LOL, Durability has been removed

[Infinitron]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/page-18?do=findComment&comment=1348405

 

 

A few points of clarification:

 

* "Crafting" is one skill, but the crafting system uses multiple skills.  I.e., the crafting system does not rely on the existence of the Crafting skill.

* Other than reaching the edge of a map to access the world map, there is no fast-travel in PE.  That said, we will likely avoid the IWD-style 5-level dungeons without semi-regular shortcuts back to the surface (N.B.: this does not mean Skyrim-style loops).

* Most items do take up space in personal inventories!  The party Stash is unlimited, but the Pack (made of personal inventories) is not.  Crafting items (and quest items) always go into (and come out of) the Stash.  We are doing this specifically to address common complaints about crafting items cluttering the inventory.  Since crafting is typically done at camps or other non-combat locations, allowing the items to come out of the Stash doesn't seem to create any problems.

 

As I posted on SA, Crafting (the skill) and its associated subsystems (like durability) were the elements I felt least confident about in our skill system.  I strongly believe that choices within an array should give the player reasonably balanced benefits.  Because certain fundamental skills (like Stealth) can clearly benefit from multiple party members taking them and can contribute to party effectiveness in combat, I believe that other skills should do the same in their own way -- enough to make all of them appealing choices on multiple party members.  This also has the benefit of making the uses of skills much higher-frequency than the individual uses that depend on designer content (e.g. unlocking doors or gaining a dialogue/quest option).

 

As an example, Medicine in its various Fallout forms contributes to the efficacy of stimpaks.  There are many other places were Medicine can be used in quests and dialogue, but it has high-frequency use with stimpaks (in or between combats).  It's a benefit that can apply to any character who has the skill, even if a character with a higher rating in a party may be "the guy" to perform the high-difficulty actions.

 

With all of the skills other than Crafting (specifically), those high-frequency benefits/uses were easy to come by.  Crafting presented some difficulties and, as I wrote previously, I was concerned about the lack of systemic drains in the economy.  Many people have mentioned a lot of potential uses for wealth.  Most of them are great ideas and ones that we plan to use, but the vast majority of them are not systemic, rather content-dependent or scripted instances (e.g. bribes).  However, it is clear from discussions here and elsewhere that the long-term balance of the economy is not a concern for most players who voiced their opinions -- and almost certainly not in the endgame.

 

Based on discussions on the forums and conversations I had with people on the team, we will be doing the following:

 

* Removing durability as a mechanic on items.

* Removing the Crafting skill (specifically).  The crafting system and its associated mechanics will remain, as-is.

 

Ultimately, solving skill imbalance and endgame wealth abundance problems is not worth what players perceive as uninteresting and unenjoyable gameplay.  I can still solve the skill imbalance problems by removing the problem skill.  As for endgame wealth abundance, we will continue to create places for you to use wealth in the economy: unique items, the stronghold, optional quest/dialogue gates, etc.  Ultimately, if those options go unused, I'll have to trust that the majority of players won't be significantly troubled by an excess of wealth in the late game.

 

Thanks for all of your feedback.

 

 

[C2B]

It's not. The skill has been removed. Crafting system is still in.

 

(Or in other words. Thread title is confusing)

Edited July 5, 2013 by C2B

[Sensuki]

That's what he means.

[Sacred_Path]

I ain't even mad.

[C2B]

That's what he means.

 

Yeah, I get that. I meant the thread title gives the wrong impression.

 

Edit: And it's done.

Edited July 5, 2013 by C2B

[Ieo]

I'm confused by the posts above mine, but yes--changes due to feedback. 

 

I wouldn't have minded durability if it was tied to difficulty levels and used as real resource management and NOT related to crafting, but this is fine with me too. Since the IE games didn't have durability, I doubt the majority of players will miss it.

 

We can now go back to your regularly scheduled discussion about the merits of the crafting system proper without that other thing to sully conversation.

[Cultist]

As long as durability is no longer there, I can even live with Dragon Age Origins or Skyrim crafting. in other words:

[Zed]

I'm glad.

[teknoman2]

not this though...

You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community.

why cant i link a jpg image?

EDIT solved

Edited July 5, 2013 by teknoman2

[SunBroSolaire]

Great, another victory for design by committee.

 

Can't wait to play Project Eternity, the upcoming game from legendary game designers Something Awful, RPG Codex, and Obsidian Forums.

[Rostere]

Why the "LOL"? Is this funny in some way?

[C2B]

Great, another victory for design by committee.

 

Can't wait to play Project Eternity, the upcoming game from legendary game designers Something Awful, RPG Codex, and Obsidian Forums.

 

?

 

That's hopefully meant as a joke. There's no design by comittee here. Providing helpful critisism and a sample size, yes.

 

(Which is IMO, how dev-audience communication should be)

 

Also by Sawyer

 

 

There are an enormous number of features/systems that people have complained about that I have not changed because I believed (and still believe) the game would ultimately be more enjoyable as-designed.  I always listen to/read what people have to say, but I only rarely make changes based on what they say.  I don't think anyone would benefit from me ignoring all of the points that people put forward.

 

Edited July 5, 2013 by C2B

[Sensuki]

It's definitely not design by committee. They had this secondary fallback option pre-planned, posting an update on Crafting was probably to gauge whether we would accept the shortfalls of the Crafting skill.

[Tale]

That seems fair. So the main reasons they were doing durability is to give the crafting skills a party-wide use so you don't dump it on only one character and as a sink in the economy.

 

I'd like to think they can still handle the economy without it. Which leaves it existing to do little more than justify a skill. Removing the skill, but not associated functionality of crafting, seems to be the more elegant solution to that little problem. That's probably how I'd prefer it. I haven't played too many RPGs where having crafting be a skill sink actually improved things.

 

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

[SunBroSolaire]

Sample size? More than half of those who voted in Sensuki's poll said durability belonged in PE. The load minority got it removed.

[Sensuki]

There's my poll, forum posts on here and there's other forums as well. Making the UI smaller was instigated by roughly 20-30% of a poll + vocal minority.

[Infinitron]

Why the "LOL"? Is this funny in some way?

 

Yes, because it happened so quickly. Durability didn't last three days.

[SunBroSolaire]

There's my poll, forum posts on here and there's other forums as well. Making the UI smaller was instigated by roughly 20-30% of a poll + vocal minority.

Yep.

[IndiraLightfoot]

No need for a "LOL"! This is great news and a sound and well-founded decision. I'm glad they got that out of the way fast. In that way, they can get on with all the other pending issues.

[JFSOCC]

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

I do, but I would have made crafting a very different animal altogether.

I'm ok with the current solution.

[SunBroSolaire]

 

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

I do, but I would have made crafting a very different animal altogether.

I'm ok with the current solution.

 

I do as well. If it isn't a skill, then what? All characters and parties are equally capable of Crafting/Alchemy/Cooking? There's no progression? Why even have Crafting in the game then? Might as well just find new items instead of new item recipes.

 

[Infinitron]

 

 

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

I do, but I would have made crafting a very different animal altogether.

I'm ok with the current solution.

 

I do as well. If it isn't a skill, then what? All characters and parties are equally capable of Crafting/Alchemy/Cooking? There's no progression? Why even have Crafting in the game then? Might as well just find new items instead of new item recipes.

 

 

 

Crafting may involve other skills, skills that aren't named "Crafting".

 

Besides, who says there needs to be progression? BG2 crafting wasn't fun?

[centurionofprix]

Lovely. It's interesting how the design process on PE has been checked by feedback, as opposed to less transparent traditional development. Each of the changes have, I think, been for the better. (not to overstate the weight of fan feedback, especially as it wasn't a resolute choice to include the durability system in the first place, but this change in particular was a very good thing)

Edited July 5, 2013 by centurionofprix

[C2B]

Sample size? More than half of those who voted in Sensuki's poll said durability belonged in PE. The load minority got it removed.

And? Apart from that still being a lot, we're still representing how well its recieved. And it wasn't.

 

 

Also, that's just part of what we as fans are. An additional argument, not the point I was making. (Not design by committee)

Edited July 5, 2013 by C2B

[Hormalakh]

Stop trolling Infinitron. We all know you're trying to hype up the easily-hype-able. Tsk tsk. Or tut tut, if you prefer. I don't know which one you use in Israel.