The general firearms thread!

[Raithe]

Heh, I always remember hearing a discussion between a Navy guy and a Marine. It was more joking, but the Navy guy was all "I don't consider it a weapon if I can't use it to hit an enemy ship that's on the edge of the horizon and it's not lobbing shells x inches", while the Marine was all "if I can't carry it with me, it's not a weapon it's just an artillery piece that floats."

[Walsingham]

I believe that the Royal Marines would observe that it's not a weapon if you can't ram into some poor bastard's groin.

[ravenshrike]

What I'm trying to say is a single and double action revolver might be an extremely reliable weapon system, but when it jams or parts break the gun is inoperable and can only be fixed by a qualified experienced person with the required tools in a workshop. A service pistol having the same problem can be fixed in minutes by anyone. 

If I wanted a handgun I'd want a Glock, they're ugly but they seem to never jam. A friend of mine has 20.000 rounds through it with only one FTF, caused by an out-of-spec round. But then again I'm not a pistol/revolver guy anyway, I'm a rifleman,pistols and revolvers are backup weapons.

A 1911 machined to original tolerances is just as if not more reliable than a glock. In fact, except for the extractor it will on average last quite a bit longer and the extractor is just a small piece of spring steel. Hell, that's true for most modern(as in post 1900) pistol designs.The problem is a bunch of manufacturers substitute MIM parts and try to tighten tolerances to get 100 yard accuracy instead of 50 yard. This causes internals to break and also causes the gun to bind and jam.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well generally speaking, gun tech is so old that most guns are extremely reliable. If a self defense weapon that doesn't get much use breaks down in a critical situation , meaning the three seconds of your life that you actually need it for, then that's just the universe's way of saying that you patron deity rolled a critical miss and its time to scoop your remains off the table.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Woldan]

Went to the shooting range today to test my rifle handloads, sadly one caliber I reloaded was beyond max pressure, sticky bolt and primer cratering. I'm gonna try 3 grains less next time. 

One particular load was doing pretty well, funnily for said load I used my cheapest most inconsistent bulk-pack bullets just to get rid of 'em. 

 

5 shots, 100 meters, .308. The flyer on the left was my fault, breathing error while pulling the trigger.   

.308 Remington brass trimmed to spec, CCI standard primer, Prvi 150 flatbase, 47 grains of Lovex S065, OAL 71,20mm, tightly crimped in crimp groove. 

 

Edited July 19, 2013 by Woldan

[Walsingham]

Thought you loons might like this:

 

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-gun-markets-of-pakistan

 

WARNING: The anchorman is a tw**.

[Woldan]

Just got the results from my hand loads from the proof house, looking at the data the load looks very promising, only 6 meters / 16 feet per second extreme spread, thats a 0,7% spread of velocity between the rounds. Cant get any better than that.
Pressure is also mild, I can add another two grains to increase the velocity to approx 810 m/s / 2650 fps easily. And thats with a 240 grain .308 bullet, by far the heaviest most streamlined bullet available in this caliber, this might be a good 1500 meter load right here. 

Edited July 25, 2013 by Woldan

[Walsingham]

You got a lab to rate your hand loads?

[Gorgon]

Probably the gun club he belongs to. 

[Woldan]

You got a lab to rate your hand loads?

 

Indeed! 

I send my loads to the national proof house in Vienna (the lab that tests commercial ammunition and test fires guns with overcharged ammunition to ensure they're sound and safe) and they test my loads for a small fee of 25 bucks. They measure the pressure in copper units, velocity, bullet energy, calculate extreme spread of that data etc.

 

I only send them my hottest loads or loads that stray far from the powder manufacturers max load suggestions to be sure I'm not shooting overpressure ammunition in my guns that have the potential to blow my face off. I DO have a very reliable computer program that calculates pressure and velocity of my loads but only the proof house data gives me certainty. 

[Walsingham]

Never heard of anything like that in the UK. Sounds bloody good value for 25 quid. They'd soon get sick of me though. I'd start sending them things like chilli peppers, and pictures of Iga Wyrwal to test.

[Woldan]

Every country that is a member of the EU absolutely has to have a proof house, that calculates and measure data in a standardized format (I think its called SAAMI). For example every single gun that gets manufactured in the UK (Accuracy International for example, makes world-class sniper rifles for the Brit & Swedish army and even US special forces) goes first to the UK proof house before its gets shipped overseas or sent to the Brit army. A gun NOT bearing the crest of the proof house on its barrel and receiver must not be sold or shipped. 

 

Guns that bear the crest of proof houses from overseas, like guns shipped from the US have to be test-fired again by an EU certificated proof house or the gun must not be sold. 

 

There was a case of unsafe firearms not too long ago, I think it was Turkish break action shotguns they test fired with a 30% overcharged round. Even though they fired standard spec rounds just fine the slightly overcharged round blew them to pieces. They built those guns with no safety margin. Needless to say that this shotgun is not available here in Austria. 

 

Proof houses have existed long before they got a mandatory institution, as far as I remember our proof house is 350 years old,  they tested muzzle loaders there.

 

Sounds bloody good value for 25 quid.

 

I agree, their service is invaluable for a handloader like me. It would be nigh impossible for me to have all that super expensive equipment to measure the loads myself.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Woldan

[Walsingham]

Interesting one, stumbled across. Replica of the HK 416 pistol, made by Walther, and chambered for .22 rimfire.

 

http://www.waltherarms.com/products/tactical-rimfire-replicas/416-pistol/

 

[Woldan]

Yeah, those .22lr replicas are way cool. GSG (German Sports Guns) also makes a MP44 .22lr replica. You know, the first true assault rifle the Germans designed way back in 1944. 

 

 

 

Although I'm still waiting for an H&K MP7 in .22lr or .17HMR.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Woldan

[Nepenthe]

mm, Sturmgewehr...

[Walsingham]

Yeah, those .22lr replicas are way cool. GSG (German Sports Guns) also makes a MP44 .22lr replica. You know, the first true assault rifle the Germans designed way back in 1944. 

 

 

 

Although I'm still waiting for an H&K MP7 in .22lr or .17HMR.

 

Given that the problem with the '44 was that it fired a round that was far far too large, wouldn't fitting a .22 rob it of any real point?

 

Besides, I find all Nazi kit a bit creepy. With the exception of the k98 (which I associate with WW1) and the StuG variants (which I think look like pigs).

[Woldan]

Given that the problem with the '44 was that it fired a round that was far far too large

Huh? 

The STG44 fired the 7.92mm kurz, that was a downsized version of the general issued and very powerful 8mm Mauser, which means less powder, lighter bullet and smaller case. The K98 shot the 7.92x57 (196 grain at about 800 m/s) and the STG44 the 7.92x33. (125 grain @ 685 m/s). The 7.92x33 was an intermediate round, the STG44 was very heavy and had a low rate of fire (compared to most modern machine guns) which made it extremely controllable. Every German soldier wanted one. 

 

Edited September 9, 2013 by Woldan

[Azdeus]

Given that the problem with the '44 was that it fired a round that was far far too large, wouldn't fitting a .22 rob it of any real point?

 

Besides, I find all Nazi kit a bit creepy. With the exception of the k98 (which I associate with WW1) and the StuG variants (which I think look like pigs).

 

 

Surely, you must be thinking of the FG42? That rifle did have big recoil issues from what I've learned.

 

I must say that I have absolutely no problem with the Nazi gear and such, and I absolutely love how badass their uniforms looks and their engineering skills. Their ideology is just plain retarded, but I really have a soft spot for Nazi planes, guns, uniforms and tanks.

[Walsingham]

I swear I was told the 7.92 was too powerful. Although checking the muzzle velocities and energy imparted I don't actually get it.

 

*shrug*

 

Well, that's me learned.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm digging myself a hole here, but what the hell. Can't get schooled without looking stupid.

 

In fairness to my unidentifiable advisor, after reading this comparison it occurs to me that the StG would have seemed a lot punchier than the 9mm parabellum of the MP40. It's also twice the muzzle velocity of the Thompson SMG.

 

I can imagine that in the hands of an Allied soldier expecting something like the above, the StG would feel wrong.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Walsingham

[Woldan]

Well, the M1 .30 carbine was actually issued to give the auxiliary soldiers (mortar crews, paratroopers etc.) compact weapons which were more useful and had more range and power than the 1911 pistol. Even though it was more of an early PDW (personal defence weapon) its ultra compact size made the M1 carbine so popular that even front line soldiers used it.

MP40 and the Thompson were submachine guns (along with the Russian PPSH and the US greese gun), compact long guns chambered in pistol cartridges for close quarter combat not exceeding 100yds.
Subgun rounds: 45ACP, 40S&W, 9x19MM, 7.62x25 TT

Now the STG44 was a new kind of weapon, a Sturmgewehr, an assault rifle. It did not use pistol cartridges nor a weak cartridge like the M1 carbine, it fired a special designed downsized rifle round designed for medium ranges and full auto firing. More power and accuracy than a submachine gun, less power and range than a full rifle round.
Assault rifle rounds: .223 NATO, 5.54x39, 7.62x39, 7.92x33

Only approx. a decade ago a new type of weapon was born - the PDW, the personal defence weapon. It will eventually replace the submachine gun as it has more range, more effectiveness and far more armor penetration capabilities with less recoil. They fire downsized intermediate rounds, or assault rifle rounds which are still more powerful than pistol cartridges.
I remember the statement that the 4.6x30 can penetrate a kevlar helmet at up to 400yds.
PDW Rounds: 4.6x30, 5.7x28

I hope that helps to clear up the confusion!
 
 

I can imagine that in the hands of an Allied soldier expecting something like the above, the StG would feel wrong.

I guess pretty much the whole gun felt wrong to them, it was the first of a new species.
 

 

Given that the problem with the '44 was that it fired a round that was far far too large, wouldn't fitting a .22 rob it of any real point?
 
Besides, I find all Nazi kit a bit creepy. With the exception of the k98 (which I associate with WW1) and the StuG variants (which I think look like pigs).

 
Surely, you must be thinking of the FG42? That rifle did have big recoil issues from what I've learned.

 

 
Oh man, the FG42, my old love. One of the finest rifles ever made (as long you stay away from the full auto happy switch.) Decades ahead of its time. Bullpup design, 20 round  mag, pistol grip, foldable iron sights, spring buffered stock, flash hider integrated bipod with a 4x scope. I would sell everything I have for an original in mint condition.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2013 by Woldan

[Walsingham]

Cheeky ****er.

 

Don't swan around assuming I don't know anything about guns! I know about t evolution of the sodding assault rifle. Why else in t name of all that's holy would I even know what the hell a StG was chambered with?

[Monte Carlo]

It's not a true bullpup configuration if the magazine housing is adjacent the trigger group. It has to be behind the trigger group. Just being pedantic.

 

There can be Only One battle rifle...

 

[Monte Carlo]

I found Glock 17 more comfortable to shoot than Beretta 92, Beretta is a bit heavy.

 

The Seventeen is the BMW Five Series of hand-guns IMO. I love them.

[Woldan]

It's not a true bullpup configuration if the magazine housing is adjacent the trigger group. It has to be behind the trigger group. Just being pedantic.

Being even more pedantic I have to mention part of the magazine IS clearly behind the trigger group, therefore its a bullpup.

 

And the FN-FAL beats everything, its THE battle rifle. Especially a build with a paratrooper folder, battle optics and barrel shortened to 18'' or 20''. Just like this:

 

 

If was dropped on a foreign planet and I could choose any rifle I want to defend myself from angry xenomorphs, but just one, I'd choose a scoped FAL. 

 

Edited September 10, 2013 by Woldan

[Azdeus]

It's not a true bullpup configuration if the magazine housing is adjacent the trigger group. It has to be behind the trigger group. Just being pedantic.

 

There can be Only One battle rifle...

 

 

Smexy... Love old battle rifles!

 

Parts of the FG's action are behind the triggergroup though, since the stock houses the recoil springs, extractor and whatnot. I'd reckon that it qualifies

 

 

Oh man, the FG42, my old love. One of the finest rifles ever made (as long you stay away from the full auto happy switch.) Decades ahead of its time. Bullpup design, 20 round  mag, pistol grip, foldable iron sights, spring buffered stock, flash hider integrated bipod with a 4x scope. I would sell everything I have for an original in mint condition.

 

It's really impressive that they have the single shot configured to fire from a closed bolt and the full auto from an open bolt. It's impressive that the engineers managed to build the rifle despite the weird demands of the Luftwaffe!

 

 

Being even more pedantic I have to mention part of the magazine IS clearly behind the trigger group, therefore its a bullpup.

And the FN-FAL beats everything, its THE battle rifle. Especially a build with a paratrooper folder, battle optics and barrel shortened to 18'' or 20''. Just like this:

 

If was dropped on a foreign planet and I could choose any rifle I want to defend myself from angry xenomorphs, but just one, I'd choose a scoped FAL. 

 

 

 

"Help I've FALlen and I can't get up!"

 

One of my favourite modern rifles, the AN-94;

 

Edited September 10, 2013 by Azdeus