Monte Carlo Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 _IF_ there is a serious point to the double barrel it could be CQB/FIBUA/FISH. After all this is about the only job left for infantry apart from country walks while getting shot at. there's been a fair amount of muttering that 5.56mm kills, but does not incapacitate quickly enough. Swivel-eyed, furry chaps leap out from behind sofas at you and you want them to die immediately. Not even 2 or 3 seconds from now. I _suppose_ there might be beneficial (i.e. nasty) effects from having two 5.56 bullets go through you in close proximity. Although I'd have to wonder what would happen if you made the rifling spin them in opposing directions. I have a friend who is now a bit of a prepper, but who in a former life was a sniper. We often have spotterish discussions about 5.56 versus 7.62. His view is simple - 5.56 was adopted because of weapons procurement politics around NATO and the M-16 in the 1970s. OK, you carry more, lighter ammo and it supports automatic weapons better vis a vis recoil... but they're too damned fast and not designed for longer ranges. It zips through bodies and bounces of level 2/3 body armour. Back in the day of 3 Shock Army swarming over the Fulda Gap this was viewed as no biggie: a wounded soldier is more of a burden than a dead one to the enemy logistics train... but nowadays your average Muj doesn't have a logisitics train and isn't that bothered about his wounded either. Recent experience in hot sandy places suggests you need a dedicated marksman rifle capability at squad level (which is why the venerable M14 is back in fashion), mainly because it delivers a big 'ol 7.62 man-killing round at the best part of a mile. Everyone was impressed with Muj marksmen armed with ageing Dragunov / SVR class rifles. Lastly, my friend The Sniper believes the most viable calibre for modern military firearms, which is often mooted, sits at the 7mm mark. This is the best trade-off of killing power, weight and recoil in his (rather credible) opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I concede the topic. ~~ As an aside i was watching 'Assembly' yesterday. Chinese film, 2007. The producers clearly wanted something like Saving Private Ryan meets 9th Company. But the reason I mention it here is that there's a cornucopia of weapons shown. Thought it would amuse readers of this thread. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 ^ Yeah sry Wals was in a 2 v 2 and getting my arse handed to me. Couldn't really reply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 ^ Yeah sry Wals was in a 2 v 2 and getting my arse handed to me. Couldn't really reply. Ah no problem. CoH really isn't conducive to chatter. Even over voice. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I have a friend who is now a bit of a prepper, but who in a former life was a sniper. We often have spotterish discussions about 5.56 versus 7.62. His view is simple - 5.56 was adopted because of weapons procurement politics around NATO and the M-16 in the 1970s. OK, you carry more, lighter ammo and it supports automatic weapons better vis a vis recoil... but they're too damned fast and not designed for longer ranges. It zips through bodies and bounces of level 2/3 body armour. Back in the day of 3 Shock Army swarming over the Fulda Gap this was viewed as no biggie: a wounded soldier is more of a burden than a dead one to the enemy logistics train... but nowadays your average Muj doesn't have a logisitics train and isn't that bothered about his wounded either. Recent experience in hot sandy places suggests you need a dedicated marksman rifle capability at squad level (which is why the venerable M14 is back in fashion), mainly because it delivers a big 'ol 7.62 man-killing round at the best part of a mile. Everyone was impressed with Muj marksmen armed with ageing Dragunov / SVR class rifles. Lastly, my friend The Sniper believes the most viable calibre for modern military firearms, which is often mooted, sits at the 7mm mark. This is the best trade-off of killing power, weight and recoil in his (rather credible) opinion. Sounds alot like the reasoning behind the 6.8mm Remington development. 1 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 ^ Yeah, I don't think my friend's view is particularly controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Yeah, it does make sense after all. Funnilly I first heard of the 6.8mm round in Jagged Alliance 2 1.13. Who says you can't learn stuff from videogamez?! 1 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Lastly, my friend The Sniper believes the most viable calibre for modern military firearms, which is often mooted, sits at the 7mm mark. This is the best trade-off of killing power, weight and recoil in his (rather credible) opinion. IMO the 6.5 Grendel throwing 120's at 800 m/s is perfect. Thanks to the high sectional density and BC of the 6.5's they would have as much (And probably even more) range as the 7.62x51, more power than the .223, and FAR more barrier penetration while being only slightly heavier than the 5.56's. Though I'd still go with a 7.62x51, and if the 8x57mm was more popular I'd take it over the .762. IMO the 8x57 is the perfect round for me. I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I like watching that show, it's fun, though I mostly watch it for the really rare guns they sometimes pop up and these Axis vs Allies "battles" they have. And the presenter is a dead ringer for me, except I have a deeper voice. 2 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Look what followed me home! Thats Scottish ''Black Watch'' pistol and yes, the entire stock is made of brass. Cute little pistol, the lock is great and the frizzen throws sparks like fireworks. The smoothbore barrel is heavy and beautifully made. It looks kinda cute but the caliber is .58, it has serious stopping power for a pistol that size and its kind of heavy too. Not exactly a pistol to shoot matches with as it has neither sights nor rifling and the grip is very small for my huge paws but thats not what it was intended for anyway. And it even has a belt clip for concealed carry! Gonna have to try it someday, but first I have to get proper flint stones and a properly sized patches for the bullets. Edited January 31, 2014 by Woldan 3 I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 1 "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 ^ Thats a percussion lock though. I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 That's a nice pistol you got yourself Woldan, I'm quite envious of that one. First time in my life that I look at a cartridge and feel a pang of fear. I can very well imagine what that would do to soft tissue. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Heard of that one before, what is it called? The R.I.P-bullet? Upon impact each of those fragmented sections will break off and cause individual wound channels. Its pretty much a shotgun concept turned into pistol round. But lets not forget that each fragment is TINY and might have very little penetration capability on its own, I'd rather have a normal bullet to be honest. Edited February 2, 2014 by Woldan I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mor Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skFhKtCo5aE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Heard of that one before, what is it called? The R.I.P-bullet? Upon impact each of those fragmented sections will break off and cause individual wound channels. Its pretty much a shotgun concept turned into pistol round. But lets not forget that each fragment is TINY and might have very little penetration capability on its own, I'd rather have a normal bullet to be honest. Yes, it's the G2 R.I.P, as Mor posted, forgot to mention that myself. I'd take a normal bullet for warfare and such, but for what that round is designed for, home defence, where armour is unlikely - I'd consider it. Well, if it was'nt utterly illegal to do so with firearms here in Sweden. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I think on balance that if I wanted anyone that dead I'd use something bigger than a gun. EDIT: Possibly a gnu. Edited February 2, 2014 by Walsingham "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Would'nt C++ be a better choice in that? That's a monster if I'd ever seen one, perfectly capable of killing people dead! Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 LISP would be far more lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamarian Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 A funny story about the MG-3 from someone I spoke to who served as a Leopard 2 commander and Kompanie executive officer in the last days of the Cold War to the mid-90s: As many of them were simply Second World War vintage MG-42s re-chambered for NATO 7.62mm, it wasn't totally unheard of that one would find a Nazi eagle emblem still engraved on the internal parts whilst cleaning one. A few years ago there was this ''huge scandal'' about the German parade corps still using K98's with swastikas and eagles on them. Good thing they removed them, what seemed like mere little imprints from a time long gone turned out to be malevolent magical runes that could actually resurrect zombie-Hitler when used in a special ritual. Anyway, here is a pic of a L2A1 because its so cool I'd trade whats left of my soul to own one. I used one of these in the airforce. The straight mags had no problems feeding the rifle, as they were made for the L2's not bren guns. I loved these rifles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) I used one of these in the airforce. The straight mags had no problems feeding the rifle, as they were made for the L2's not bren guns. I loved these rifles! Man, I envy you, all I got was this blasted Steyr STG 77 (AUG) in 556. I wish I had gotten a rifle with less plastic and more steel on it, chambered in a battlefield-worthy cartridge. When handling and shooting the AUG it felt like a supersoaker. Speaking of heavy steel and big cartridges, this, ladies and gentlemen is why you must not leave any air space between the butt plate of your rifle and your shoulder pocket. Especially if the rifle happens to be a 98' in 8x57 with a steel butt plate and you shoot it from the bench. (Its kind of hard to see but the bruise is actually almost palm-sized, the red part is just the center. ) Edited February 9, 2014 by Woldan I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Slight aside, I did enjoy that, during my brief stay in Seattle, the two restaurant/pubs that had passcodes for their bathroom used 223 and 308 haha. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If I were you I'd be more worried about the rifle having knocked your nipple off. Better get back to the range and find it before it gets swept up with the old casings. 1 "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woldan Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Wals, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but let me educate you on the human body: men-teats are not suited to breast feed the young, so why should I bother about their absence on badly-cropped photos? Anyway, man, I SO wish a had (and was allowed to own) a PTRD: Edited February 10, 2014 by Woldan 1 I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agiel Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Oh how far man-portable anti-tank weapons have come, from the humble Boys Anti-tank rifle to the Panzerfaust, to the AT-3 Sagger to the MILAN, then finally the RBS-56 BILL and the TOW 2B. Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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