US debt default

[Nepenthe]

 

No, dance is interpretive. Law has to be interpreted, but you do have to apply every word, you can never say "don't take the law literally", you can say it's ambiguous how the law applies to a given situation.

 

I'll cheerfully defer if our legally trained members disagree, but I was always taught that the law HAS to be interpretive in order to deliver justice. Because laws cannot possibly be drafted to account for every circumstance in which they might apply.

 

If WoD does in fact attempt to apply the law without conscience or referring to circumstance then I can only pray nightly that I never have to work with him or for him.

 

 

Eh, there are too many fundamentalists in this thread for me to bother writing a long reply, especially on the topic of "theory vs. practice".

[Walsingham]

 

 

No, dance is interpretive. Law has to be interpreted, but you do have to apply every word, you can never say "don't take the law literally", you can say it's ambiguous how the law applies to a given situation.

 

I'll cheerfully defer if our legally trained members disagree, but I was always taught that the law HAS to be interpretive in order to deliver justice. Because laws cannot possibly be drafted to account for every circumstance in which they might apply.

 

If WoD does in fact attempt to apply the law without conscience or referring to circumstance then I can only pray nightly that I never have to work with him or for him.

 

 

Eh, there are too many fundamentalists in this thread for me to bother writing a long reply, especially on the topic of "theory vs. practice".

 

 

Oh, go on. You will.

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Walsingham

[Amentep]

 

 

...waiting for the day when the legal system becomes fully automated and works without human intervention!

 

That day will be when cars also become fully automated. I'm sensibly direct with most issues, but when the self-driving Neo Prius horde takes over, I will literally Hulk into a loud-mouthed internal combustion alarmist.  TAKE BACK THE WHEEL

 

 

Oh man, I can't wait until driving is automated.  I'm in my car about 2 hours a day, most of it highway.  I could do so much with that time.

 

I have to admit, at this point I kinda feel that the computers can't drive any worse than people do now.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

...waiting for the day when the legal system becomes fully automated and works without human intervention!

 That day will be when cars also become fully automated. I'm sensibly direct with most issues, but when the self-driving Neo Prius horde takes over, I will literally Hulk into a loud-mouthed internal combustion alarmist.  TAKE BACK THE WHEEL

 Oh man, I can't wait until driving is automated.  I'm in my car about 2 hours a day, most of it highway.  I could do so much with that time.

I have to admit, at this point I kinda feel that the computers can't drive any worse than people do now.

Frankly, I would be surprised if a gorilla drove worse than some people.

[Meshugger]

What are you people talking about? I have driven across the whole US, and i have never encountered such polite drivers and functioning traffic as when i drove there + i even avoided the interstate-highways most of the time. 

 

Try driving in France or Italy for western countries, yikes!

Edited October 28, 2013 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

Back to topic (almost):

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

Yeah, Jimmy Carter might've been ineffective and failing what he tried to do, but atleast he stood for what he thought: something good. This guy however...

Edited October 28, 2013 by Meshugger

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

No, dance is interpretive. Law has to be interpreted, but you do have to apply every word, you can never say "don't take the law literally", you can say it's ambiguous how the law applies to a given situation.

 

I'll cheerfully defer if our legally trained members disagree, but I was always taught that the law HAS to be interpretive in order to deliver justice. Because laws cannot possibly be drafted to account for every circumstance in which they might apply.

 

If WoD does in fact attempt to apply the law without conscience or referring to circumstance then I can only pray nightly that I never have to work with him or for him.

 

Don't worry, you never will. Although I have nothing to do with any kind of law (thank heaven) so I'm not sure how that's even relevant. And I said law has to be interpreted and application could be ambiguous, so how is that different from what you're saying?

 

 

 

 

About 30 minutes into the attack, a quick reaction force from the CIA Annex ignored orders to wait and raced to the compound, at times running and shooting their way through the streets just to get there. Inside the compound, they repelled a force of as many as 60 armed terrorists and managed to save five American lives and recover the body of Foreign Service Officer Sean Smith. They were forced to fight their way out before they could find the ambassador.

Any of you still contemplating voting for Hillary, what the hell's wrong with you?

 

 

So. Obvious warnings of an attack were ignored, requests to arm security personnel was denied, and once the attack was happening the CIA crew on the scene were denied to intervene.

 

So do you attribute this to incompetence, or...?

 

Incompetence, magical thinking, complete lack of understanding the world and threats in it (see intimidation of Muslims thread) and cover your ass before anything else mentality.

 

 

Back to topic (almost):

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

Yeah, Jimmy Carter might've been ineffective and failing what he tried to do, but atleast he stood for what he thought: something good. This guy however...

The only good thing I can say about Carter is that he wasn't a shameless liar like you-know-who.

[BruceVC]

Back to topic (almost):

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

Yeah, Jimmy Carter might've been ineffective and failing what he tried to do, but atleast he stood for what he thought: something good. This guy however...

 

So now we believe a newspaper article without any official  comment from the person who is being accused of doing or not doing something?

 

As of this morning the Whitehouse is saying that they were not aware of the depth the NSA bugging program and Obama didn't know about it.

 

Yes it could be lies but lets at least wait for all the facts to come out before we pass judgement ..just a thought

[Nepenthe]

 

Back to topic (almost):

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

Yeah, Jimmy Carter might've been ineffective and failing what he tried to do, but atleast he stood for what he thought: something good. This guy however...

 

So now we believe a newspaper article without any official  comment from the person who is being accused of doing or not doing something?

 

As of this morning the Whitehouse is saying that they were not aware of the depth the NSA bugging program and Obama didn't know about it.

 

Yes it could be lies but lets at least wait for all the facts to come out before we pass judgement ..just a thought

 

 

You haven't clued on to how everything that someone in the US administration does is directly condoned, nay, ordered by the president? Like when somebody has the idea to remove references to God in the US Air Force Academy, my FB feed get flooded by my more conservative American friends proclaiming the latest step in OBAMA'S WAR ON CHRISTIANITY...

[BruceVC]

 

 

Back to topic (almost):

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

Yeah, Jimmy Carter might've been ineffective and failing what he tried to do, but atleast he stood for what he thought: something good. This guy however...

 

So now we believe a newspaper article without any official  comment from the person who is being accused of doing or not doing something?

 

As of this morning the Whitehouse is saying that they were not aware of the depth the NSA bugging program and Obama didn't know about it.

 

Yes it could be lies but lets at least wait for all the facts to come out before we pass judgement ..just a thought

 

 

You haven't clued on to how everything that someone in the US administration does is directly condoned, nay, ordered by the president? Like when somebody has the idea to remove references to God in the US Air Force Academy, my FB feed get flooded by my more conservative American friends proclaiming the latest step in OBAMA'S WAR ON CHRISTIANITY...

 

 

Exactly my point,  I can't believe that anyone with a semblance of intelligence or insight can actually believe that every single decision made by the hundreds of government departments in the USA is ordered personally by Obama and he knows exactly what they are all doing

[Guard Dog]

 I seriously doubt he had any input into the internal operations of the air force academy. However, I know there is no way the spying happened without his knowledge. He is briefed everyday and told of the sources of information. There is just, no way he was unaware. Just like the health care debacle. Millions of people are losing their insurance and not only did he know all the way back in 2010, it was by design. But he keeps having Jay Carney plead ignorance. Same thing with the website. They were briefed well ahead what was going to happen.

[Walsingham]

I think Stratfor's commentary on this has been very interesting.

 

I find Obama's claims of innocence to be disingenuous at best. Tens of thousands of people - including the 'outraged' foreign governments - knew the NSA was monitoring their citizens. Why the hell do you think they were so keen on collaborating with the NSA? You think Spain's militants give the authorities an easy ride because don't have fancy tech?

 

Having said that I agree with Bruce that the President does NOT know every single god damned activity in the Federal machine. In all honesty I'd have expected Guard Dog to use this as an argument against the Federal machine being so extensive. Rather than claiming it is self-aware. For god's sake. The head of a UK town council doesn't know half the stuff they are doing.

[Guard Dog]

Bah, arguing the government needs to be reduced in size is like climbing a greased fire pole these days. About 60% of Americans want the government to be their mother & father and take care of them. But it can't be that. All it can be is their servant or their master. And they have elected to give up their freedom a little at a time to the latter. I'm sick at what I see in the news everyday. And what i read from the Americans on this forum and others like it. I am beginning to think the libertarian argument is lost, and real liberty will soon be lost with it. I know i won't live to see it though. They will have to kill me when the time comes.

 

As for the topic at hand, while the President may not order everything that is done in his name, do not kid yourself that he is unaware of most of it. And don't forget, the bureaucrats who DO implement policy are picked by him to carry out his agenda. It all goes back to the top.   

[Nepenthe]

I've been unaware that all federal employees are fired and replaced with new ones every time a president changes.

 

Agree with you on the servant/master part. I see it every day. The government is the servant of those with the audacity to abuse it, and the master of those who try to function within the society.

[Guard Dog]

Oh they don't replace everyone, but do do replace the management!

[Meshugger]

Topical:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9buEI8SgwU

[Nepenthe]

Oh they don't replace everyone, but do do replace the management!

 

Who listens to management, anyway.

 

... I think I've just had an epiphany about why I switch jobs every 12 months.

[Rostere]

This was linked by Bill Gates on Facebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

[Zoraptor]

If Obama did not know it was almost certainly because he was advised it would be sensible not to know so he could plead ignorance in at least a semi honest fashion. That happens all the time with such things. It does get somewhat amusing to see the same people claim to have strong oversight and ownership over intelligence matters when it's a positive thing (eg Obama and ObL) but suddenly and oh so surprisingly not have the same sort of oversight when it's a negative thing; but politicians gonna do what politicians do, else they wouldn't be politicians.

 

It's certainly not limited to the US, our PM defended allowing our CIA equivalent to spy on us by saying he would oversee everything strongly and follow a strong moral code to protect privacy (which, of course, could not be enshrined in the law itself because... well, just trust him, he's got a nice smile after all!) and that was after it was found he'd allowed many (80+) previous illegal spying activities- which somehow despite his 'strong oversight' he still "didn't know about".

 

Wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Key/ Cameron/ Plastic Hair/ GillRuddAbbot as well as Obama knew it was going on, even if they too deliberately avoided the details.

[BruceVC]

 

It's certainly not limited to the US, our PM defended allowing our CIA equivalent to spy on us by saying he would oversee everything strongly and follow a strong moral code to protect privacy (which, of course, could not be enshrined in the law itself because... well, just trust him, he's got a nice smile after all!) and that was after it was found he'd allowed many (80+) previous illegal spying activities- which somehow despite his 'strong oversight' he still "didn't know about".

 

Wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Key/ Cameron/ Plastic Hair/ GillRuddAbbot as well as Obama knew it was going on, even if they too deliberately avoided the details.

 

But Zora the reality is you Kiwi's do need to be monitored, I have always suspected NZ of being a hotbed of radical and fundamentalist ideas. I mean who knows when your legions of sheep will go a rampage and start killing Westerners !!!!

[Nepenthe]

 

 

It's certainly not limited to the US, our PM defended allowing our CIA equivalent to spy on us by saying he would oversee everything strongly and follow a strong moral code to protect privacy (which, of course, could not be enshrined in the law itself because... well, just trust him, he's got a nice smile after all!) and that was after it was found he'd allowed many (80+) previous illegal spying activities- which somehow despite his 'strong oversight' he still "didn't know about".

 

Wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Key/ Cameron/ Plastic Hair/ GillRuddAbbot as well as Obama knew it was going on, even if they too deliberately avoided the details.

 

But Zora the reality is you Kiwi's do need to be monitored, I have always suspected NZ of being a hotbed of radical and fundamentalist ideas. I mean who knows when your legions of sheep will go a rampage and start killing Westerners !!!!

 

 

I've seen the movie.

[Zoraptor]

Unfortunately Bruce is right- it wasn't a movie, it was a documentary.

 

So was Bad Taste, for that matter.

[alanschu]

This was linked by Bill Gates on Facebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

 

I enjoyed the video.  Thanks