That Thing Obsidian Always Does

[anubite]

Have you guys played Fallout New Vegas lately...?

 

What happens when you approach a general-populace NPC and try to talk to him? 

 

Does he...

 

A) Introduce himself.

B) Say Hello.

C) Comment about some inane thing because hey he's not a person he's a vehicle for narrative or exposition.

 

If you picked C, you're right. Most of the time, in Obsidian games, "generic peasant" characters don't even try to pretend that they're not exposition vehicles.

 

This is pretty much nitpicking, but... Why? It's a bit jarring to approach a character and for him to say something totally non-sequitur to a stranger like myself. This is such a small request, and it's probably an extra burden on the writing staff, but... could they just say Hi? Could the expoisition dialog be written a little more natural for those "masses" characters?

 

Guy at the bar: "Hi, how're you? Need somethin'? I'd offer ya a drink, but I don't have any money since the Wall fell."

 

That to me, is an example of short and simple yet natural exposition. Yet, some games would have this same character simply say, "Hey, did ya hear about the Wall falling?" 

 

Any steps made to flesh out these lowly unimportant NPC characters are good, worthwhile steps. It's not easy to give life to generic characters you can talk to, but I think a little more effort could be paid to them, if time allows. They are good exposition vehicles, but when you abuse them so... it kind of hurts the experience. It's kind of become a video game trope at this point.

[Nonek]

"Pardon me stranger, but I don't really want anything to do with somebody so well armed! No offence."

 

Adventurers, sellswords, and bravos might have a well deserved or totally unwarranted reputation among the common folk, making wariness and a closemouthed approach somewhat stereotypical. One can imagine that a small village, boasting a couple of guards and a reeve might look upon six heavily armed, armoured and spiritually potent mercenaries with more than a touch of scepticism. Even in the big cities one can imagine that even the local thugs and thumpers might steer clear of such difficult prey, mugging drunkards in back alleys with a shiv is a completely different thing to tackling a longsword weilding armoured juggernaut.

 

It might be nice to see such reactions to the characters profession, after all even the soldier who stands the line would blanch at what the typical adventurer endures in the stygian gloom of hellish dungeons. One can imagine that even the grateful villager, who's life has been saved by the protagonist is more than keen to see him move on, after all danger and the unnatural seem drawn to such ill fated individuals.

[Amentep]

In games that use VO for every line of dialogue, paying the voice actor/actress to say a bunch of naturalistic lines leading up to the real wind-up and pitch is probably not cost effective.

 

PE doesn't have that concern, so it'll be interesting to see how it does its character/non-joinable NPCs banter.

 

(Even still the IE games had similar problems).

[Lephys]

What if there were actually like "small talk" opportunities throughout areas? You know, to actually give people a reason to strike up a conversation. Waiting in line somewhere, or browsing in the market. You could pull the whole weather comment thing at the fruit stall, as the person interested in fruit might actually have some interest/knowledge regarding the impact of the weather on the fruit, etc. But it's not something super personal. So, you've stricken up a conversation, and you can slowly get info out of them.

 

Nothing super extensive. Just, "Hey, you didn't awkwardly walk up to me and start asking me intricate details about the people of this town, and where they live, and whether or not they lock their windows at night." Maybe someone at the market would potentially talk to you about where the produce comes from and/or who owns the farm, or about other people who frequent the marketplace, or maybe they'll even give you a hint about how to get better prices from a given merchant (i.e. "he really likes animals... if he thinks you're a loving animal appreciator, he'll likely be more amiable to deal-making").

 

Of course, with certain things, stopping someone at random would be fine. Such as "Excuse me, but could you direct me to the garrison/square" or "I was wondering if you could recommend a tavern/inn for the night. I've only just arrived here."

 

Heck, maybe taverns could actually be the best places to go to learn about the goings on of the town, whether its from eavesdropping on conversations from people relieving stress at the end of the day, or speaking directly to drunken people who are more loose-lipped than their sober counterparts.

 

It is a bit unsettling, though, when everyone's just totally prepared to reveal rather personal information to complete strangers, and don't think it's weird that you've just stopped them in the street to ask about their family.

[Sensuki]

People say Hi in Knights of the Old Republic 2

[AW8]

People say Hi in Knights of the Old Republic 2

 

Exile: "Hi do you know the way to-"

Female Telosian: "The war has really inflated prices here in the Outer Rim. Medical supplies are in short supply, and high demand."

 

Exile: "Ey, where can you buy-"

Male Telosian: "Czerka's mercenaries are getting out of hand, and they're too much for the TSF to handle. We need Republic troops to restore order."

[Hormalakh]

I find it particularly disturbing that someone who barely knows who you are is so easily willing to give his thoughts on so dangerous a topic as politics. While some countries have people who very easily talk about politics, most people (especially in those places where the populace are oppressed) are unlikely to come out and say something about any governmental action to a random stranger. Who knows if you're a government agent or not?

 

It sounds a little weird when one of the many cultural idiosyncracies of the American population to be so free when speaking is placed in a game world possibly without the same freedoms. It is an assumption that the developers make which doesn't ring true for many who live outside the states.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Micamo]

In games that use VO for every line of dialogue, paying the voice actor/actress to say a bunch of naturalistic lines leading up to the real wind-up and pitch is probably not cost effective.

This. Especially in AAA titles that like to make up for bad writing and direction by throwing money at the problem by hiring the most expensive actors available. With this in mind, I think FO:NV did a relatively great job at striking a balance between natural-sounding conversation and using its lines efficiently.

 

Using written prose instead of spoken lines gives you a lot more freedom, but sadly full voice acting is the industry standard now.

[Klice]

"Pardon me stranger, but I don't really want anything to do with somebody so well armed! No offence."

 

Adventurers, sellswords, and bravos might have a well deserved or totally unwarranted reputation among the common folk, making wariness and a closemouthed approach somewhat stereotypical. One can imagine that a small village, boasting a couple of guards and a reeve might look upon six heavily armed, armoured and spiritually potent mercenaries with more than a touch of scepticism. Even in the big cities one can imagine that even the local thugs and thumpers might steer clear of such difficult prey, mugging drunkards in back alleys with a shiv is a completely different thing to tackling a longsword weilding armoured juggernaut.

 

It might be nice to see such reactions to the characters profession, after all even the soldier who stands the line would blanch at what the typical adventurer endures in the stygian gloom of hellish dungeons. One can imagine that even the grateful villager, who's life has been saved by the protagonist is more than keen to see him move on, after all danger and the unnatural seem drawn to such ill fated individuals.

 

It's actually the case in BG. I haven't replayed SoA or ToB for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it's the same in there. So I have good hope about that in P:E !

[SophosTheWise]

I absolutely agree, but to be honest I have never thought extensively about that because it's just some kind of RPG paradigm. There are a few situations where it REALLY bothered me, tough. Maybe you've played the abomination that is Two Worlds 2. It was one of the first quests, I think. The village was ravaged by famine (even though the savanna was blooming with life...) and upon arrival my really unlikeable and kind of sexist and arrogant "hero" started speaking to the people - and also to the village chieftain who gave me her most valuable horse after two lines of conversation to ride to another town and get help. Seriously...

 

I was given to understand that PE takes place in times of political... difficulties. And in such times people should be a bit suspicious and cautious and not be telling me everything I want to know right away. I love bargaining for information instead of just clicking through 4 "options" which are just lines of dialogue that are clickable for the sake of giving an illusion of choice. I don't know where I'm going with this whole thesis, but I'd really like to see real dialogue, with introductions, maybe people who don't like me based on my appearance/charisma and don't want to talk to me so I have to come by the information another way (intimitating, torturing/beating, stealing papers, whatever floats your boat). But dialogues shouldn't be all about conversation but as Lephys has said also for small talk and flavour. Have you seen the latest demo of Shroud of the Avatar where you could actually "chat" with NPCs? That was awesome (even though I distrust Garriott) and I hope that we can talk about really unimportant things, just to get a sense of the world.

[exodiark]

It sounds good on the paper, but wait until the game is extensively delayed and go over budget because Obsidian have to prepare:
- speech when PC meet them for the first time.
- speech after PC met them for the first time. (I mean, it would be weird if NPCs keep saying "Hi!" "Good Morning!" to you repeatedly right?)
- speech after PC get "friendly" with them.

for every lowly NPCs. Oh and? Those speech? They have to change according to the story too. So three sets before the city is bombed, three sets after the city is bombed, three sets after PC destroyed the bandits, etc.

I think NPC as exposition machine is an acceptable break of reality, because they are supposed to be a source of glance-able information. Extra paddings like "Good Morning!" "Hi!" are simply distracting when the next 50 NPCs will say the same greetings to you. Their job is simply to drop information, and quickly move on.

Also, if the NPC is being secretive, the developer will waste so many resources just to get their simplest point across.

PC: Hi! Can you show me the way to Farm A?
All NPCs in town: No I don't want to rat Farm A's owner to NSA agent like you. Go away.
PC: But I... I was... I was told to help him.
All NPCs in town: No, GTFO.

Then players have to read confusing road signs just to reach Farm A.

Edited July 17, 2013 by exodiark

[Nonek]

If they can make npc's half as deep and interesting as those in Torment i'll be more than happy, they added an amazing amount of depth to the bustling streets of Sigil in my eyes, well worth the time and effort to invest in this. Makes the gameworld feel alive, rather than just a player centric theatre of conflict.

[Micamo]

Also, if the NPC is being secretive, the developer will waste so many resources just to get their simplest point across.

 

PC: Hi! Can you show me the way to Farm A?

All NPCs in town: No I don't want to rat Farm A's owner to NSA agent like you. Go away.

PC: But I... I was... I was told to help him.

All NPCs in town: No, GTFO.

 

Then players have to read confusing road signs just to reach Farm A.

Also, this is very much a way of poisoning the well. If you make all the NPCs the player tries to talk to just waste the player's time, the player will stop bothering to read what the NPCs have to say. Then when you throw in an NPC that's actually interesting and you intend for the player to speak to, they'll just skip right on by them because they'll assume they have nothing important to say.

 

This isn't just a theoretical either: This exact problem is what turned me off from Sacred. What's the point of having a big open world to explore and dozens of NPCs in each town to talk to if all of them say "Leave me alone" and "Why are you bothering me?" I eventually gave up on talking to NPCs in that game altogether. And once you take out that, you just have the ****ty lootgrind mechanics and... well... I'll stick to Torchlight, thanks.

 

This is one of the reasons why they started putting exclamation marks over people's heads to indicate you need to talk to them: It's easier to give the player a filter so they know who they need to talk to and who has nothing to say, than to make a world interesting enough that the player will actually want to take the time to explore it.

[Ffordesoon]

This is one of a few areas where Western RPGs can learn from JRPGs. I know that sounds weird, but I'm not saying you should just be able to get one line out of a dude standing in one spot with no variation. I'm saying that while I love having the level of choice in conversation that Western RPGs provide, there are far too many characters who are just there to make the gameworld feel populated, but don't add anything unique to the table. As inane as most JRPG "conversations" (which aren't real conversations most of the time, since you're mainly just advancing through speech bubbles of characters talking at you rather than bringing anything of your own to the table), they rarely populate the world with junk NPCs who all say the same five things.

 

If you look at, say, Persona 4 Golden, there are like three or four NPC models for about eighty NPCs, and only a few of them move, usually in a straight line. But, because of the way dialogue is structured, each of them comes to feel like a character in his or her own right. And a lot of that is due to exactly the sort of small talk the OP describes. The lady outside the PC's house during the day who struggles to get her mother-in-law to like her cooking is completely pointless from a pure gameplay perspective. I think she does maybe one thing that's vaguely relevant to helping your character? Maybe?

 

But she feels more vividly drawn than any NPC in Skyrim, and all of the non-voiced NPCs in Fallout, give or take a couple. Because she has a little story arc that plays out over the course of the game, one that is beautifully irrelevant to the overarching narrative. Her mother-in-law never becomes a monster, and it's never revealed that the food is mind-control food or something. There's just this lady, completely oblivious to your wants amd needs, yammering on about the most boring subject imaginable. And yet, if you follow along with her little story to the very end, when she tells you her mother-in-law finally liked something she cooked near the end of the game, you're genuinely happy for her.

 

This is a character who I'm pretty sure has not one frame of animation. She is literally just a character model. But she (and, to be clear, all the other unvoiced, unnamed characters playing out their own little stories while you're doing Important Work) is a unique character with her own wants and needs, and those wants and needs are entirely separate from the protagonist's.

 

Contrast that with the hundreds of generic NPCs that populate Oblivion or Skyrim (which at least did a slightly better job with them in that their lines were separated by region and/or occupation), who mostly exist in a bubble and occasionally talk to each other about a few generic subjects per region, all of which are of interest to the player.

 

Persona 4 has a tiny number of locations you can go to and characters you can talk to, and Golden only adds a couple. But because there are no NPCs that are obviously there to dispense quests, and because many of them literally will not dispense quests until you get to know them a little better, even when they give you quests to complete, it's like, "Oh, what's the problem, dude?" rather than "GIMME GIMME GIMME COME ON SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP I WANT DAT XP SON."

 

I think this is also why the NPCs in the Souls games are so beloved and memorable, beyond just being deeply weird characters; anything you get out of them must be extracted from them at their pace rather than yours, which forces you to get to know them.

 

Torment, as much as it does suffer from generic-NPC-itis, is still probably the closest I've seen a Western RPG get to the idea of interesting characters who don't immediately proffer an explanation of who they are, what they do, and why you should care - which, oddly, seems to be the secret, or a secret, to getting players to care. If you look at the lists of the most popular characters in almost any given RPG series, Western or Japanese, they're always the ones who don't proffer information about themselves freely. Yes, even in Bioware games: HK-47, Tali (she does give you information freely, actually, but they got away with it by putting her face behind a mask), Death's Hand, Thane Krios, Jolee Bindo, Shale, Sten, Morrigan, Legion, Mordin Solus...

 

It also might be why the companions nobody likes in any RPG tend to be the ones you get first.

 

(One-sentence rant, BTW: If I never, ever play another RPG where my first party member is the Chirpy Childhood BFF/Most Likely Love Interest/Imoen, it will be too soon.)

 

Actually, it's why companions are so popular in the first place, isn't it? Because you have to put work into getting to know them before you benefit from their full power.

 

I don't know that every character in PE should be an evasive jerk or anything, but I would like to see a mix of straightforward characters ("HOW 'BOUT THEM DRAGONS, HUH?"), characters who are evasive until you get to know them ("We can talk... but not about me."), and characters who never entirely give up the goods ("A lady must have her secrets.").

 

I do like the idea of a "small talk" option as well. Maybe that could work a bit like a JRPG conversation, where you just hit small talk and find out a little tidbit of information about them.

[TrashMan]

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/04/12/episode-015-a-little-intellectual-conversation/

 

http://www.shortpacked.com/2006/comic/book-3-is-totally-gay/07-dirty-pool/hiimdaisy/

Edited July 18, 2013 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

Yes, even in Bioware games: HK-47, Tali (she does give you information freely, actually, but they got away with it by putting her face behind a mask), Death's Hand, Thane Krios, Jolee Bindo, Shale, Sten, Morrigan, Legion, Mordin Solus...

 

It also might be why the companions nobody likes in any RPG tend to be the ones you get first.

 

 

 

What if I told you....

 

I actually often like the companions I get first and 90% of the characters you mentioend I don't really like?

[Micamo]

This is one of a few areas where Western RPGs can learn from JRPGs. I know that sounds weird, but I'm not saying you should just be able to get one line out of a dude standing in one spot with no variation. I'm saying that while I love having the level of choice in conversation that Western RPGs provide, there are far too many characters who are just there to make the gameworld feel populated, but don't add anything unique to the table. As inane as most JRPG "conversations" (which aren't real conversations most of the time, since you're mainly just advancing through speech bubbles of characters talking at you rather than bringing anything of your own to the table), they rarely populate the world with junk NPCs who all say the same five things.

 

If you look at, say, Persona 4 Golden, there are like three or four NPC models for about eighty NPCs, and only a few of them move, usually in a straight line. But, because of the way dialogue is structured, each of them comes to feel like a character in his or her own right. And a lot of that is due to exactly the sort of small talk the OP describes. The lady outside the PC's house during the day who struggles to get her mother-in-law to like her cooking is completely pointless from a pure gameplay perspective. I think she does maybe one thing that's vaguely relevant to helping your character? Maybe?

 

But she feels more vividly drawn than any NPC in Skyrim, and all of the non-voiced NPCs in Fallout, give or take a couple. Because she has a little story arc that plays out over the course of the game, one that is beautifully irrelevant to the overarching narrative. Her mother-in-law never becomes a monster, and it's never revealed that the food is mind-control food or something. There's just this lady, completely oblivious to your wants amd needs, yammering on about the most boring subject imaginable. And yet, if you follow along with her little story to the very end, when she tells you her mother-in-law finally liked something she cooked near the end of the game, you're genuinely happy for her.

 

This is a character who I'm pretty sure has not one frame of animation. She is literally just a character model. But she (and, to be clear, all the other unvoiced, unnamed characters playing out their own little stories while you're doing Important Work) is a unique character with her own wants and needs, and those wants and needs are entirely separate from the protagonist's.

This isn't so much a divide between "Western" and "Eastern" as it is a divide between "Good Design" and "Bad Design." Empathy for an NPC comes in many forms and can be a powerful tool when used correctly, and there are many, many ways for it to go wrong. Final Fantasy 13 is a good example of a game that tries really hard to make you empathize with its characters and just fails on every imaginable level.

 

Contrast that with the hundreds of generic NPCs that populate Oblivion or Skyrim (which at least did a slightly better job with them in that their lines were separated by region and/or occupation), who mostly exist in a bubble and occasionally talk to each other about a few generic subjects per region, all of which are of interest to the player.

 

Persona 4 has a tiny number of locations you can go to and characters you can talk to, and Golden only adds a couple. But because there are no NPCs that are obviously there to dispense quests, and because many of them literally will not dispense quests until you get to know them a little better, even when they give you quests to complete, it's like, "Oh, what's the problem, dude?" rather than "GIMME GIMME GIMME COME ON SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP I WANT DAT XP SON."

 

I think this is also why the NPCs in the Souls games are so beloved and memorable, beyond just being deeply weird characters; anything you get out of them must be extracted from them at their pace rather than yours, which forces you to get to know them.

Thing is there's only so many lines you can include in a game (no voice acting greatly expands this budget but doesn't make it infinite): You can choose to spend this dialogue budget on a small number of very deep NPCs, or on a large number of relatively shallow NPCs. Persona goes for the former and Skyrim goes for the latter, but as far as I'm concerned they're both valid approaches. The advantage of the latter method is that it allows you to create a world with scope, which is where I think Bethesda really shines as a developer. Compare how Skyrim feels when you're just wandering around exploring stuff and how it feels when you're doing the main questline listening to NPCs monologue what you need to do next.

 

Torment, as much as it does suffer from generic-NPC-itis, is still probably the closest I've seen a Western RPG get to the idea of interesting characters who don't immediately proffer an explanation of who they are, what they do, and why you should care - which, oddly, seems to be the secret, or a secret, to getting players to care. If you look at the lists of the most popular characters in almost any given RPG series, Western or Japanese, they're always the ones who don't proffer information about themselves freely. Yes, even in Bioware games: HK-47, Tali (she does give you information freely, actually, but they got away with it by putting her face behind a mask), Death's Hand, Thane Krios, Jolee Bindo, Shale, Sten, Morrigan, Legion, Mordin Solus...

 

It also might be why the companions nobody likes in any RPG tend to be the ones you get first.

I don't think it's so much about companions being evasive and more about pacing. It's better to space out meaty interactions instead of giving them to you all at once in a giant dump. DAO somewhat had this problem where almost every conversation option you could have with a companion could be done pretty much as soon as that companion was recruited. If you're anything like me, you go through every last one at the start, then check back after every story event to see if they have anything new to say and get frustrated as they rarely do.

[anubite]

It sounds good on the paper, but wait until the game is extensively delayed and go over budget because Obsidian have to prepare:

- speech when PC meet them for the first time.

- speech after PC met them for the first time. (I mean, it would be weird if NPCs keep saying "Hi!" "Good Morning!" to you repeatedly right?)

- speech after PC get "friendly" with them.

 

for every lowly NPCs. Oh and? Those speech? They have to change according to the story too. So three sets before the city is bombed, three sets after the city is bombed, three sets after PC destroyed the bandits, etc.

 

I think NPC as exposition machine is an acceptable break of reality, because they are supposed to be a source of glance-able information. Extra paddings like "Good Morning!" "Hi!" are simply distracting when the next 50 NPCs will say the same greetings to you. Their job is simply to drop information, and quickly move on.

 

Also, if the NPC is being secretive, the developer will waste so many resources just to get their simplest point across.

 

PC: Hi! Can you show me the way to Farm A?

All NPCs in town: No I don't want to rat Farm A's owner to NSA agent like you. Go away.

PC: But I... I was... I was told to help him.

All NPCs in town: No, GTFO.

 

Then players have to read confusing road signs just to reach Farm A.

I think you make an important point, that it will consume resources to meet my request, but you don't have to write separate lines. You simply need an algorithim to do it for you.

 

Here's how you program it:

 

Every "generic" NPC has a boolean, "bHaveMet". It's set to false when an NPC is first created, you haven't met them. bHaveMet is set to true after you talk to them for the first time.

 

Every time you talk to a "generic" NPC, there's a condition check (if bHaveMet = true). If it's true then the algorithim searches the text that's about to be put out for phrases, "Hi", "How are you" et cetera; it removes these lines, leaving the rest of the output in-tact.

 

This algorithim would be a little challenging to deal with as a writer, because now you can't use certain phrases and greetings in repeatable NPC dialog, but the trade-off would be managable.

 

This seems like a lot of work all for a little rephrasing, but I do think it's paramount to maintain the "believability" of a world. There are /some/ things that can't be helped. Obsidian has to decide those things. But the less things that remind you you're "playing an RPG" the better.

 

Of course, my little algorithim may not be the ideal solution either. If we don't want devs to write a extra lines for generic characters, I'm sure there are other ways to go about this. Obsidian IS creating a whole new world here - perhaps all the cultures in PE don't believe in saying hello  Or perhaps they always say a certain phrase when meeting someone, even if they've just recently spoken. Cultures can have oddities like that.

 

My favorite line in Chinese/Japenese is 'hao jiu bu jian / hi sashi buri desu' which is where the English phrase, "Long time, no see" (probably) comes from. It's got a kind of weird vibe to the phrase. It could be, people believe so deeply in the concept of souls, that they believe they have all met one another in the past, and when they meet again, a second could feel like a lifetime or something...? If you get what I'm saying here, there's a lot they could do to make generic NPC dialog really fascinating. I could see a whole culture of people using this phrase all the time, to people they even just saw, as a form of natural greeting. We wouldn't require multiple iterations of speech, in that case.

Edited July 18, 2013 by anubite

[Nonek]

Really love local phrases and sayings, adds so much to a setting through such a simple mechanic. Auld ****ney in Sigil, a pearl to you and good business to you in Athkatla etcetera.

 

Edit: The obscenity blocker is rather puritanical isn't it?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Nonek

[Tick]

There are situations I could see that people comment or focus on an event instead of actually greeting you, such as when a big disaster just happened. But even with that, you have a good point.

 

Generally, this doesn't bother me, at least in part because I'm used to seeing it in games. What I start to notice, though, are lines like:

"Heard some more people got attacked last night."

"Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter."

"I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took an arrow to the knee.."

 

The first one was worse, because everyone in one, tiny room were saying the same thing in the same way.

If NPC's repeat a line too often, especially when they're next to each or the line's odd, the game/world loses some credibility.

 

More natural, believable dialogue would be great, though.

[AGX-17]

Demanding an in-depth dialogue tree and life story for every NPC in the game is comically, nay, idiotically unfeasible. If Obsidian had a team of 2000 professional writers they wouldn't be able to do it on account of the fact that maybe 1% of them would actually get paid, based on the game budget.

[Lephys]

It's not about how in-depth their dialogue tree is. It's just more nuanced stranger dialogue, is all. It's that Farm Phil might want to chat with you about random things over a pint at the tavern, but he shouldn't necessarily want to tell you about his hatred for the local lord and the complexities of realm economics merely in response to "Hi" on the street.

 

It's the simple logistics of information delivery, really. If the game wants me to be able to find out a Nightcat's weakness, its only option isn't to have some click-on-able random person wandering the streets, just going about their business, who says "Guess what? If you use poison-tipped arrows and target a Nightcat's tail, it'll go down with ease! 8D!"

 

What is that town filled with INSANE people? They just arbitrarily toss rumors about when people wave at them? "Hi, how's it goi-"

 

"I SUSPECT MY NEIGHBOR OF SMUGGLING CHILDREN IN HIS CELLAR! I haven't told the authorities, yet, but I figured since you said 'Hi' to me, you were probably a good person to tell. BYE 8D!"

[Ffordesoon]

 

 

Yes, even in Bioware games: HK-47, Tali (she does give you information freely, actually, but they got away with it by putting her face behind a mask), Death's Hand, Thane Krios, Jolee Bindo, Shale, Sten, Morrigan, Legion, Mordin Solus...

 

It also might be why the companions nobody likes in any RPG tend to be the ones you get first.

 

 

What if I told you....

 

I actually often like the companions I get first and 90% of the characters you mentioend I don't really like?

If you told me that, I would say, "Um, okay."

 

I find that people tend to dislike the companions they get first, but I'm not saying everybody does. It's just something I've noticed. I have not forced everyone I know to take exhaustive surveys about which companions they liked and which companions they didn't. I'm not in any way suggesting it's the Only Logical Conclusion. If it came across that way, I apologize.

 

I was thinking out loud more than anything. Which always seems to get people hacked off at me for some reason I can't quite fathom. They seem to have this idea that I am making pronouncements from atop a hill, when all I'm really doing is examining ideas in public and seeing if I hit on something worth exploring. Maybe it's the lack of what they percieve as direct engagement with their points that annoys them? I dunno. :/

 

@Micamo:

 

I suppose. I think there's something to the idea I proffered, but you're not wrong either.

 

The extent to which I'd say there's a genuine difference between Western and Japanese (and I very deliberately did not say Western and Eastern, because the design and stylistic choices I'm talking about are largely specific to Japanese RPGs, and because I don't have much knowledge of RPGs from elsewhere in Asia or the Middle East, and the ones I do have knowledge of have a noticeably different sensibility to them) RPGs has as much to do with the commercial realities of the Western market as it does Western design sensibilities. I think there's a conscious desire to not "waste the player's time" in WRPGs, especially modern console-centric ones, and while I think that desire is often a noble one, there's a certain artfulness in the methodical pacing of Japanese RPGs (and, indeed, Japanese games in general - at least, when they're not trying to be "Western") that Western RPGs (and Western games) have sort of lost.

 

You are correct that what I was talking about in the previous post is as much about pacing as it is NPC dialogue. My point, as obtuse as it probably was, is that it is easier to buy into a world in which not everything is about making the player happy. I've seen many here express similar sentiments, though taking the rhetorically circuitous route to that point seems to have been a poor choice.

 

Coming back to Persona 4, I don't think that game would be nearly as good as it is if it was paced any differently. The time the player puts into getting to know the town of Inaba and its inhabitants allows the player to form a strong bond with the fiction. The plot alone might be interesting and enjoyable, but it wouldn't be half the game it is if all the days that weren't "plot-relevant" were removed. It's because so many days are comparatively insignificant that the plot-relevant days have the impact they do.

 

I think it would be very difficult for a Western team to make the same game (or, if you like, a Western equivalent, since P4 is pretty steeped in Japanese culture), especially if they didn't have the precedent of Persona 4 to follow. They would have to be indie, and might not be able to raise funds on Kickstarter - not without a lot of work ahead of time, at least. It'd be a damn miracle if they succeeded at it despite being funded by a publisher in the current market. Which is not to suggest that it would be any easier to get something like it made in the current Japanese market, but it is at least a proven formula there.

 

Some people might read this as "Project Eternity should be like Persona 4." That's not true of this post or the previous one. I want both games to do what is uniquely their thing as well as they can do it. I'm suggesting Persona 4 as a possible source of inspiration, not something to copy. I am as against homogenization as anyone here.

 

What I'm talking about in these posts are the benefits of an approach to design that is often criticized as "counterintuitive" and "backward" - and not always without cause, to be sure. But there's a focus on rewarding patience and creating an atmosphere in many Japanese games that many Western developers either forget entirely or attempt to monetize, and my point is that underestimating the player's attention span - and forgetting that there is occasionaly value in overestimating it - can be a mistake.

[JFSOCC]

Make a list of responses per locale, or a few lists, and have npc's cycle through them. (randomly)

I do like the havemet boolean idea. And if you want the same response for true and false, you can set that too.

though I'd rather see it a numeric than a boolean, because that allows for a broader range of options.

Then there is the question of time passing, if I click an NPC 10 times in a row, he shouldn't all of a sudden be familiar with me, so perhaps it should be saved by area load, or by day, I suppose.

 

I guess it falls in the categorty of reactivity, it most certainly has to do with immersion.

 

As for the poisoning the well argument, yes, if MOST NPC's are bitching, no doubt that's going to be true, I guess we'll have to pay attention to that and make sure not all NPC's sound like theyhate your guts. (unless they do)

[Tuckey]

I would like project eternity to be a little simulationist with there npcs. Schedules, routines and the like; random conversations can then happen according to a variety of criteria;

 

Is it raining? = comment about the weather

Are they running an errand? = perhaps you could help

Is the npc closing up there store for the night? = no mood for conversation

Are they drinking at the pub? = shares a rumour with you.

 

In that way each npc has something unique to say depending on when/what circumstance you talk to them. Then you can be writing for all flavour npcs rather than one at a time. By flavour I mean the npcs that are populating a city to make it seem big.