That Thing Obsidian Always Does

[nikolokolus]

If they want to shoot for realism in greetings, 90% of the people you encounter should either grunt, barely nod their head, give a closed mouth non-smile, look down at the ground or pretend to look up at the sun to see what time of day it is.  The other 10% should either be grifters trying to shake you down for loose change or the local constabulary telling you that they don't much like vagrants in their sleepy little town.

[anubite]

Demanding an in-depth dialogue tree and life story for every NPC in the game is comically, nay, idiotically unfeasible. If Obsidian had a team of 2000 professional writers they wouldn't be able to do it on account of the fact that maybe 1% of them would actually get paid, based on the game budget.

Did you read my post? I didn't even suggest that. Sheesh.

 

All I want is a little more care and attention paid to generic NPCs and what they say.

[Hassat Hunter]

It's time for...

 

Your typical Obsidian dialogue...

Which should show that yes, they do got it handled.

 

However, like here, it can be that half or more of it doesn't even appear ingame due to bugs.

 

So personally, I am not that worried for P:E in this instance...

[PieSnatcher]

Exile: "Hi do you know the way to-"

Female Telosian: "The war has really inflated prices here in the Outer Rim. Medical supplies are in short supply, and high demand."

 

Exile: "Ey, where can you buy-"

Male Telosian: "Czerka's mercenaries are getting out of hand, and they're too much for the TSF to handle. We need Republic troops to restore order."

 

 

Heh, I see- though my favorite ones were when Carlton Lassiter spoke (I believe he voiced the Onderon guards?). 'Cause then it felt like I already knew 'em. Though I couldn't take them seriously at that point. Oh Lassy.

 

Anyway, I'm ok if they use generic NPCs as vehicles for exposition- it's a quick way to get a feel for whatever is supposed to be happening (and i've never been really jarred by an npc conversation in an Obsidian game, those aren't conversations I'm invested in). And I don't know what else to really expect to hear from every average joe in the game. But I think the point that's being made to have a focus on more organic conversations with everyone is a cool one to keep in mind. I would rather have standard Obsidian dialogues though than, say, a Morrowind type system where you essentially have one massive/boring dialogue pool for pretty much everyone in town.

 

PS: @H Hunter I literally just finished TSLRCM yesterday, good job!

[Lephys]

On this topic, I'd like to opt for (though it be a minor issue, really) more organic "goodbye" lines. The typical ones always end up being borderline dickish.

 

"Why, would you like any more free healing and equipment? I've got plenty left over!"

 

(Main character): "PEACE OUT, BEECHES!"

 

Hehe. Okay, they aren't THAT bad, but it seems like, even when all the other dialogue options are specifically tailored to exactly what was said last, the same "I'm out of here" line persists throughout, as if it were only designed with player interface functionality in mind. It quite often seems to not fit the actual dialogue in anyway, and comes across as rather rude, because it's essentially an "I no longer wish to speak with you, for even a second more" option. Or, to the player, "Dialogue, CEASE!"

[Micamo]

I played a flash game called Westerado. You can, at any point in a dialogue tree, walk way, pull out your gun, **** it, and fire. You'll often get unique dialogue depending on when you do it, though admittedly they don't do as much with the mechanic as I think they could have (for example, pulling out your gun to try to threaten someone will almost always result in them immediately stopping the conversation and either running away or fighting back, which is realistic I guess but really lame and boring; a perfect example of where "verisimilitude" hurts rather than enhances the game). Still though, interrupting a questgiver by shooting them in the face never gets old.

 

EDIT: ****ing a gun gets the censor? Really?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Micamo

[Lephys]

EDIT: ****ing a gun gets the censor? Really?

WHAT are you suggesting we do to guns?! *gasp*

 

Haha. I joke.

 

Oh the irony of inadvertent censoring. You actually weren't saying anything bad, but now it appears as though you were. ^_^

 

Delightful.

 

On-topic, though, that's a pretty cool mechanic. There's a lot of things like that I see in games, and they typically don't do as much with them as they could have. It's always like "Hey, we've added a whole new layer to our reactivity!". But, really, it's like adding an aisle to a retail store, and stocking it full of the exact same item.

 

Still. They provide splendid idea foundation slabs,

[Ffordesoon]

On this topic, I'd like to opt for (though it be a minor issue, really) more organic "goodbye" lines. The typical ones always end up being borderline dickish.

 

"Why, would you like any more free healing and equipment? I've got plenty left over!"

 

(Main character): "PEACE OUT, BEECHES!"

 

Hehe. Okay, they aren't THAT bad, but it seems like, even when all the other dialogue options are specifically tailored to exactly what was said last, the same "I'm out of here" line persists throughout, as if it were only designed with player interface functionality in mind. It quite often seems to not fit the actual dialogue in anyway, and comes across as rather rude, because it's essentially an "I no longer wish to speak with you, for even a second more" option. Or, to the player, "Dialogue, CEASE!"

Ugh, this always bugs me.

 

NPC Merchant: "How art thou, o virile fellow! Might I interest you in wares procured from the four corners of the world? Poultices brewed in the forests of Jikabo? Deadly venoms extracted from the Veryllian Leaping Platypus? Perhaps a refreshing box of spicelick shavings scraped from the shores off Volteus Harbor? What can I interest you in, my young friend?"

 

1. "What do you have for sale?"

2. "I have items to sell you."

3. "Bye."

 

I know I'm not supposed to care what it says, but when I pick 3 after that long spiel, I feel like such a jerk. I'd rather it said "Say your goodbyes" or something equally nondescript so I could imagine my character extricating herself in a polite way.

[Longknife]

This is pretty much nitpicking, but... Why?

 

 

Because how else am I supposed to know patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter?

[Lephys]

1. "What do you have for sale?"

2. "I have items to sell you."

3. "Bye."

 

I know I'm not supposed to care what it says, but when I pick 3 after that long spiel, I feel like such a jerk. I'd rather it said "Say your goodbyes" or something equally nondescript so I could imagine my character extricating herself in a polite way.

Haha, yeah. So far, Shadowrun Returns seems to be doing a pretty good job of just having different tonal syntaxes for the same thing, and for changing that "I've got to go..." to something like "Thanks for your time" or "Yeah, that's what I thought" once you've actually utilized other dialogue options after initiating the conversation. However, there are still a few "Neverminds" floating about, even after I engage in polite conversation with someone AND buy things from them. That just feels REALLY weird, at the end of a cordial interaction.

 

"Nevermind? What do you MEAN 'nevermind'? Do you want to return those items you just bought? Did you ask a question and I didn't hear you? I'M CONFUSED, AND/OR YOU'RE A JERK! A strange, strange jerk!"

 

It's not really that big of a deal, but then... it's not really that much work to "fix," either. Add to that the examples of it being "fixed" in the exact same game, so "we didn't want to take the time to change the 'goodbye' line according to the progression of the conversation" doesn't even fly, 'cause they already did so.

 

It would be most pleasant if we didn't have to be too cool for school whenever we mechanically end conversations/interactions. 8P

[Tick]

On this topic, I'd like to opt for (though it be a minor issue, really) more organic "goodbye" lines. The typical ones always end up being borderline dickish.

 

"Why, would you like any more free healing and equipment? I've got plenty left over!"

 

(Main character): "PEACE OUT, BEECHES!"

 

Yeah, that happens a lot in RPG's. The line sounds like it cuts off the conversation/line of thought, so it comes off like it's out of no where and trolling. KOTOR II's isn't terrible, but it will almost make the exit line, "Forget it. I had other questions," or "Nevermind [...]." Even if that doesn't really fit the conversation (it often doesn't). The one that always seemed odd was when a few characters in Fallout: New Vegas, previously friendly or happy or whatever, had the judging, brooding, ominous, silent ellipses as a goodbye. E.g. The Followers of the Apocalypse leader chick. ME's exit lines were real weird, too.

 

Way better than being stuck in a long conversation that you can't skip through/get out of, though.

[motorizer]

It's not about how in-depth their dialogue tree is. It's just more nuanced stranger dialogue, is all. It's that Farm Phil might want to chat with you about random things over a pint at the tavern, but he shouldn't necessarily want to tell you about his hatred for the local lord and the complexities of realm economics merely in response to "Hi" on the street.

 

It's the simple logistics of information delivery, really. If the game wants me to be able to find out a Nightcat's weakness, its only option isn't to have some click-on-able random person wandering the streets, just going about their business, who says "Guess what? If you use poison-tipped arrows and target a Nightcat's tail, it'll go down with ease! 8D!"

 

What is that town filled with INSANE people? They just arbitrarily toss rumors about when people wave at them? "Hi, how's it goi-"

 

"I SUSPECT MY NEIGHBOR OF SMUGGLING CHILDREN IN HIS CELLAR! I haven't told the authorities, yet, but I figured since you said 'Hi' to me, you were probably a good person to tell. BYE 8D!"

It would be good if someone did give you a quest like that, and if you took it up it would turn out that you were working for a complete nutcase, and had attacked innocent people or laid waste to a peaceful settlement, or simply interfered where you were not wanted

You could get arrested and face a stern telling off about believing everything you are told by strangers.

[Walsingham]

I'm afraid that AGX-17's point trumps anything else you chaps might say.

 

If the idea is too resource intensive then forget it.

 

HOWEVER.

 

I suggest two alternative ways:

 

1. A lucky dip approach, where a small number of interesting conversations are salted throughout the entire random NPC population. To be known as a 'Walsingham Rally' because I think I just invented it.

 

2. Exploit your fans by having a competition for 100 conversation trees. Fixed format, fixed elements, different dialogue. Not an open vote system, to preserve the surprises.

[Amentep]

There's depth and breadth, but I think there's also a certain lack of verisimilitude being referenced in the thread.

 

Depth and breadth need more writers and/or more time.

 

Verisimilitude in some of the examples above could be handled by a Quest Board or a reputation/fame threshold that prevents someone who is neither known locally or nationally to be approached by random people and told their deep dark "I keep skeevers in my basement illegally and wolves have gotten in and are killing them" secrets.

[anubite]

There's depth and breadth, but I think there's also a certain lack of verisimilitude being referenced in the thread.

 

Depth and breadth need more writers and/or more time.

 

Verisimilitude in some of the examples above could be handled by a Quest Board or a reputation/fame threshold that prevents someone who is neither known locally or nationally to be approached by random people and told their deep dark "I keep skeevers in my basement illegally and wolves have gotten in and are killing them" secrets.

Right. But in my original post I'm careful to point this out. I'm not asking for depth or breadth, I'm talking about how you word simple one-liners to be less jarring.

 

Some reactivity to your actions is something they should already be planning for though. I needn't remind them of that.

[Lephys]

I'm afraid that AGX-17's point trumps anything else you chaps might say.

 

If the idea is too resource intensive then forget it.

... "If"...

 

(I still like your alternatives, though.)

[J.E. Sawyer]

In F:NV, specifically, the lines were all recorded and the bark strings didn't necessarily pop-up depending on your settings.  A long line that included a greeting took up time -- recording time and listener time.  PE will allow for more verbose and varied replies, including simple greetings.  Variety often requires time, which is something we didn't have a lot of on F:NV.  We wrote about 65,000 lines of dialogue for the game and a lot of quest/world states to respond to across a lot of different factions.  Because it was all voiced, the game's release date wasn't the deadline -- it was the recording schedule, which started months earlier.

[Lephys]

The response is much appreciated, Josh. ^_^

 

Although dialogue depth and variety, in general, is splendid and sought after, the root idea here was, I think, an effort to brainstorm regarding a more organic approach to people's initial reactions.

 

I don't really know about it being a thing "Obsidian always does," but many an existing game (regardless of developer) does it. It's not that no one should ever wish to engage you in conversation until you've saved their first-born child from an evil dragon. It's just that, well... sometimes too many people seem far too happy to just arbitrarily spout out information that, private or not, doesn't really seem to be stuff people would respond to "Hi" with.

 

I recently started to replay Arcanum ('cause I never did finish it, fully, way back when), and I noticed that that game did a pretty nice job of handling this. At least in what I saw so far. You can stop almost anyone in the street and speak to them, but it feels like an actual conversation. They might say "Yes, can I help you with something?", or "...What do you need? Hurry up!", depending on reaction and Charisma and all that jazz. But, you then ask them if they can tell you about the town, or area, or specific things. Sometimes they tell you things, and sometimes they don't.

 

Also, BG's system of hearing rumors over tavern drinks (though a little crude -- can you blame it for having been made so long ago?) handles this pretty well. And, while you can certainly run around in inns and in people's houses, they're usually not very happy to speak to you. They speak to you as if you've just entered their house, and/or are a random stranger, and not as if they are robots whose only reason for existence is to present you with useful rumors and tidbits.

 

This could even be a nice facet to the whole persuasion thing (and it not just being a stat/skill switch). Are you just walking up to a guy's house and asking him about his business? He might not want to talk to you, under the circumstances. You catch that very same guy in the market, perusing materials and wares, and you strike up a conversation about prices and availability of goods coming into town, and how it's affecting business, and he might happily tell you about how his own business is being affected.

 

*shrug*

[anubite]

I don't imagine Obsidian always does it, I just titled it that way so it'd get hits. Making a big claim will get a response out of somebody.

 

And I don't necessarily fault Obsidian for how NV turned out. Some of the lines were jarring, but when I played it, I didn't let it bother me, because it was basically a AAA game (a lovely one at that), and I know where priorities lie when you have so much writing and voice acting to do.

 

But I don't think I'm asking for something expensive here - unless what I'm saying is going misinerpreted. Yes, it might add a few seconds onto certain lines to include a "how are you" or a "who are you again?" or just a "Hello" onto the initial greetings of a given NPC, but that cost doesn't exist in an unvoiced game. Well, depending upon implementation there can be a cost. But there are some NPCs in NV, as well as many other RPGs, I don't think the blame can be squared on Obsidian alone, but just that, it's a common trope for NPCs to be loose-lipped when they probably (realistically) wouldn't be. It's the kind of trope that seems meaningless to fret over, and if you're making a AAA game, I'd agree that it is (99% of your consumers won't notice), but if you're shooting for perfection here, which, I don't know if it's really possible, but...

 

Can they just say Hello? I mean, yes, it might be odd to have the same NPC say hello to you if you talk to them ten times in a minute, but players will have to actively go out of their way to see that. I'd rather the line say Hello that it not say Hello:

 

Hello, have you seen that giant dragon that crossed into the city a few minutes ago?

Have you seen that giant dragon that crossed into the city a few minutes ago?

 

Which of these "obligatory NPC providing exposition" lines is better if it's the only line that NPC will say? The first one. If NPCs can only be static creatures, I'd rather they'd politely greet me, unless they're an impolite street urchin or whatever. It just feels like the second line is often chosen for whatever reason - and it's a sort of subtle psychology - reminding you that the game world isn't "real". Sure, an NPC spouting the same line over and over isn't real at all, but I find the first iteration: <greeting> <gossip> - even if it's all contained in the same line - to be better than <gossip>.

 

That's my main point. It's a tiny nuanced detail and maybe it has no bearing at all on anyone's mind. Maybe it's a small trifle that really has little to do with making a good game (instead of trying to do the impossible and make a "perfect" one). I can agree there are better things Sawyer or other developers could spend their time on... but there isn't any cost if they do it from the get go. I suppose it might be too late - NPCs might already have their lines already written at this point.

 

But even so. If everyone can close their eyes and imagine for a moment a perfect RPG - I think we'd all agree it would allow you to converse deeply with the static residents of a settlement. If you needed to milk someone for information, walking up to them and saying, "What's going on?" Might earn you a glare or a wary expression. You'd greed an NPC, offer to assist them or perhaps they would you, and then you would learn a rurmor or two from them. It's not as though a system like this hasn't been done before, I'm vaguely aware of some old MUDs that have had this kind of functionality. I mean, it's maybe not all that exciting, but it can be done.

 

It's not what I'm asking for though. I think a simple <greeting> can be enough in most cases.

Edited July 31, 2013 by anubite

[J. Trudel]

Generic dialog could be an answer for that so unatural feel about the generic nps in the world. I don't think it would sky rocket the developpement time and the game world would feel soooo much much more immersive. 

 

In a usual generic encounter situation :

 

Me : '' Hello, could you help me find a good place to have a drink ?'' (Okay that's the role play version of me clicking on the gard at the town entrance.)

 

Guard : ''Welcome to our city'' (Generic dialog # 1)

 

Me : ''Hey, your not helping !'' (Clicking again on the guard)

 

Guard : ''I used to be an adventurer like yourself, but then I took an arrow in the knee'' (Generic dialog # 2) 

 

Me : ... 

 

With a location/function based generic dialog system it could go like this :

 

Me : (Clicking on the guard)

 

Guard : Can I help you with something ? (This may be most human used one liner ever, so why not just include it ?)

 

Me : 

1 - I'm looking for a place to...

2 - Hey, I just noticed a crime ! (Persuade check) (Could be a good way to create a diversion)

3 - Wow, you city is nice can you tell me about it ?  (The one I'm choosing)

 

Guard : Can't you see I'm working ? If you want to chat you might go at the tavern it's just further down the street. 

 

Me : ... 

 

Of course, this generic dialog approach could be random and location dependent, at least we would be able to ask directions when lost

 

Also please don't make everyone repeat themselfves over and over. A few hundred lines would probably be enough for use to get bored speaking with generic folks before it can runs out. 

 

One more idea, dialog of you pc might be selected before you approach someone, this way the conversation would feel much more realistic and I'mmersive. 

 

Me : (Click on the dialog button)

1 - I'm sorry to disturb you but... 

2 - Hey you're really cute you know that... 

3 - Give me your money or you're as good as dead (Intimidate)

4 - ...

Etc etc. 

Edited July 31, 2013 by J. Trudel

[Ffordesoon]

@J.E. Sawyer:

 

If I may break away from the topic for the moment to show my appreciation, the level of reactivity you guys managed to cram into New Vegas under such tight restrictions was mind-boggling.

 

I still get a big stupid grin on my face every time I think about the fact that you can talk your way into Benny's bed and slit his throat while he's asleep if you play as a woman and take the Black Widow perk. I actually reloaded the game and did the same thing again to be sure I wasn't hallucinating, because I could not believe I was being allowed that much choice in a modern voice-acted RPG. The level of choice there and in Alpha Protocol kind of spoiled other games for me.

 

I'm happy to hear you guys have much more freedom on PE as well, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciated the attention you guys paid to that aspect of New Vegas in every aspect of the design.

 

I realize it's early days right now, and this might not be an answerable question, but do you plan to have an equivalent level of player choice in PE? Perhaps even more? By which I mean all NPCs being killable, different world-states depending on player actions, multiple solutions to quests, et cetera?

 

I don't want to rope you into promising anything you're not ready to commit to, but it'd be cool to know that's something on your minds.

[Lephys]

@anubite:

 

I don't think you're being nitpicky. It's the little things that make the world go 'round. And the big things are usually just structures for how the little things Voltron together. 8P

 

Also, I wasn't trying to suggest you were actually attempting to point some big finger at Obsidian. On the contrary... I was just trying to point out that that wasn't really the intention of the thread title. The trope is MUCH more prevalent, to my knowledge, in console JRPGs than in ANY Obsidian game, ever.

 

I mean, in those games, you've got things like "I sure hope that unlocked chest of gold in the attic of my big blue house at the end of the street doesn't get bothered today..." when you approach someone and press the "interact" button.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Lephys

[J. Trudel]

What I would give to be able to actually ask a merchant : Hey that's a nice sword on the counter there, why it's not in you inventory menu ? I want to buy it, do you really want me to steal it ? ... Then I took an arrow in the knee...

[AGX-17]

Then I took an arrow in the knee...

[Walsingham]

We should be having this debate in the lounge of a large metropolitan airport.

 

I love people watching at airports. And the conversations are illuminating in their insane variety.