Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[PrimeJunta]

Arguments like this are usually dismissed as variants of the "it's just a game", because games are supposed to take stances and draw parallels to real world issues. 

But if we're putting emphasis on the experience of being "something", literally the only thing Earthly black people and Vailians share is the colour of their skin. Is there colour based racism in Eternity? We don't really know. (we know there's been specieism against the Orlans, iirc) Has there been a history of black slaves in Eternity? We don't know. (iirc)

True, but unfortunately there is skin-color based racism here. That means that skin color in a game will inevitably be seen through that prism. Inevitably. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it wasn't so.

 

As much as we can point to Moorish Spain or Venice as pools of inspiration, there isn't much cultural or situational overlap between the Vailians and contemporary black Americans.

 

Heck, if anything, I would expect them to relate to the Orlans more, or the Aumaua. (isn't that what Dragon Age tried to do? the slave elves and stuff?) 

 

I would have to think about this, but somehow the idea that skin colour alone should qualify a group of people to judge the portrayal of fictional people with the same skin colour, sounds a bit racist itself. Like...let's forget all the other circumstances that led to this group being what it is and have their skin be their defining trait.

That's not quite what I meant though. All I really had in mind is, a black person is most qualified to speak on how she feels about Vailians being black.  Her experience of everyday racism, stereotypes, and whatnot will certainly factor into that. She's bound to be more sensitive to recognizing negative stereotypes about blacks, and would be more likely to pick up on those if they show up in the way Vailians are portrayed. If it turned out, for example, that a main Vailian NPC was a proxenete who did some drug trade on the side, she'd be more likely to connect that to the pimp/gangsta racist stereotype, especially with the colorful and showy clothes the Vailians wear. And I think she'd be justified in that.

 

Point being, I don't believe it's possible to completely disentangle fiction from real-world baggage, and lived experience helps recognize that baggage. 

 

(and I think racism is pretty much objective and recognizable by anyone, I guess we'll have to differ on that.)

Obvious and blatant racism certainly is. Racism based on unspoken and often unconscious biases is a lot harder to recognize. It's something that manifests as an accumulating mass of things that in isolation would be utterly trivial. Most of the time it's not even possible to consciously remember each and every one of those little things; together, they just add up to a racist undercurrent.

 

I think this is one reason discussions about race often go off the rails actually. Someone attempting to explain why she feels something is racist often comes off as petty and thin-skinned because all she can do is point at a few of those little things, which easily gets a reaction like "what, you got upset because he asked if you like fried chicken?"

 

Anecdote. I once got accused of racism for not inviting an applicant to a job interview. He was from Kenya.

 

Thing is, he had sent dozens, perhaps hundreds of job applications to companies, and gotten nothing but refusals, while seeing similarly-qualified ethnic Finns get hired. It's likely impossible for him to prove that any particular case of not getting invited was due to his nationality or skin color. However statistically it's pretty damn certain that many of the refusals were.

 

Why am I so sure? Because his qualifications were fine. They weren't a really good fit for the specific position we were hiring for at the time (which is why I passed), but they were more than adequate for a broad range of other positions. If racism wasn't an issue, he should have gotten invited to interviews, oh, say, at least a third of the time, and should not have had much trouble finding a job.

[lolaldanee]

Moving right along...

 

Here's a very interesting piece, highlighting sallets (very intimidating and cool looking helmets), various polearms (pollaxes, spears, halberds and a voulge) as well as some nice gambesons, worn over the armour.

 

i always wonder how they can see anything with those helmets

[Karranthain]

i always wonder how they can see anything with those helmets

 

Probably not much at all, but the protection it offers makes up for it.

[PrimeJunta]

If you're in Northern Europe, there's a very small museum in a tower in the Tallinn city wall where you can try one on. There are other (very high-quality) replica weapons and armor you can play with too, and a catapult up top. It's a big hit with the kids. The parents perhaps not so much, as there's a real risk of bloodshed with the little tykes running around with light maces and daggers and such.

[Tsuga C]

 

i always wonder how they can see anything with those helmets

 

Probably not much at all, but the protection it offers makes up for it.

 

It's not so bad once you get used to it. Take some cardboard, a set of scissors, tape, and you can easily simulate looking through a sallet or any other type of visor if you place the cardboard over the face of a hockey helmet. I did that when I was in elementary school. Being used to the helmet already, the transition wasn't difficult.

[Karranthain]

 

 

i always wonder how they can see anything with those helmets

 

Probably not much at all, but the protection it offers makes up for it.

 

It's not so bad once you get used to it. Take some cardboard, a set of scissors, tape, and you can easily simulate looking through a sallet or any other type of visor if you place the cardboard over the face of a hockey helmet. I did that when I was in elementary school. Being used to the helmet already, the transition wasn't difficult.

 

 

I'm actually writing all my posts while wearing that.

 

Fair point - it probably isn't so bad with enough practice. And it does make you look intimidating, so well worth it! I'll be making a longer post about helmets later; there's plenty of very interesting designs our there, which sadly aren't represented often enough!

[Nonek]

Intimidation bonus for a worn helmet? The echoing voice, the lack of identity etcetera.

[lolaldanee]

oh my god, it is wearing a helmet that makes it impossible to see me, but still it attacks me, and i can't see it's face, surely it must be a terrible monster, i better run away

[Darkodin]

Here's hoping we see some spears and polearms like these in the game. I especially like the 8th weapon on the top pic and the 1st / 8th on the bottom. I wonder how the numbers for weapons in each category are going to break down once the game goes live? I'd assume we will have a pretty large selection of weapons in most cases.

 

 

[Karranthain]

oh my god, it is wearing a helmet that makes it impossible to see me, but still it attacks me, and i can't see it's face, surely it must be a terrible monster, i better run away

 

Even worse, it's wearing a metal skirt!

 

[SophosTheWise]

 

oh my god, it is wearing a helmet that makes it impossible to see me, but still it attacks me, and i can't see it's face, surely it must be a terrible monster, i better run away

 

Even worse, it's wearing a metal skirt!

 

 

 

Is that a historical design? 

[Karranthain]

Is that a historical design? 

 

Aye, it actually is - it's called Tonlet (which is the name of the "skirt") armour :

 

 

 

Are you a bad enough dude to wear a metal skirt on the battlefield?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Karranthain

[lolaldanee]

trollolol, that's just too awsome

[Nonek]

That's the Royal Armouries reproduction of Henry the Eighths battle armour from the Field of Cloth of Gold isn't it? Far preferred the first harness he was due to wear for that event.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Nonek

[Karranthain]

That's the Royal Armouries reproduction of Henry the Eighths battle armour from the Field of Cloth of Gold isn't it? Far preferred the first harness he was due to wear for that event.

 

Indeed it is - and did you mean this one :

 

[Lephys]

That tonlet just seems so unnecessarily awkward and bulky. *shrug*. You'd think it would be more prudent to have something that lies closer to your actual shape rather than flaring out so far.

[Tsuga C]

One doesn't lift one's legs all that high while moving in plate, so I imagine that it'd be quite easy to move in. Mounted combat might be a different story, however, as the skirt would have to ride up quite a ways to fit over a saddle.

[Nonek]

@Karranthian, that's the one, the compensating for something armour. Pinnacle of the craft.

 

@Tsuga, apparently he was only competing in the foot melee.

[Lephys]

One doesn't lift one's legs all that high while moving in plate, so I imagine that it'd be quite easy to move in. Mounted combat might be a different story, however, as the skirt would have to ride up quite a ways to fit over a saddle.

I was more thinking of the kind of interaction it would allow OTHERS to partake in:

 

Hooking it with an axe, pulling you off balance. Smashing it with a hammer and bending it inward, so that now you have trouble stepping. I mean, at the very least, it makes you a bigger target than you really are, if a still-not-easily-sliceable one.

[Jarmo]

Plate skirt, one of the things that's hard to imagine being good for anything.

One would immediately think a skirt made of mail would be much less restrictive and infinitely more practical.

... but yea, mail would weigh the same while constantly restricting feet movement.

Would be more practical on a horse though.

[Karranthain]

I've promised I'd write a post about helmets, so here goes, first part of the series (warning, image overload) :

 

HELMETS, PART I

 

More often than not, most games feature rather disappointing helmet designs; it isn't a coincidence that helm removing mods are routinely made for a variety of titles - and regularly become very popular. All of this is, I must say, rather surprising, because there's a wealth of very unique, and most importantly, aesthetically pleasing designs to choose from. So without further ado, here's the first batch (not just of helms themselves, but also of various decorative elements) :

 

 

1. Feathered :

 

 

2. Crested :

 

 

3. Plumed :

 

 

4. Sallet :

 

 

5. Highly decorative crest :

 

 

Share your own favourite decorations, designs - and not just the helmets, but also other assorted headgear.

[Karranthain]

Apologies, two of the images went down, here they are :

 

4. Sallet :

 

 

5. Highly decorative crest :

 

[Karranthain]

I've recently started playing Path of Exile - and I was pleasantly surprised with many of the designs I've seen in this game. Many historical patterns are clearly referenced, sometimes very creatively.
 

Continuing the theme of the helmets, here are some examples from that title (warning, there's a lot of them; I might not have denoted their types correctly in all cases) :
 

HELMETS, PART II

 
I. GLADIATOR HELMETS
 

1. Secutor
 

 
2. Samnite
 

 
3. Murmillo
 

 
 
II. GREAT HELMS
 
 
1. Enclosed
 

 
2. Great Helm
 

 
3. Crusader-style
 

 
 
III. BASCINETS
 
 
 
1. "Pig faced"
 

 
2. Fluted
 

 
3. Elaborate
 

 
 
 
IV. ARMETS
 
 
1. German-style
 

 
2. Elaborate
 

 
V. SALLETS
 
 
1. English style
 

 
2. German style
 

 
 
VI. VARIOUS
 
 
1. Chainmail Coif
 

 
2. Aventail
 

 
3. Barbute
 

 
4. Close Helmet
 

 
5. Burgonet
 

 
 
As you can see, that's a lot of potential designs - and the list isn't even near comprehensive.
Share your favourite helmet designs!

[Woldan]

^ I LOVE Schallers.  (German helmet, like the one in the next pic)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2013 by Woldan

[Karranthain]

Sallets are great, I agree - as I've mentioned before, very intimidating.

 

By the way, does anyone remember whether PE will have an inventory tetris? The helmets that I've posted reminded me just how I miss things such as these :