chain together a few abilities in quick succession to avoid the out-of-breath/fatigue penalty on the subsequent abilities (up to a cap, obviously... like 2 or 3... might even depend on which ones you're using, etc.), at the cost of a greater Breath reduction resulting from the abilities. i.e., using Power Strike, then Blade Flurry, then Action Roll (made up example abilities) could all be used at 100% Breath (full short-term stamina) as a combo action. So, if they each reduce Breath by 10%, then normally, using Power Strike would take you to 90% Breath (thus, 90% action speed), meaning that Blade Flurry would be executed more slowly. Blade Flurry would then cause Action Roll to execute at 80% speed. But, when you perform them in a chained combo, they'd all execute at 100% speed, but your Breath after the combo would be 60%, instead of 80%. So, anything you did after that would be even slower.

 

*shrug*... Okay, I'm done now. I promise. (Osvir's brainstorming is contagious.)

[Abel]

I'm REALLY surprised by the poll results... I voted no regeneration AT ALL. Regeneration is kind of a feature we can find in many casu "let's make sure it is not possible for the player to lose" games. I would be really disappointed if Eternity turned to use ways to "make the player's life easier" that are not Roleplay at all. It's the same for me as the quests markers problem.

 

Want regeneration? Sleep for a while (for just stamina regen), hire more priests (that's one of the reason i want more companions: to have choices gathering your party), brew some potions with alchemy, pay a healer, or just go back home and put your trip on a stop for a while...

 

Reminds me i was afraid reading J.Sawyer explaining that the game is designed to make sure the player has not to stop his trip because of the "not enough priests in the party" thing...

Edited December 17, 2013 by Abel

[Lephys]

^ Dude... you do know how Health and Stamina work, right? The "regeneration" of stamina is just you no longer being about to pass out because you're no longer exerting yourself (because combat is over). It's not the sealing up of wounds and healing of your tissue and organs. If you're down to 10/100 health, you're down to 10/100 health. You can have 15-hits worth of Stamina (for example), and the next hit can still outright kill you.

 

Do you know how tedious it would be if you had to manually heal your Stamina, AND your Health? Very. I'm not understanding this repulsion to the idea of Stamina regen, at all. People are acting like it's making it so that you never have to worry about healing or something. But, Stamina is the thing you have to worry about in a given battle/encounter (even if you have large amounts of Health left), while Health is the thing you have to worry about in the long run (why you'd have to stop your trip to heal up, or turn around and go back to town instead of pushing onward, etc.). If they both served one of those roles, it'd be pointless to have both of them.

 

From what we know, your Stamina only regens QUICKLY outside of combat/encounters. With the exception of items/spells/abilities that give you bursts of regen/"healing" to your stamina, in-combat. Your Health doesn't regen, ever, as far as we know, and you can't quickly top it off with potions and spells like you can Stamina. 

Edited December 19, 2013 by Lephys

[Osvir]

I still think that Stamina should only regenerate to a certain point after combat. If I run 5 miles and exhaust 50% of my daily energy, then I take a breather and regain a lot of it. But I won't go up to "110%" afterwards or even 100%. I'll be somewhere around 95% maybe.

Then if I'd choose to run another 5 miles that might even take more energy from me because I just ran 5 miles earlier, so that takes me down to 40%, then I take a breather and now I might be up at 90% total energy for the day.

But then again, it took a total of 3 hours to run 5 miles twice as I did, and I can only stay up for about 16 hours a day, then I begin to get drowsy as the human being I am and I begin to require sleep. So 3 hours of the day passed and thus took from my "Daily Energy" as well, or "Waking Time" if you will. 5% each hour.

So my Stamina only regenerates up to 75% in the last instance (after the second run).

If I would choose to run a 3rd time, maybe I'd be down to 30% after, another hour passes (that's how long it took to run) which takes away another 5%, so I'm down at 25%. After the breather my Stamina regenerates quickly up to 70%.

4 hours of the day has passed, and I got 12 more hours to go before getting really tired.

Now replace "run 5 miles" with "combat encounter" instead. Furthermore, a character who chooses to engage in situations in a non-lethal way would have more energy and could potentially deal with situations more dextrously because of it.

I think this would be an interesting method and something that'd make the days progressively harder, as you have a resource that gets lower and lower the more hours pass. So it might be wise to use little "strength" over time, partially and not burn everything on 1 fight.