Non-romance dynamics in games

[alanschu]

 

FWIW I hope nobody thought I was playing some sort of asshat "I have kids therefore I am in some way morally and / or experientially superior" bollocks.

 

Because I know that is BS.

 

I'm not sure it makes me superior to be a parent, but I do get emotional over a ton of stuff that never would have made me bat an eye before kids.  So in that respect, a father/daughter hook is going to have more of an emotional impact on me now than it did 10 years ago.  

 

Although that really just happens in books, movies, and TV.  I haven't had any real touching moments in a video game.  But I haven't played most of these example games. 

 

 

What was your thoughts on The Walking Dead?

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

So, half the adventure games I've played. From Monkey Island to Deponia.

 

I didn't mean it that way. The romance is second fiddle to whatever passes for the main storyline in those games. And its mostly juvenile. 

 

I meant a game where the theme is love and relationships between mature (or maybe not so mature) individuals - the adventuring elements of the story are secondary to it, not the other way around.

 

Have you played Tales of Monkey Island?

 

 

You don't think ToMI is juvenile? (in an entertaining way though)

 

I'm talking about something contemporary leaning more towards "real life"drama than comedy.

 

Its not about a guy trying to win the affection of a woman, its about relationships in a broader sense. If you've watched a Wong Kar-Wai film, something like that... only turned into a game.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[alanschu]

I think, for me, games still have a sense of emotional disconnect most of the time simply because of the format. It's not the same as sitting on a couch all relaxed and staring at a TV (or reading a book), where you can be drawn, sometimes almost unwillingly, into the emotional pathos of a story because you're entirely an observer and can focus fully on such.

 

Versus a game, where *you* have to pause to make decisions, you have to click on the environment/people to make things go, etc. It just takes a lot more effort/work for a game to get us to fully fall into an empathic emotional state because while playing a game, our brain is also heavily engaged in the logistics of task-orientation. Thus the simpler sight/sound stimulation routes (boo-scare! sexy! gore! beautiful landscape!) tend to be more consistently effective at producing a reaction.

 

Some adventure type games do better at it tho.

 

I find this interesting because the fact that I'm the one driving the action increases my emotional investment a lot.

[Hurlshort]

Guybrush and Governor Marley are a swashbuckling Romeo and Juliet.

 

With less of the death at the end.  

 

 

Also if you are getting a heart tattooed on your chest, it should be located in the anatomically correct spot.

[Drowsy Emperor]

To get emotionally invested in a game requires it to be directed at the pace of a good film or be told like a good book. That rarely happens. 

 

Most games tend to rely on negative emotions far too much to be emotionally engaging. Hate, vengeance, power fantasies. Too shallow to work most of the time.

 

This is I remember games like Torment, Shadow of the Colossus, Homeworld etc. more fondly than others. Because they weren't negative power fantasies and because they tried actively to provoke an emotional response with beauty of sorts: whether it be writing, graphics, music or a combination of all.

[Tale]

I'm talking about something contemporary leaning more towards "real life"drama than comedy.

An adventure game about relationship drama.

 

I never really got into Facade.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It goes without saying that it would take a lot of tact to pull off to be meaningful and not dominate the actual "fun" part of the game.

[alanschu]

Guybrush and Governor Marley are a swashbuckling Romeo and Juliet.

 

With less of the death at the end.  

 

 

Also if you are getting a heart tattooed on your chest, it should be located in the anatomically correct spot.

 

To be honest, while I noticed the tattoos I didn't really give them much of a second thought until you (and others) decided to focus so incessantly on them.

 

At some point, in my opinion, the problem becomes less and less hers.  My question for you is "Why do you care?" followed by "Why does someone doing something like this bother you?" when it's effectively a stranger and someone that you have literally no obligation to do anything towards.

 

What you are doing, although I don't suspect with any sort of overtly malevolent intent, is shifted the conversation away from what the author is saying and focusing more on what the author looks like.  To draw an analogue, and I understand it's a bit different because tattoos are voluntary, but in my eyes it's not that far removed from focusing more on the colour of someone's skin than is really necessary.

 

 

You find her decision to place tattoos on her a decision that makes her less attractive.  Which is fine.  They are probably at a point of having enough that I consider them less appealing as well.  We're allowed to feel people are or are not attractive.  What that has to do, however, with her topic is something that is somewhat lost on me.  Coupling it with "Also I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15 because that might cause her to go get terrible tattoos that distract from her natural beauty" then comes across as something exceptionally antagonistic and downright disrespectful.

 

If getting tattoos helps her deal with the loss of a parent in a reasonably healthy way (from a mental health standpoint).

 

I lost my brother when I was 13, and effectively didn't really get over it until I was 20.  If getting some tattoos had helped in some way, I'd be pissed at my parents for judging me for doing so.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It's more unique to not have tattoos, at this point.

I've been wondering why that is honestly.

 

It used to be that tattoos were (and still are among the older generations) associated with lowlifes (sailors, army tattoos, criminals, some among the lower classes.). Now everyone wants to be a tribal and we're seemingly only a step away from the bone in the nose becoming a fashion item.

 

I'm 26 and I'd never get a tattoo. Most are so ugly anyway. I wonder what goes through most people's heads when they go to do them.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

(Or it's because I'm a straight-laced **** with a thing for bad girls)

 

 

So that why you're still single? 

[LadyCrimson]

I don't find lots of large or all-encompassing tattoos personally attractive, but if someone wants to have them, it's their body/choice. Doesn't affect me at all. I also don't find over-stylized hair (on men or women), make-up, bizarre piercings, or certain clothing fashions personally attractive, but as they say ... who cares what I think.

 

I often feel a lot of personal decoration is largely about making statements, whether private/personal, social/cultural, psychological or billboard, etc. Perhaps to some, tattoos are a sign of larger commitment ... unlike peace sign earrings or a pink ribbon button, you can't take them off (well, not easily anyway).

[Hurlshort]

Alanschu, I think you are taking my glib comments on tattoos a bit seriously.  When I say she should have her heart tattoo placed in the anatomically correct spot, that is really just me being silly.  But that thing is huge, so when you tell me you didn't even notice it, I have a hard time believing that.  She also has full sleeves showing in the video, they are hard to miss.

 

It isn't like skin color, getting tattoos are a choice and there is an element of attention seeking in them.  You are spending money to have an artist use your skin as a canvass, I don't see why you would do that and not expect people to notice them.  I'm not even against tattoos, I think there are some very well done ones.

 

This girl is also a public figure, she has a blog and she is putting it out there for people to see and hear her thoughts.  I see that as making her fair game for criticism.  If she was wearing white after labor day I'd point that out too.  

 

Back on topic a bit, she had mentioned that her father passed away at a young age and that played into the topic of the father daughter relationship.  I used that to make a jab about her tattoos.  It wasn't a nice comment, and it isn't one I would ever say to her face or anything like that.  So I guess I would take that one back, but I'm still going to hope like crazy my own daughter doesn't go nuts with tattoos

 

edit:  I didn't even get started on the ear gauges!

Edited July 12, 2013 by Hurlshot

[ShadySands]

I have a couple tattoos and I love a little ink on women but big chest tattoos are a no no

 

Personally, I can understand getting a tattoo if you lose a loved one because my mom died when I was in my first year of college and I wanted to get a tattoo of something special or unique to remember her by. But here I am 12 years later I still never got that one done because I could never think of anything that I thought did her justice.

 

I also agree with Hurlshot that her choosing to be a public figure makes her fair game

[Hurlshort]

So after this whole thread I figured I'd look up who this blogger is 

 

Let me just say there are now a few more reasons that I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15.  

[ShadySands]

I'm guessing she did porn or something then...

[licketysplit]

Yeah, video games are 'tapping' into the father/daughter aspect just like anime is..*cough*

 

Not that it's invalid, just predictable. The doe-eyed chick from Last of Us might as well be a cyborg from Gun Slinger Girl. Games tend to be pretty late to the originality party, so it's no surprise to see them copying other mediums.

[BruceVC]

 

Guybrush and Governor Marley are a swashbuckling Romeo and Juliet.

 

With less of the death at the end.  

 

 

Also if you are getting a heart tattooed on your chest, it should be located in the anatomically correct spot.

 

To be honest, while I noticed the tattoos I didn't really give them much of a second thought until you (and others) decided to focus so incessantly on them.

 

At some point, in my opinion, the problem becomes less and less hers.  My question for you is "Why do you care?" followed by "Why does someone doing something like this bother you?" when it's effectively a stranger and someone that you have literally no obligation to do anything towards.

 

What you are doing, although I don't suspect with any sort of overtly malevolent intent, is shifted the conversation away from what the author is saying and focusing more on what the author looks like.  To draw an analogue, and I understand it's a bit different because tattoos are voluntary, but in my eyes it's not that far removed from focusing more on the colour of someone's skin than is really necessary.

 

 

You find her decision to place tattoos on her a decision that makes her less attractive.  Which is fine.  They are probably at a point of having enough that I consider them less appealing as well.  We're allowed to feel people are or are not attractive.  What that has to do, however, with her topic is something that is somewhat lost on me.  Coupling it with "Also I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15 because that might cause her to go get terrible tattoos that distract from her natural beauty" then comes across as something exceptionally antagonistic and downright disrespectful.

 

If getting tattoos helps her deal with the loss of a parent in a reasonably healthy way (from a mental health standpoint).

 

I lost my brother when I was 13, and effectively didn't really get over it until I was 20.  If getting some tattoos had helped in some way, I'd be pissed at my parents for judging me for doing so.

 

 

 

Alanschu, I think you are taking my glib comments on tattoos a bit seriously.  When I say she should have her heart tattoo placed in the anatomically correct spot, that is really just me being silly.  But that thing is huge, so when you tell me you didn't even notice it, I have a hard time believing that.  She also has full sleeves showing in the video, they are hard to miss.

 

It isn't like skin color, getting tattoos are a choice and there is an element of attention seeking in them.  You are spending money to have an artist use your skin as a canvass, I don't see why you would do that and not expect people to notice them.  I'm not even against tattoos, I think there are some very well done ones.

 

This girl is also a public figure, she has a blog and she is putting it out there for people to see and hear her thoughts.  I see that as making her fair game for criticism.  If she was wearing white after labor day I'd point that out too.  

 

Back on topic a bit, she had mentioned that her father passed away at a young age and that played into the topic of the father daughter relationship.  I used that to make a jab about her tattoos.  It wasn't a nice comment, and it isn't one I would ever say to her face or anything like that.  So I guess I would take that one back, but I'm still going to hope like crazy my own daughter doesn't go nuts with tattoos

 

edit:  I didn't even get started on the ear gauges!

 

I agree with Hurlshot on this one but I am going to be even more critical. Firstly I don't dislike this lady( what is her name?) but let me comment on the perception that her tattoos create in this context

• We are not being petulant in our judging of her because she has put herself on the Internet for public scrutiny and obviously doesn't think her tattoos are an issue as he could easily hide them if she was concerned about them. Therefore if you ask for people to comment on what you say they are naturally going to also base that opinion on how you conduct yourself and what image you project. Its hard to separate the person from the message in most cases
• There are dozens of gaming bloggers, websites and people trying to offer an alternative opinion on games and break into the gaming discussion market. Its very competitive and I imagine doesn't offer much financial incentive until you are really well know. Like Jim Sterling ( who annoys me but he does have his fans). What is lacking is the type of reviews and opinions that we see on Forbes and Gamasutra around gaming. These target an older segment of gaming society but generally with more spending power. In other words business people  who like to game get there updates from these websites. Now I would think the objective of gaming journalist is to progress in there careers and eventually get to work for websites like this?
• This lady is very good looking and is intelligent. She also wants to get opinions on the topic. She raised some interesting questions but here is the problem. She is only going to be able to work for certain companies because those tattoos really create an image of her that would be unacceptable for most corporations. I can't comment on the work conditions of Bioware but I know very few companies that would allow customer facing staff to look like that. Business people who want to discuss gaming don't want to see that type of person representing there hobbies. Now imagine if she looked like she did, asked though provoking questions but didn't have the tattoos. It would be a winning formula
• Now you can easily say " I am over analysing this whole thing, she doesn't care about representing companies that cater for business men or even earning decent money. She is doing something she enjoys and follows her own path irrespective of what people like me think". That may be well and true but someday she would more  than likely have to answer certain questions about her career progression and at the moment she is actually doing herself a disservice for future prospects. We are going through tough economic times, people are unemployed or work in jobs where they are not earning what they should be earning and companies can and will fire as they see fit. Why would you not do everything in your power to ensure that you are as marketable as possible?
• Finally I have no issues with tattoos as I feel they are a personal choice and at times they could represent something sentimental for a person but in the case of this lady they are really overdone and unfortunately don't create an image of her that as time goes on she would really want? Of course I may be wrong but this is just my perception of her

[Drowsy Emperor]

I'm guessing she did porn or something then...

 

Yep, porn actress. Her filmography is as long as my forearm.

 

Sad, really.

[Walsingham]

I wondered how long that would take to come up. 

 

Gentlemen, it's just a TEENSY WEENSY TINY bit hypocritical for us to have a problem with people who've been in porn.

 

I find tats interesting. But suggest they might need their own WoT thread.

 

So, hopefully that's that sorted.

 

~

 

On topic, I was thinking about the issue of father/daughter. Maybe it's to do with the way we project into the primary character. The one we play. Versus a secondary character who we react to emotionally.

 

I was talking to a colleague yesterday about Fallout 3 versus New Vegas. he hasn't played New Vegas yet, and asked about the difference. I said that in my opinion the big difference was Vegas feels like you are in charge of your own destiny and can be a badass. FO3 just feels like a scramble. Vegas to me is much more fun to play, but does lack a lot of the melancholy in FO3.

 

My point here is that we identify not with the father towards the daughter, but with BOTH the father and the daughter. We aspire to the father role of being calm and heroic. We get our emotional kick of fear and risk by the peril of the daughter. Separating and formalising the two roles helps us appreciate each one in isolation.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Walsingham

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Gentlemen, it's just a TEENSY WEENSY TINY bit hypocritical for us to have a problem with people who've been in porn.

 

 

QFT.

[BruceVC]

 

I'm guessing she did porn or something then...

 

Yep, porn actress. Her filmography is as long as my forearm.

 

Sad, really.

 

 

Okay so she was in the Porn industry, that's not a bad thing in my opinion. In fact now I would now say  her tattoo's make more sense. I like to watch the odd adult entertainment. Do you know her stage name ?

[BruceVC]

I feel I need to update my previous comment, this lady isn't someone who decided to make her first career choice in the gaming industry. She is an ex-porn star who decided to change her career. My previous more critical post should be ignored. I respect her decision and wish her good luck as she will have more than enough criticism from people just from her past. I admire people who want to change there lives if they feel there jobs aren't fulfilling, I actually feel guilty about my previous view on her

Edited July 13, 2013 by BruceVC

[Walsingham]

So what emotional bondings do you like in-game?

 

I was trying to think of other alternatives. Fallout New Vegas uses the revenge model with Rose. I liked that one. It established that she cared about people she travelled with, and then put you in a position to back her up.

[Monte Carlo]

I'm sad when my Vet 3 Panzer IV goes down to mines.

[Walsingham]

I'm sad when my Vet 3 Panzer IV goes down to mines.

 

ROFL.

 

No truer love exists than a man for his leveled units.