X-Box One

[Walsingham]

Huge failure or triumph of big business over what people want?

 

I have to say, as a non-console gamer, I'm watching this with keen interest.

 

So far as I've been able to tell, the ONLY thing going for X-Box One is next gen graphics and processors. In all other respects - echoing our WoT debates - it's intrusivce, restrictive, and exploitative.

 

My interest is essentially whether one of the world's top companies can force feed the market this thing it doesn't want using advertising and peer pressure, or whether the console Too Big to Fail will in fact fail.

 

Anyone else grabbing the popcorn?

[Morgoth]

You forgot TeeVee and FIFA.

[ravenshrike]

The proper moniker for the device is XBone as it bones any consumer using it. Which isn't surprising since the real clients that MS is attempting to cater to for this console are the publishers.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

My interest is essentially whether one of the world's top companies can force feed the market this thing it doesn't want using advertising and peer pressure, or whether the console Too Big to Fail will in fact fail.

Didn't they just try that with Windows 8?

[Bokishi]

CoD Ghosts 30 min gameplay movie looked last gen

[LadyCrimson]

I'd guess it won't do quite as well as Microbutt is hoping, but it'll do a lot better (in terms of sales) than many may currently be wishing.

[Amentep]

I won't get it.

 

Waiting to see if I'll get the PS4, but the XB-One's "have to be online once every 24 hours" is not the kind of ease-of-use I buy a console for.

[Walsingham]

The proper moniker for the device is XBone as it bones any consumer using it. Which isn't surprising since the real clients that MS is attempting to cater to for this console are the publishers.

 

That's kind of what I was driving at. Can they make it work by attracting publishers?

[Walsingham]

Well, it looks like the PS4 is going to be DRM lite, free resale etc etc.

 

Essentially it comes down to us consumers now. Do we want to be held down and pay pay for the priviledge of being proverbialed, or do we want to NOT.

 

I could be overblowing this, but I think a LOT of industries are going to be watching this intently. If people choose x-box raping them then that will green light every one and their dog doing so.

[Chippy]

If there wasn't an alternative I'd be concerned that people would feel they have to buy it.  I wonder if this is another step towards the market crashing that doomsayers have been going on about?.

As for the PC though, its all just setting the stage for further restrictive DRM in future AAA games (that I won't be buying, even if Transformers 3 has Grimlock wearing a bowtie) and pushing players into Steam sales.  Then MS might decide to go after that?.

[Walsingham]

In some ways it reminds me of Martin Luther King's last speech. Wallets are power, if only we use them.

 

Having said that it was smart of Sony to make it better across the board by being cheaper as well.

 

I'm seriously thinking about getting a PS4 now - no fooling. The only thing is that I don't buy enough first tier games to make it worthwhile across, say, ten titles.

[AwesomeOcelot]

CoD Ghosts 30 min gameplay movie looked last gen

Not really. Perhaps if you watch a low quality video with bandwidth issues. CoD on the Xbox360 and PS3 rendered at less than 720p, 1024x600 to render at 60 frames per second, that's a low resolution. Just rendering the same game in 1920x1080 is a hell of a difference, and on the PS4 people are suggesting that devs have 6-7GB to play with of GDDR5, being able to have 2GB for textures instead of 256MB will make an incredible difference. 8 years is a long time in terms of hardware, being PC architecture, there's a new generation every 6 months, doubling speeds every 18 months.

 

Rendering technology has slowed a bit, with consoles having a long generation and the increased amount of multi-platform releases. People still look back to Crysis as the game that tested PC hardware a game that came out in 2007. Also the budgets and team sizes massively increased to create the higher fidelity assets, that's not going to happen again. People forget that the launch titles for Xbox360 didn't look great.

 

CoD has never been a leader in terms of graphics, or anything else for that matter. The PS4 reveal games, the first Unreal Engine 4 games, will be impressive especially with the amount of stagnation there has been in recent years.

[LadyCrimson]

The only thing is that I don't buy enough first tier games to make it worthwhile across, say, ten titles.

I look at them now and then but always come to the same conclusion: I wouldn't (yet) buy enough games on the console to make it worth the extra gaming purchase (to me). If hubby was interested in one for his occasional living room gaming vs. PC, we'd get one anyway, but he's not, so...

 

Gaming gets enough of my money as it is anyway.

[ravenshrike]

 

The proper moniker for the device is XBone as it bones any consumer using it. Which isn't surprising since the real clients that MS is attempting to cater to for this console are the publishers.

 

That's kind of what I was driving at. Can they make it work by attracting publishers?

 

Ehhhh. Hard to say. If the whole NSA froufrara hadn't been revealed as it has I would have given them even odds for your average consumer to be gullible enough to go for it. Unfortunately for MS and fortunately for first sale doctrine, the NSA froufrara is occurring and thus when Christmas rolls around the idea of government, or anyone else, spying will still be in their heads. Thus, when presented with the choice between the XBone and the PS4, which has better hardware anyway while being cheaper, they will tend to come down on the side of the PS4. And those who would buy the WiiU will buy that anyway. I predict that without massive changes to their policies, MS will get a thorough ****kicking this console generation. As it should be.

[licketysplit]

I'd consider buying this...thing if Bill gates held a gun to my head. Untill then, I'll stick with my PC.

[Chippy]

If I was a student of marketing or buisness I'd have my eyeballs glued to every bit of info about the XBone - just as a consumer there's certainly alot going on when a company like MS feels it can take these steps.  I don't want to sound like I'm just adding to the mob, but when you take a moment to look at what MS are saying: things like "If your backwards compatible, your really backwards" and "Gamers will buy it becasue that's what gamers do" (that was the most chilling) and comments like "Gamers without 1mb internet should just get an XBox360" this last one was in the same breadth as snarkily remarking how someone was complaing he had no internet on a submarine - and the MS guy expected getting a connection there was hard.  BT are my provider and I'm sure a constant connection is less reliable.

 

It's this level of assurance and hubris that drug dealers assume over their clients.  I find it all a bit disgusting.  A wild theory though is that this is what happens when companies start monitoring their clientele - hours spent playing games, how they're played, etc.

75 hours was the average spent for millions playing Skyrim, that's 2 working weeks or ten days.  I wonder how the buisnessperson percieves that?  That the average gamer can afford to spend 10 days a year or less on just one game in a library of...

[LadyCrimson]

I think people need to come up with a better nick for this console than XBone, which reads more as X-Bone than Xbox-One.

 

@Chippy - while I'd agree I'm not fond of a lot of MS's seeming messages about gamers/gaming, I do have to idly wonder whether someone wanting their Xbox during submarine duty really equals a valid complaint in the first place. Seems more like a time for a Gameboy or something...course, maybe the Gameboy requires the internet these days too ... I wouldn't know.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Thank you MS. Instead of buying your ****ty console, I'm upgrading my PC, getting a new monitor and buying a greater amount of PC games.

 

On topic: If we don't really see a big hit for sales of the ****BoxOne, how do you think that will effect large publishers and their policies?

 

Also, are the typical console buyers tech savvy enough to be aware of what the ****BoxOne will be doing if they even care?

[greylord]

You know what, though I can understand the console kids complaining, I have NO IDEA why the PC gamers are griping or saying what they are saying.  This strategy was already used a long time ago with the PC market to a degree.  First with the initial authorizations that were required when WinXP came out (over a decade ago I might add, you could call in to authenticate and get XP working...but it was a headache...it mostly required internet activation).  Then with Win7 and Win8.  Did MS lose it's market to Linux?  No...not really...though it DID lose a LARGE market share to Apple, but that's more because apple came up with different devices than your laptop and desktop.

 

Than steam came out, with it's internet DRM...and in many ways offered similar ideas...you can download your games and have them connected to a profile.  Though not always sync'd with a specific computer...like the Xbox, you can access the games mostly everywhere...just like with the Xbox One, if you carry your console you should be able to access the games anywhere as long as you have an internet connection.  Now you can play steam games offline...but most don't...in fact most who use steam keep their computer connected...and I'd say the majority if not most actually have their computer connected all the time.

 

MMORPG's, Computers largest group of gamers have to be connected simply to play!

 

Now there ARE THOSE like me that do play Computer games...but buy from smaller publishers that do not require this DRM stuff...but for the most part, when confronted with the DRM and what others may perceive as the death of PC gaming...as I saw on a recent thread...they will come back and say PC gaming is doing better then ever!

 

With that logic, and seeing what DRM has done with PC gaming...why in the heck would you complain about MS doing a similar thing with their console?

 

Now I, as a PC gamer who avoids the DRM games...and plays on consoles to play larger games at times without the PC DRM hassle (as a sidepoint, the PS3 actually HAS DRM to a degree as well...already...just not as onerous as the PC DRM), I can understand why I might avoid the Xbox One along with others who do the same as I, but for a majority of those here who praise PC gaming, say it's better then ever before...and sing praises to the DRM lords...

 

Why in the heck does the Xbox One having to connect every 24 hours even bother you?

 

That accounts for the loss of internet...unless you hit a major catastrophe...normally you'll be able to hook up to the internet at least once in 24 hours, even if the connections are spotty.  Afterall, you already have those connections with PC gaming?  Compared to Steams on option...it's probably going to be even more streamlined and I'm betting you will even be able to play games much easier than you can when steam updates a game (aka...I'm thinking xbox one's updating of games will not prevent you from playing a game...as a guess of course).

 

I can understand other forums I go to complaining...but on this one with all those who are fanatical steam addicts and crazy about the DRM'd and online games...doesn't make sense.

 

From the viewpoint that many of you have exhibited, MS is actually making a much smarter move then Sony in this regards...they are moving on with what people like YOU ACTUALLY WANT!!!  Furthermore...as seen with STEAM, ORIGINS, and even Windows OS's...YOU DESIRE this type of medium.  The faster MS transfers to utilizing this medium, the faster they kick Sony in the jar and take over gaming.

 

So, why exactly...when you use so much of other DRM mediums...are you suddenly against one?

[ManifestedISO]

So, why exactly...when you use so much of other DRM mediums...are you suddenly against one?

 

Consoles are just different. They come with different expectations, independent of mass market reality. I have Origin, Steam, and Uplay, and an Xbox 360, but I just pre-ordered a PS4 because Sony exposed a nerve inside my gamer's psyche that says consoles shouldn't be all-digital, always-connected platforms. Not yet. PC games, yes ... consoles, no. 

 

I can't really explain it, but a crazy-fun magic happened at Sony's E3 press conference ... also independent of reality. But that's what made it great. It was as if the underdog manufacturer gave us a way out, a better option: a more powerful machine at a much lower price. The irony is about perception ... the Kinect won't actually spy on us, but it seems like it will. An always-online connection isn't that big of a deal, either, but it seems like it will be, especially to the underdog consumer. Never in all my life have I seen such a wave of momentum for any product.       

Edited June 16, 2013 by ManifestedISO

[AwesomeOcelot]

Steam's DRM and XBone's daily check-in are not the same, with Steam you can play offline. The only time you are required to be online for DRM unless you're using an online service is when you buy a Steamworks game on disc and need to register it.

 

I don't actually mind them blocking used games, the parts that are like Steam I don't have a problem with. There wasn't really a used game market for PC because you may as well just pirate if you're going to do that.

 

A lot of people who've had broadband for over 10 years have experienced outages. I don't want things I've paid for to stop working for no legitimate reason concerning me, companies shouldn't be hurting paying customers with DRM. I've experienced far more service outages on the publisher side, and buggy DRM systems that didn't work correctly.

 

PC gamers did get pissed at DRM, Ubisoft's always on DRM, Blizzard and EA unnecessarily shifting single player games online, I boycotted those games, and apart from the ones that got patched later I still don't play those games and probably never will.

[Walsingham]

So, why exactly...when you use so much of other DRM mediums...are you suddenly against one?

 

 

You got me, at least. That's true.

 

Thinking about what you've written - which was very lucid - I'd say the point is that we've been given an easy alternate to back. I mean I've used Linux for work and study, but I was never going to use it for the majority of my work - MS Office is hell's standard - nor for gaming. Whereas an easy to use, cheaper, friendlier PS4 is just sitting there begging me to switch.

[Chippy]

@LadyCrimson - You have to admire the spin though   As though that customer is the only specific type it wont reach. Heh.

 

@Greylord  - I have to politely disagree with a few points there - I had the same philosphy of ownership as you have (I own the hardware and the disc) but Securom shattered that pretty well, it made it's way onto my PC without my knowlege and sabotaged my DVD drive when I switched video cards.  So I'm sure I'm another statistic that they can add to consumers who desire/are using that 'product' but I didn't have a choice in its installation or its uninstallation because its removal tool didn't work.  I had to format the HD on another PC; they have no control over that and I'm sure (jaded enough) that if they could implement facial recognition and fingerprint ID on our camera's and mice to prevent it they would ... that's where I see this all going.   There was also a court order stating that Securom should be advertised on the game, which publishers have ignored.

 

Xbox One may not have Securom I know, but the effect is the same - you don't own the game or the hardware if a publisher or otherwise can prevent you from accessing your property.  It's that basic consumer breach of rights that concerns me, because I know as soon as EA or Activision work out how, its coming to the PC.  I honestly don't care though because its all about Kickstarter for me now, but I'd buy South Park and other games to support Obsidian because we've yet to see if Kickstarter is enough for the midsized developer to survive. 

So if I get it on Steam I know the only thing I have to worry about is Valve going out of buisness...to which they've stated the if the customer has backed up their game, will run forever without the online requirement, wit hSteam as a simple offline launch utility.

 

So ultimately I don't see the big bad about 'Steam DRM' that others do (like the Shadowrun returns backlash) and really consider my participation in other forms of DRM as a result of being a total plonker.  But I'm past that now... 

[ravenshrike]

Than steam came out, with it's internet DRM...and in many ways offered similar ideas...you can download your games and have them connected to a profile.  Though not always sync'd with a specific computer...like the Xbox, you can access the games mostly everywhere...just like with the Xbox One, if you carry your console you should be able to access the games anywhere as long as you have an internet connection.  Now you can play steam games offline...but most don't...in fact most who use steam keep their computer connected...and I'd say the majority if not most actually have their computer connected all the time.

False equivalency much? Here's a secret, every single one of my Steam games is backed up in it's original folder structure with a crack set up and fully playable on my storage drives with a soft link to take advantage of any primary drive saves. Steam DRM is ridiculously easy to crack by design. The only reasons they have it at all is for legal coverage and publisher mollification as well as multiplayer verification. It's not really there to stop pirates. Moreover, offline mode works quite well and lasts for three months. So, if for some bizarre assed reason, I wanted to cart my 70lb tower around when on a road trip, i would only have to log in once every three months to play my games. Even members of the military can get some sort of internet connection that often(Seriously though, with the 24hr connection process they wrote off the entire military sector which is, quite frankly, ****ing stupid. In fact, if Sony was at all smart they would offer a promotion to military members for 10% off of games during the 1st year of the PS4s release). Whereas I've had multi-day broadband outages before and continued to play my PC and console games.

 

Calling the XBone's DRM similar to Steam's is like calling Obama's Fast and Furious program similar to Bush's Wide Receiver. Only in the broadest ways are they at all similar, and thus the only people who can legitimately hold that opinion are those who are ignorant of the details. Everyone else holding that opinion must be a blanket partisan.

[greylord]

 

Than steam came out, with it's internet DRM...and in many ways offered similar ideas...you can download your games and have them connected to a profile.  Though not always sync'd with a specific computer...like the Xbox, you can access the games mostly everywhere...just like with the Xbox One, if you carry your console you should be able to access the games anywhere as long as you have an internet connection.  Now you can play steam games offline...but most don't...in fact most who use steam keep their computer connected...and I'd say the majority if not most actually have their computer connected all the time.

False equivalency much? Here's a secret, every single one of my Steam games is backed up in it's original folder structure with a crack set up and fully playable on my storage drives with a soft link to take advantage of any primary drive saves. Steam DRM is ridiculously easy to crack by design. The only reasons they have it at all is for legal coverage and publisher mollification as well as multiplayer verification. It's not really there to stop pirates. Moreover, offline mode works quite well and lasts for three months. So, if for some bizarre assed reason, I wanted to cart my 70lb tower around when on a road trip, i would only have to log in once every three months to play my games. Even members of the military can get some sort of internet connection that often(Seriously though, with the 24hr connection process they wrote off the entire military sector which is, quite frankly, ****ing stupid. In fact, if Sony was at all smart they would offer a promotion to military members for 10% off of games during the 1st year of the PS4s release). Whereas I've had multi-day broadband outages before and continued to play my PC and console games.

 

Calling the XBone's DRM similar to Steam's is like calling Obama's Fast and Furious program similar to Bush's Wide Receiver. Only in the broadest ways are they at all similar, and thus the only people who can legitimately hold that opinion are those who are ignorant of the details. Everyone else holding that opinion must be a blanket partisan.

 

 

Sooooo...you pirate your Steam games then???

 

Xbox One probably will also have a crack I'd imagine from the pirates eventually.

 

PS3 had it's crack when it's DRM came out, and various other types of cracked the PSP and PSVITA systems to run the pirated games.

 

Cracking the system is not the point.  If you pirate...then there's nothing saying you won't still be able to pirate on the Xbox One that I know of (though personally, I don't support that and would NEVER do that to one of my consoles...)

 

The point, whether or not you can crack the system (Xbox One, STEAM, Windows Authentication, Origin, Sony types of DRM) is that people on the PC have not only supported, but will even state it's doing better than ever before for PC gaming.  IF those supporting these types of DRM are so fanatically amazed at how awesome their PC gaming experience is, and support such so completely and fully, why are they putting such a fuss about the Xbox One online requirements.

 

You can STILL PLAY YOUR GAMES OFFLINE...with the Xbox One.  You need to log on once every 24 hours...but hey, if you played StarCraft 2 (though not as stringent) you had a 30 day there and skirmish SP was not possible when released unless YOU WERE ONLINE, or with Diablo III it was always online as well for ALL of SP.  Many of the major PC game releases have much more stringent protections, not all, but many.

 

Steam itself has an assumption that you are always online.  IT HAS an offline capability, but the assumption built into the programming (and it appears correct) is that a majority are always connected and hence it can download patches as needed for steam and for your game library.

 

In addition, Xbox one has the ability for your console to get to your game library anywhere, without the need of a disk after initial installation...or if you can buy without the installation.  In addition, it will have the ability to transfer games to others anywhere in the world digitally without the use of mail or other methods.

 

This is very similar to the electronic DRM that everyone praises currently (well, everyone but me and the others who say PC gaming is dead...WHICH as per another thread...most here say it is not and sing praises to the Very DRM they are now cursing...which I find very odd to tell the truth).

 

IF PC gaming is NOT dead, and is alive as everyone says, and in addition the advantages are so great with things such as Steam...it would seem that you should be jumping onto the Xbox One boat and that perhaps MS has actually accurately evaluated the market and will actually sell better than all the PC internet groups are griping.

 

What I THINK is happening is that people are jumping on the "hate Xbox One boat" which is popular right now.  I think that the initial sentiment was probably started by the crowd I am with which state PC gaming is dead.  Why?  Because we all are PC gamers, but the major releases we normally don't play on PC's anymore, we fled to the consoles.  So, when this came out among these crowds, there has been a LARGE pushback...why?  Because we came to consoles to avoid this entire stupid PC DRM always online mess.

 

Are we right that PC gaming IS dead?  According to the thread on this site, we could not be more wrong.  DRM with PC's has brought a new golden age and sales are better then ever before.  The large, some may say, MASSIVE group of what you could call...PC gamers gone consoles however...have been rather outraged with the entire idea of consoles going PC DRM online messes.

 

Are we the majority...or a minority though?  I think we are actually a majority...but even if we aren't, the mime that we exhibited towards consoles taking the same approach PC gaming has been utilizing for years has taken hold of a larger audience and currently Xbox One is feeling that backlash.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that just a few days ago people were thrashing on the entire idea of PC gaming having decreased and gone downhill due to this entire DRM fiasco that has hit PC gaming and PC's in general.  Instead they were pointing out that it was better then ever and PC gaming was apparently in a golden age.

 

With such opinions, the thoughts on the Xbox One should be one of rejoicing on this site, instead of the attitude that I've seen overall.

 

The only REAL explanation I have is that people jumped on the Xbox One online DRM hate bandwagon started by people that I game with...because it's currently the popular thing to do. 

 

Either that or they forgot that they could fight back for so long that they simply accepted the state of PC gaming and only now when one of the ways to not be burdened with the state of PC online DRM has been threatened with that exact same type of approach...do they finally let their outrage at the entire situation known.