What's wrong with activated abilities?

[alanschu]

The problem with DA and especially DA2, is that combat is designed and balanced entirely for a specific unflexible party composition, which is exacerbated by the fact that DA2 requires the use of inter-class combination attacks to do more-than-adequate damage.

 

I imagine you play on Nightmare?  Because I find people tend to just assume this, while I have been able to make passes through the game with virtually any permutation of the party.  Though I do not play on Nightmare.

Edited August 1, 2013 by alanschu

[tajerio]

 

The problem with DA and especially DA2, is that combat is designed and balanced entirely for a specific unflexible party composition, which is exacerbated by the fact that DA2 requires the use of inter-class combination attacks to do more-than-adequate damage.

 

I imagine you play on Nightmare?  Because I find people tend to just assume this, while I have been able to make passes through the game with virtually any permutation of the party.  Though I do not play on Nightmare.

 

 

Yeah, even on Hard the game's still playable pretty much with any party you want.  You need a rogue before you need a healer, and most of the time you don't need either.  

[Lephys]

The paladin's Reviving Exhortation can bring a single target out of a 0-Stamina state with a big Stamina bump, but if it's done too early in combat, the revived party member will have a Stamina crash before the end of combat.

Slightly off-topic, but this just got me thinking that it would be pretty interesting, from a purely tactical perspective, if the longer you waited to "revive" someone with such an ability, the longer the duration would be before they stamina crashed. Because, bringing them back mere seconds after they are taken out of combat leaves you with the advantage of having almost no downtime for the fallen character, which could cancel out the fact that their sort of soul-power "adrenaline surge" is only going to last about 15 seconds. But, maybe if you put up with their unconsciousness for 15 seconds or so, you can actually revive them for a duration of 30 seconds. There would clearly be rates and caps. I'm not suggesting that if you wait 30 years, you can "temporarily" revive them as an immortal, haha. Just a thought.

 

Perhaps you were getting at something like that, and I misunderstood. Are the ability effect factors actually altered depending on when you revive them? Because, if not, it just seems like the best option never isn't "revive that person as soon as possible." If there are 3 enemies left in combat, it's better to have that extra person back up and fighting for 15 seconds while you take down 2 enemies, then "stamina crash" before you finish the combat (with only 1 foe remaining) than it is to take down 2 enemies with less manpower, then revive them after you've already thinned out he numbers, right?

 

As I said, I'm probably misunderstanding a key detail here, heh.

[J.E. Sawyer]

welp, for 'Power Attack' and 'Rapid Shot', I wouldn't have minded pausing every time I need to activate them. Honestly. As it now seems, I may be pausing a lot more often in the end just to check if everyone's 3 or 4 modal abilities are set up ideally.

 

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

[Kjaamor]

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

 

<3

[Sacred_Path]

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

pausing is the essence of tactics? (IOW you have a real time game, not a turn based one)

Edited August 2, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[Sarex]

 

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

pausing is the essence of tactics? (IOW you have a real time game, not a turn based one)

 

Wait, what? Then what is the use of pause, if you are going down that route? Further, more pausing is the essence of IE games. I'm very confused with your statement there.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Sarex

[Sacred_Path]

Wait, what? Then what is the use of pause, if you are going down that route? Further, more pausing is the essence of IE games. I'm very confused with your statement there.

I'm very confused that you think the "essence" of IE games was the pause function.

 

Tactics IMO aren't necessarily deeper if you can have 4 modes active in contrast to having only one active at any one time. On the contrary, it would probably enforce player choice better when it comes to i.e. defensive vs. offensive stance, or melee vs. ranged (Power Attack vs. Rapid Shot) etc. Essentially though, it may just come down to the number of possible modes. If you have 4 channels max and a max of 2 modes per channel, it may not be as bad. But it would still take a lot of micro managing to just keep an overview of what everyone is doing.

[Malekith]

 

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

pausing is the essence of tactics? (IOW you have a real time game, not a turn based one)

 

It's RTwP.  In IE i paused evry five seconds, and that's how i liked it.  In Da;O i paused once in a blue moon because the game was piss easy, and you could just spam abilities.

[forgottenlor]

Tough battles in IE games were almost never winnable without pausing. The real time combat (if you can call it that) simply made getting through relatively simple encounters fast. I'd be surprised if P:E works differently. What is proposed with Modal Abilities offers more options in short term advantages in combat. That seems to me to make battles in general more interesting.

[Sacred_Path]

Tough battles in IE games were almost never winnable without pausing.

wait, when did anyone say there should be no pause function

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

pausing is the essence of tactics? (IOW you have a real time game, not a turn based one)

No. Pausing does enable you to manage your party better and utilize tactics more efficiently in a RT game though.

[Sacred_Path]

No. Pausing does enable you to manage your party better and utilize tactics more efficiently in a RT game though.

Pausing just to check what everyone is doing doesn't fall into either category IMO

[JFSOCC]

Not only is combat not my strong suit, but I find that activated abilities are often only useful in a specific set of circumstances. This is why personally if I can choose I prefer to have passive bonuses. It takes no brain-power, is always active, and does not depend on my opponents.

 

That's not to say I'm against activated abilities, quite the contrary, but if it requires any type of twitchy reaction skills on my part, I'm not likely to use it. Activated abilities which will have a guaranteed effect are more likely to be used by me. For instance if something causes bleeding, and some foes can't bleed, then it better be frikking awesome for me to consider it. If something causes knockdown and it works on all foes, I know which one I'll be choosing.

 

It's a bit of my Timmy (Timmy Johnny and Spike) mindset:

I build my decks based on what I can influence. If I don't know my opponents, it's best not to make a build depending on their behaviour.

[Morgulon the Wise]

I really hope the Reviving Exhortation is worth its later use... I mean its ( in other RPGS) in most of all situations a better choice to revive characters earlier than later --> fighting value is longer at the important situations (mid-combat) of use. What use does it have to restore a character at the end of combat if everything is nearly over?

 

- it would be good if the characters were given additional damage/ stamina points if they were longer in 0 stamina-state.

 

- maybe they can ignore engagement zones for a while if they were longer out. The enemies might forget a threat over the time...

 

- faking death with rouges should use the same effect without a real stamina crash.

 

--> which leads to some tactical possibilities you wouldn't have if you revived a character who just fell.

( But please let them stay down for a reasonable minimum of time. I dont want to fight with or against tumblers.)

[Gfted1]

Stamina is in a constant state of regeneration anyway so we can probably just stand that party member in the corner for a few rounds after the "crash" and all will be well, bad guys permitting. And Morgulon the Wise makes a good point, a up-and-fighting NPC is more important.

[Larkaloke]

My problem with activated abilities (and cooldowns for them) is born of some desire for realism, I suppose, or some inability to suspend my belief sufficiently in some particular cases. Sometimes I don't have a problem with them -- it all depends on the way in which they are used.

 

Defending with a shield, or indeed attacking with it in addition to attacking with the weapon, are things that I would expect my character to be doing in the course of a fight. Those are examples of activated abilities that bother me, particularly if it's the sort where one can only do it so many times a day.

 

I like ones that are useful only in certain situations, and that one wouldn't be expected to do frequently. Attacks that are a bit of a gamble, such as various whirlwind attacks, in particular -- more examples aren't coming to mind, but I know there have been some other activated abilities that I don't mind. I like to assume that the character is reasonably competent at fighting, and so since no game has a complete level of control over the fighting, I prefer to assume that they're doing reasonable things with their weapons. When a few of those reasonable things can only be done a certain number of times a day, or only so often, it feels odd to me.

 

Switching between styles or modes depending on the situation is much more to my liking.

 

 

Perhaps some people don't like activated abilities because they are not an accurate representation of reality? For example, in real life one could presumably use a "called shot" whenever one wanted. By giving it a fixed number of uses, it makes the player aware of the designer's manipulation. There's a similar issue with cool downs for repeatable physical actions. I understand why the game designers use these tools, but they do possess a certain element of artificiality.

I can see both sides of this. But consider that a guy trying for a shield bash is going to to do exactly that: try for one. I understand what you mean about the cool down being an artificial limitation on how often a guy can do a shield bash, but consider the alternative: you can shield bash at any time, but the odds for success would go way down (as they would realistically) since using a shield bash -- to knock someone over, move their shield aside, push them back, etc -- would only work if it were timed perfectly. And, yes, doing it too much could be exhausting.

 

So cool downs act as approximations of these two limitations: stamina and timing. Instead, the chance for success is driven way up, but the ability's usefulness is now regulated by scarcity (instead of just stamina, or just timing, or both).

 

True, but then, you're only going to be trying for a hit with the sword (or mace, or what have you) as well. That's what feels strange about it to me. If I'm fighting using a sword and shield, I'll be using the shield almost as much as the sword -- but in no small number of games, it would assume that I'm mostly using the sword and just holding the shield in some stationary place, except when I suddenly decide to try for a shield bash (and then I can't do it again for a long while, but could try something more time consuming and exhausting if I haven't done that recently). Some of those more risky things that take more time and commitment to the attack, such as trying to knock someone over or push them back, I could see as activated abilities that wouldn't bother me.

[JFSOCC]

- faking death with rouges should use the same effect without a real stamina crash.

I like this idea, but then there should be some enemies which choose to keep hacking at your team even after some have dropped. (to make sure)

so that feigning is a risky proposition which doesn't always pay off.

[SymbolicFrank]

Spot traps

 

 

Description:

This ability will find all traps in sight range of the character as long as their Search skill is higher than the Difficulty Class of the trap.

 

Type: activated ability

Cooldown: 30 seconds

Usability: 3 times each day

Available to: all classes

Edited August 10, 2013 by SymbolicFrank

[mexrage]

I don´t mind if fighter use stances/mode, as long as you actually have to think what mode and stances to use on diferent situations, something i disliked about NWN games with non-casters it´s the....i activate power attack mode....and never bother doing anything else...

 

I just hope the rogue do have diferent abilities to use in combat, D&D based games (and the PnP) always make rogue like characters boring as hell in combat.

[Lephys]

 

Changing what units are doing based on the circumstances of combat is the essence of tactics.

pausing is the essence of tactics? (IOW you have a real time game, not a turn based one)

 

Pausing is the top hat of tactics?

 

See. I can blatantly misrepresent people's quotes by arbitrarily changing out words, too. ^_^

[J.E. Sawyer]

Stamina is in a constant state of regeneration anyway

 

Only fighters continuously regenerate Stamina during combat.  After combat, Stamina regenerates for everyone very rapidly.

[Gfted1]

Interesting. Is that a recent change or has it always been that way (only fighters recover Stamina during combat)? Also, are you using the term fighter literally? The same does not occur with fighterly classes like Paladin/Cleric/Barb?

[PrimeJunta]

Fighter-specific only, not paladins, clerics, or others: [ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64027-fighters-in-project-eternity-will-have-stamina-regeneration-in-combat/ ]

 

Specifics of stamina regeneration were left open in Update #24, which introduced the mechanic, and JES also said "I don't know, man" when asked how quickly it regenerates in an interview with Iron Tower Studios in December. I can't remember exactly when they formally announced that stamina does not regenerate in combat except for fighters, but it was a while back. So not news, exactly.

[Gfted1]

Thanks for the link and info.