UK Muslims targeted for speaking out about terror

[Monte Carlo]

^ A bit uncalled for, but whatever.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

^ A bit uncalled for, but whatever.

Did I give you the vapors, dear?

[Walsingham]

 

Sorry, but the whole of the middle east is riven with Sectarian murder. You are, sadly, talking out of your hat. Shias, Sunnis and Alawites are dying in their thousands every day, in Syria and Iraq, funded by Saudi / Wahhabi petro-dollars.

 

The idea there is any sort of parity with Judaism is risible.

 

Sorry Monte but you are misinformed. The Middle East is very violent at the moment not because Islam is inherently a violent religion, though some people interpret it like that, but because the region is going through the most profound political and social transformation in its history. This was started by the Arab Spring and it will take time. But its an important transition that took Western countries hundreds of years to get to before they became the stable Democracies they are today  

 

 

Bruce, you and I seem to get on, but you've turned your optimism guage too high.

 

1) Violence in the Mideast is at massive levels. And states not actively at war are freaking out about the risk of it happening.

2) This didn't begin with the Arab Spring, it didn't even begin with 9/11.

3) Parity with Judaism/Israel is nonsense. The death toll of jifascists every month runs in the hundreds of not thousands.

 

The greatest obstacle to peace in the Mideast is that there are simply far too many people, not enough land for them, and wealth creators get leery about investing in countries where the plebs might decide to expropriate everything. That and the fact that anyone with any kind of personal ambition seems to wind up in places like the UK being terribly charming and or serving me delicious snacks.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Bruce, you and I seem to get on, but you've turned your optimism guage too high.

 

1) Violence in the Mideast is at massive levels. And states not actively at war are freaking out about the risk of it happening.

2) This didn't begin with the Arab Spring, it didn't even begin with 9/11.

3) Parity with Judaism/Israel is nonsense. The death toll of jifascists every month runs in the hundreds of not thousands.

 

The greatest obstacle to peace in the Mideast is that there are simply far too many people, not enough land for them, and wealth creators get leery about investing in countries where the plebs might decide to expropriate everything. That and the fact that anyone with any kind of personal ambition seems to wind up in places like the UK being terribly charming and or serving me delicious snacks.

1. Agree

2. Agree

3. Agree, but my original point(most likely made badly due to intoxication) was that other religions also have bad things done in their name but we don't see posters(specifically licketysplit) on here railing against them. Use Orange Volunteers or Baruch Goldstein's little massacre instead of Israel for more parity to Islamic Terrorism.

 

Oh and I like the typo in point 3, I've been ****ing up and using "of" instead of "if" fairly consistently lately.

[Walsingham]

I do think that there are issues with violence in any culture with core values of:

 

1) Tribes

2) Hypo-masculine 'honour'. And yes I do mean hypo not hyper. Getting three men together to kill a woman because she's been smiling at outsiders isn't manly where I ****ing come from. Linking to...

3) ...A lack of respect or opportunities for scholasticism...

4) ...Often arising from a high tolerance for corruption, leading to...

5) ...a breakdown of the social contract with the state

 

I've lived and worked with a number of men from the Mideast, and the two things I always remember is:

 

1. How generous they are

2. How profoundly unhappy they are, with their expected role in life

 

And I'm not talking about just poor ones, either.

 

EDIT: I'm not even talking about national cultures here. I see the issue with certain conservative groupings across national boundaries.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Walsingham

[NOK222]

We can make other threads where we can tear apart the other two Abrahamic religions, I'm all for that. 

[licketysplit]

We can make other threads where we can tear apart the other two Abrahamic religions, I'm all for that. 

 

Me too. Ex Mormons have much to say on the topic.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's not a question of monitoring Muslims for being Muslims, it's a question of monitoring activities of extremist Muslim organizations : http://pjmedia.com/blog/how-american-muslims-radicalize/

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

I haven't noticed Jews bombing the London Underground recently.

Jews have carried out slightly more acts of terrorism than Muslims(who are just ahead of the Communists) in the US actually,

 

Pretty intellectually dishonest of you to compare some minor incidents against Soviet interests 40 years ago to 9/11.

 

Edit: On slightly different topic http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/how-muslim-brotherhood-winning-america#

Edited October 26, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[ManifestedISO]

 

We can make other threads where we can tear apart the other two Abrahamic religions, I'm all for that. 

 

Me too. Ex Mormons have much to say on the topic.

 

 

I hate that that is my identity, but it helps to talk about it constructively, despite the aftertaste. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Pretty intellectually dishonest of you to compare some minor incidents against Soviet interests 40 years ago to 9/11.

Funny you should mention that, JDL planned several bombings right after 9/11. I suppose that doesn't count since the targets were Mosques.

 

Edit: On slightly different topic http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/how-muslim-brotherhood-winning-america#

Pretty intellectually dishonest of you to link to an alarmist site isn't it?

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Pretty intellectually dishonest of you to compare some minor incidents against Soviet interests 40 years ago to 9/11.

Funny you should mention that, JDL planned several bombings right after 9/11. I suppose that doesn't count since the targets were Mosques.

 

And how many did they carry out? Would planning involve a couple of loons fantasizing about it? I've never heard anything about that.

 

 

Edit: On slightly different topic http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/how-muslim-brotherhood-winning-america#

Pretty intellectually dishonest of you to link to an alarmist site isn't it?

 

Which of the facts stated there do you deny?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And how many did they carry out?

Fortunately none. The fellow they intended to hire to plant the bombs turned them in to the FBI.

 

Would planning involve a couple of loons fantasizing about it?

If by "fantasizing about it" you mean "stockpiling weapons and hiring someone to plant bombs", yes.

 

I've never heard anything about that.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/jdl-man-sentenced-to-20-years-in-plot-against-mosque-congressman-1.170431

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/23/local/me-jdl23

 

 

Which of the facts stated there do you deny?

The opinions you mean? All of them.

Edited October 26, 2013 by KaineParker

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

And how many did they carry out?

Fortunately none. The fellow they intended to hire to plant the bombs turned them in to the FBI.

 

Would planning involve a couple of loons fantasizing about it?

If by "fantasizing about it" you mean "stockpiling weapons and hiring someone to plant bombs", yes.

 

I've never heard anything about that.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/jdl-man-sentenced-to-20-years-in-plot-against-mosque-congressman-1.170431

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/23/local/me-jdl23

 

OK, so there was a foiled plot. And how many Islamist plots were foiled since 9/11? And how many succeeded? So far as I know JDL has never actually killed anyone. And you're still intellectually dishonest, because you started out by comparing actual attacks and then switched to plots when challenged.

 

Which of the facts stated there do you deny?

The opinions you mean? All of them.

 

So you deny the first fact stated, that MSA was created by MB? Obviously you're not serious or honest, so it's useless to discuss anything with you.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And how many Islamist plots were foiled since 9/11?

12 in the US.

 

And how many succeeded?

 

Just the Boston marathon bombing. Different group than the ones behind 9/11 as well.

 

 

So far as I know JDL has never actually killed anyone.

 

I'm sure Baruch Goldstein didn't actually kill those people he gunned down while they were worshiping then.

 

 

And you're still intellectually dishonest, because you started out by comparing actual attacks and then switched to plots when challenged.

 

Are you implying a plot to blow something up is somehow much less vile because the lunatics were unable to carry it out? Not very good logic.

 

 

So you deny the first fact stated, that MSA was created by MB?

 

I deny the opinion that there is a vast network of Muslim operatives attempting to take over the US.

 

 

Obviously you're not serious or honest, so it's useless to discuss anything with you.

Have fun in your fear bunker. I'll tell the Illuminati and the Muslim Brotherhood you said hi at the next meeting.

Edited October 26, 2013 by KaineParker

[licketysplit]

Different group for the Boston bombings? It was the same group - Islam. Same violent ideology.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

And how many Islamist plots were foiled since 9/11?

12 in the US.

 

Sounds low, where is that number from?

 

And how many succeeded?

 

Just the Boston marathon bombing. Different group than the ones behind 9/11 as well.

 

I guess you don't consider Nidal Hassan an Islamist.

 

 

So far as I know JDL has never actually killed anyone.

 

I'm sure Baruch Goldstein didn't actually kill those people he gunned down while they were worshiping then.

 

Goldstein was a member of the Kach party. I'm not aware that the Kach party was itself involved in the attack. JDL is a US organization, this happened in Israel, not US. It's worth noting that there were thousands, may be tens of thousands of attacks from the other side.

 

 

And you're still intellectually dishonest, because you started out by comparing actual attacks and then switched to plots when challenged.

 

Are you implying a plot to blow something up is somehow much less vile because the lunatics were unable to carry it out? Not very good logic.

 

Because you said there were more Jewish attacks, but these were minor incidents from a long time ago. The huge attack was Islamist, and the number of Islamist plots is far greater.

 

Have fun in your fear bunker. I'll tell the Illuminati and the Muslim Brotherhood you said hi at the next meeting.

Have fun with you head in the sand, since you got your mind made up, I won't confuse you with facts.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Sounds low, where is that number from?

You're right, older source, my bad. 51.

 

I guess you don't consider Nidal Hassan an Islamist.

I thought we were discussing terror plots, not mass shootings. If you want to talk about those as well, in 2012 there were 66 deaths from mass shootings, twice that of deaths from Islamic terrorism.

 

Goldstein was a member of the Kach party. I'm not aware that the Kach party was itself involved in the attack. JDL is a US organization, this happened in Israel, not US.

The Kach party was founded by the same man who founded the JDL. Goldstein was a member of both.

 

It's worth noting that there were thousands, may be tens of thousands of attacks from the other side.

 

So gunning those people down was OK?

 

Because you said there were more Jewish attacks, but these were minor incidents from a long time ago. The huge attack was Islamist, and the number of Islamist plots is far greater.

I don't see how killing and assaulting people is minor.

 

How many Islamic plots have there been then?

 

Furthermore, does the fact that someone else does something bad more often and/or in a greater degree make it more acceptable for another group to do it?

 

Have fun with you head in the sand, since you got your mind made up, I won't confuse you with facts.

While I'm sure you're an authority on how to correctly use tinfoil to block Illuminati brainwaves, I believe I will survive without those "facts".

Edited October 26, 2013 by KaineParker

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

I guess you don't consider Nidal Hassan an Islamist.

I thought we were discussing terror plots, not mass shootings. If you want to talk about those as well, in 2012 there were 66 deaths from mass shootings, twice that of deaths from Islamic terrorism.

 

Mass shooting doesn't count as terrorism, even when carried out for political/religious reasons? I thought that's what Goldstein did.

 

 

It's worth noting that there were thousands, may be tens of thousands of attacks from the other side.

 

So gunning those people down was OK?

 

How in hell do you even make that leap of logic? You're the one who started counting who did more attacks. And then you give an example of a Jewish terror attack, and ignore the thousands of Palestinian ones. It's been my experience with liberals that they lack all sense of proportion.

While I'm sure you're an authority on how to correctly use tinfoil to block Illuminati brainwaves, I believe I will survive without those "facts".

Facts you're obviously unable to dispute.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Mass shooting doesn't count as terrorism, even when carried out for political/religious reasons? I thought that's what Goldstein did.

 

In that case, insane gun owners are more likely to commit acts of terrorism than Muslims. Do you support a system to monitor gun owners, because a few individuals have committed heinous acts?

 

How in hell do you even make that leap of logic? You're the one who started counting who did more attacks. And then you give an example of a Jewish terror attack, and ignore the thousands of Palestinian ones.

I don't recall ever denying that Palestinians committed acts of terror. I did point out that Jewish extremists have historically been behind more acts of terror(1985-2005) in the US than Muslims, but unless you are a raving lunatic, that doesn't excuse or deny that Muslim extremists have done it as well. I don't see why the fact that Palestinians have committed acts of terror excuses Goldstein or lessens what he did, as you seem top be implying.

 

 

Facts you're obviously unable to dispute.

 

Still haven't seen any facts dear. Try adjusting the tin foil.

Edited October 26, 2013 by KaineParker

[licketysplit]

One question: is any religion more violent on a global scale than Islam? Are Christians, Jews, Mormons, Pagans, Buddhists causing violence in the name of their faith like Muslims are? And perhaps even more importantly from a Muslim perspective, do they have 72 virgins waiting once they splode themselves? Since Islam does its best at sexual repression, those 72 virgins seem mighty tempting,

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

One question: is any religion more violent on a global scale than Islam?

Currently or throughout history?

 

If historically...

 

Are Christians, Jews, Mormons, Pagans, Buddhists causing violence in the name of their faith like Muslims are?

Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Pagans have all historically waged war(and other violence) in the name of their faith. Christianity and Judaism have had time to westernize/secularize, Paganism was practically purged by Christianity, and Hindus squabble with Muslims and caste problems. Buddhism is probably the most relatively peaceful religion, as there is no Deity.

Edited October 26, 2013 by KaineParker

[Meshugger]

What is your point again? is it that you feel equally threathened by any religiously extremist organization, stemmed from the three major abrahamic religions. All of this, despite beheadings and bombings on a global scale by one of them. Or is it due to a sense of egalitarian justice? Meaning that every extremist organization should be equal in the eyes of the law, despite the current situation?

 

And why bring up history when the topic is of a current manner? Do you wish us to still treat every mongolian as threat because, historically speaking they have raped, murdered and destroyed more than any other in the world?

[kgambit]

 

Sounds low, where is that number from?

You're right, older source, my bad. 51.

 

 

Just in the interest of having accurate numbers, as of July 22, 2013 the total since 9/11 is 60 attempts including 4 successful according to Heritage.org

 

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/07/60-terrorist-plots-since-911-continued-lessons-in-domestic-counterterrorism

 

If you want to research terrorist attacks on US soil or get some more details, check out this site: 

 

National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START). (2012). Global Terrorism Database

 http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd

 

They list 207 terrorist attacks from 2001 to 2011 (that is the last year of data available in the public database)

91 of those attacks were perpetrated by the Animal Liberation Front, the Earth Liberation Front or by Anti-Abortion activists (14)

Edited October 26, 2013 by kgambit

[Monte Carlo]

KP has painted himself into a bit of a contrarian corner, equating some old extremist activity as being on par with 9/11 and Global Jihad.