Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[Greensleeve]

I'd like to see some push daggers in PE. I carry one on my belt as every day carry knife and I love it. Its extremely concealable, quick, agile and more powerful than a knife due to the natural position in your hand. Its like boxing just with a dagger in your fist. 

 

The one I carry: 

 

-snip-

 

Possible medieval version:

 

-snip-

 

Honestly, that doesn't look terribly comfortable to do something like boxing with. It looks as though it'll slip from one's grip very easily when actually used to punch with, due to the lack of any type of stabilising parts. It just looks... ungainly. Clumsy. I feel it would be more appropriate to include katar and pata as weapon types in PE instead of a push dagger, which looks more appropriate for a one-off slicing sneak attack during unarmed combat than anything else. 

[Woldan]

Honestly, that doesn't look terribly comfortable to do something like boxing with. It looks as though it'll slip from one's grip very easily when actually used to punch with, due to the lack of any type of stabilising parts.

The stabilizing part is your grip strength and the grip design, its squared and not like a tube. I just took my coldsteel push dagger in my hand and balanced a 7kg weight on the tip, it did not twist in my hand. I can hold it just as firmly as a knife. Your doubts are unjustified.

 

And you can stab much harder and more accurately with it because its like an extension of your forearm bones, it does not feel like an independent object in your hand.

 

You really have to take one in your hand before judging about its usefulness and ergonomics.

Watch this, its interesting: 

 

Edited January 29, 2014 by Woldan

[Jarmo]

I carry one on my belt as every day carry knife and I love it. 

 

... are you an assassin or just a crazy person?

[JFSOCC]

"you can hear the ribs breaking"

There are no ribs in that carcass...

[Sir Lawrence Gentleshark]

Heh. Carrying such weapon is useless, if you are not intending to use it. Do you really ready to stab another human with such thing several times?

[Greensleeve]

Honestly, 7kg is nothing compared to the force of a punch. Given the training and strength of the people who would use these in combat, the force exerted on the grip would probably be in a different order of magnitude, I'd wager. For actual combat, a pata or katar would just be so much more useful due to the stabilising elements of the full gauntlet-like grip. 

 

Here's a pretty pata for good measure. 

 

[Woldan]

... are you an assassin or just a crazy person?

A friend was beaten into a coma outside a bar and a relative and friend was attacked by a group of 5 for no reason at all.

I'm a person who learns of the mistakes others and takes precautions.

the force exerted on the grip would probably be in a different order of magnitude, I'd wager.

But not lateral forces, forces down the tip because its mainly a stabbing weapon. The main advantage is you can stab with as much force as you can bench press weight with one arm. When stabbing you're not depending on the friction of your palm, the dagger is directly supported by bones. 

I can only repeat it, get some first hand experience with the weapon before you judge its usefulness based on theories. I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

"you can hear the ribs breaking"

There are no ribs in that carcass...

There are.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Woldan

[Jobby]

Duel wielding patas would be awesome!

And as a point of note, you seem like a reasonable person but carrying a knife is a poor life choice imo, you can get jailed for up to 3 years for it over here (rightly so) and that fat American dude raving about how it's a good choice for teenagers ****ing disgusts me /preach over.

[Woldan]

And as a point of note, you seem like a reasonable person but carrying a knife is a poor life choice imo, you can get jailed for up to 3 years for it over here (rightly so) and that fat American dude raving about how it's a good choice for teenagers ****ing disgusts me /preach over.

 

I cannot get locked up for it because its not against the law to carry knives where I live. You always have to check your local laws before buying and carrying knives. Yeah, its probably all awesome in your country but let me tell you this: if carrying knives is against the law, do you think that some one who wants to stab you (which is against the law!) cares about the law? Nope. You'll be the defenseless guy who gets stabbed thank to your laws. 

Newsflash: if criminals cared about about laws nobody would get hurt.  

 

And the dagger recommendations for teenagers - teenagers are not allowed to defend themselves? Only adults? I know if I had a daughter I'd surely would recommend her to carry at least a pocket knife because there are too many rapes on this planets happening each day. 

Edited January 29, 2014 by Woldan

[Jarmo]

Nope. You'll be the defenseless guy who gets stabbed thank to your laws. 

Newsflash: if criminals cared about about laws nobody would get hurt.  

 

Then maybe you'd better get yourself a concealed firearm to keep ahead in the arms race towards general well being and safety.

[Tsuga C]

Duel wielding patas would be awesome!

 

And as a point of note, you seem like a reasonable person but carrying a knife is a poor life choice imo, you can get jailed for up to 3 years for it over here (rightly so) and that fat American dude raving about how it's a good choice for teenagers ****ing disgusts me /preach over.

 

And when I obtained my Concealed Pistol License the police officer running the certification course recommended a similar knife for exactly the reasons stated by Woldan.  Some of us recognize that the world can be a dangerous place and are proactive when it comes to self-defense...and others are willing victims.  Preach as you please in the Off Topic forums, but keep your self-righteous aichmophobia out of a thread on weaponry.

[Woldan]

Then maybe you'd better get yourself a concealed firearm to keep ahead in the arms race towards general well being and safety.

Equality in force between an attacker and the potential victim is indeed a huge step towards the well being and safety of society. Criminals are looking for easy targets. If there is a law against carrying weapons - well, thats heaven for those who don't care about the laws and hell for those who care about it.

[Jarmo]

Well couldn't really disagree much more with Woldan and Tsuga, but right, offtopic.

And I'm not continuing in offtopic section either, everything's been said before.

 

So how about them flails?

 

 

Two handed variants or one handed?

 

Never my favorite smashers, but they do have a certain quality...

[Jobby]

So every drunken argument can become a stabbing/gunfight? Yeah sounds like a great way to live, clearly it's a cultural thing so we'll leave it at that, I did suffix my statement with (imo) no need to get all NRA on me.

[Tsuga C]

So how about them flails?

Flails are tops in my book for making the statement that you care only for the damage you're inflicting upon your enemy and care not a whit about what they're trying to do to you. Even beyond a greataxe, the flail has a certain savage mystique to it. Swords, maces, and axes are all to a greater or lesser degree more suitable for parrying, fighting defensively, and may be held at the ready for quite some time. Flails rely on constant movement to be effective. In RPG terms, you'd better be a Str./Con.(endurance) focused individual if you're going to specialize in flails.

 

Edit: I've been a member of the NRA since 1991, so "getting all NRA" is who I am and what I do.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Tsuga C

[Woldan]

Just stumbled across some original drawings of fighting techniques, wrestling moves and finishing blows from Hans Talhoffers fencing book: http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/Talhoffer.php

 

 

 

[Jobby]

Each to their own

Re. push blades/patas I thought these Kataras looked pretty cool

 

 

 

 

Could be a really cool weapon for a dual wielding rogue I think.

[Greensleeve]

Those are some very nice katars. Particularly the first one. 

[Karranthain]

I think we'll see flails in the game - I remember that they've been featured in one of the earlier updates.

 

As Jarmo mentioned - they're particularly vicious weapons - and quite easily fashioned from regular farming implements. Hussites used those to great effect against the well-armoured crusaders :

 

[quest1on]

 

 

I don't see what this image have to do with Hussites, nonetheless, more about "punch-stabing" weapons, there's lantern shield of European origin

[Elerond]

[Karranthain]

I don't see what this image have to do with Hussites, nonetheless, more about "punch-stabing" weapons, there's lantern shield of European origin

 

Just a linking problem, here it is:

 

 

And some more:

 

 

And, as a bonus, some interesting morningstar-ish polearm (no idea what's it called):

 

[Elerond]

That morning star spike is called holy water sprinklers or sprinckyls, it was used by English army in 16th century, made by specialist smiths.

Wikipedia says that it name comes from its resemblance to the aspergillum used in the Catholic Mass. 

 

Quote from wikipedia

 

Another weapon, the holy water sprinkler (from its resemblance to the aspergillum used in the Catholic Mass) was a morning star used by the English army in the sixteenth century and made in series by professional smiths. One such weapon can be found in the Royal Armouries and has an all-steel head with six flanges forming three spikes each, reminiscent of a mace but with a short thick spike of square cross section extending from the top. The wooden shaft is reinforced with four langets and the overall length of the weapon is 74.5 inches (189.2 cm)

Edited February 1, 2014 by Elerond

[Candid]

I'm really not a big fan of the examples being offered up here... The saracen armour, the platemail. I find it really boring to look at.

 

I'm sure that this is an argument that is already lost with regards to what has already been developed, so I won't get into it too deeply. Just to say that I hope the references taken from sources like these are light, and leave plenty of room for armour features that are not necessarily practical, but are visually interesting.

 

For example, replace the white leather corset with a black cuirass (steel or leather), and this is probably the best suit of half-plate I've ever seen hands down, across all games and illustrations.

 

 

This is the kind of thing I hope there's some room for. And if not, then I hope the modding scene is robust!

 

Aaaand that's all from the voice of dissent. I don't mean to start a fight, I just have different tastes and I'm beginning to mourn not coming here to participate with my views sooner. Not that one guy would have made a difference.

[Merlkir]

Sorry, it's horrid. The armour is ridiculously thick in some places and beyond-stylized thin in others. It doesn't cover the wearer well, there are massive gaps and the articulation is all made up. Also, it has bloody spikes on it.

One of the cases where the Japanese (I assume) don't get European armour right at all.