Using Magic (Mana? No Mana?)

[Frenetic Pony]

So... how does PE decide how many spells a spellcaster can cast? Is it D&D like, where you can memorize/use a certain amount of spells at once, and then after their exhausted you need to rest or something? Is there a mana limit and you spend mana to cast spells? Something else?

 

If it were possible, just as a blank slate, I wouldn't mind seeing a unique spellcasting system for each class. One memorizes X spells and that's their limit, another has mana and spends that to cast whatever spells they want, the chanters chant and etc. That of course precludes non specifically spellcasting classes from casting spells, but it also gives each spellcasting class a thing that their "soul" ability does, and creates some really interesting variety.

[mcmanusaur]

I think a simple "Energy"/"Fatigue" system works well enough, without even bothering to divide out "mana" and "stamina" (because the chances are that one of those two will just be neglected entirely depending on the character's class). The clunky "memorize X spells" and "X spells per day" mechanics of DnD-based games never appealed to me in the slightest, though I can understand the desire for more nuance than "cast until mana depleted".

[Gfted1]

So... how does PE decide how many spells a spellcaster can cast? Is it D&D like, where you can memorize/use a certain amount of spells at once, and then after their exhausted you need to rest or something? Is there a mana limit and you spend mana to cast spells? Something else?

From what I understand, spells will be "memorized" by being queued in your grimoire, which has a finite amount of slots. They can then be cast at will but are on a cool down which varies in length by the level of the spell.

[cleric Nemir]

MMO approach? So if the game is RTwP,I imagine it will pause the cooldown as well.

[Lephys]

Well, they've mentioned a per-day limit and a per-encounter limit. I'm not sure if it's just going to be spell "ammo" or what, and I'm not sure if still are limited to how many spells at a time you can memorize/prepare or not. As Gfted1 said, I believe they said something about your spell access limitation basically being what fits in a given grimoire (for Wizards, at least), and I think even hinted at being able to switch out grimoires much like weapons, so that you can actually prepare different sets of spells to use at different times.

 

This leads me to believe that we won't see the "You're Level 1? You can only prepare 3 different spells per day, even though you know like 10 spells" limits as in D&D rules.

 

*shrug*. There's a lot we don't know, I don't think. Personally, I think that if they've already got a per-day refresh and a per-encounter refresh, it would make perfect sense to have yet another sub-set of time, even within an encounter, such as a real-time cooldown or a limited mana pool. However, I'm not sure whether or not an additional subset like that would really be necessary, in the grand scheme of things.

[Prometheus]

I think it's the following: a mage can cast spells from a spell level a number of times before he needs to rest. if his level is high enough low level spells will replenish after battle. The mage can only casts spells that are in his/her grimoire. But he can change his griomoire. I'm not sure if he can change his grimoire in the battle.

The priest/druid can cast all spells from their spell list but there spell lists aren't as big as the spell list from the mage. I think the priest/druid has the same per rest/ per encounter limits as the mage.

The chanter can arrange phrases(magical effects) to chants. He will automatically start chanting at the beginning of a fight. after a number of phrases he can use a targeted roar. I don't know if there are any limitaton on how many times you can use a roar.

[AGX-17]

I think it's the following: a mage can cast spells from a spell level a number of times before he needs to rest. if his level is high enough low level spells will replenish after battle. The mage can only casts spells that are in his/her grimoire.

Right, it's already been established that magic will have a set number of casts per-rest, like Dark Souls. No mana, no potions to restore that which does not exist.

Edited June 8, 2013 by AGX-17

[Gfted1]

To be clear, when you guys are saying per rest, you mean the player will have to go all the way back to the special "rest spot" and set up camp to replenish those spells? Sounds like the Vancian system which, iirc, they were trying to get away from.

[Prometheus]

To be clear, when you guys are saying per rest, you mean the player will have to go all the way back to the special "rest spot" and set up camp to replenish those spells? Sounds like the Vancian system which, iirc, they were trying to get away from.

Yes, it's similar to the vancian system. I thought what they wanted to get a way from is that your mage isn't doing anything in a fight, because he doesn't want to use his per rest resources.That is why there will be per battle resources(low level spells or blasts/implements for mages). I think they want to make the game both tactical and stragical, so they need resources that are per rest. See response from Josh Sawyer on formspring:

 

The definitions are not used concretely, but strategies focus on planning or preparation and tactics focus on reactive elements "in the moment". A simplified way of looking at it might be to consider good tactics necessary to win battles, but good strategy is required to win wars.

[...]

Sometimes, a decision made in battle can be tactical and strategic. For example, using a limited resource ability (e.g. a high level spell). The most tactically efficient thing to do may be to spend the limited resource ability, but if you think you have more difficult enemies coming up prior to regaining that resource, you may want to hold off.

 

I like RPGs to have both tactical and strategic elements, which is more in line with the AD&D-based RPGs of the late 80s-early 2000s. I'm trying to ensure PE will have both layers for players to consider.

[Ulquiorra]

D&D spellcasting and rest spawning was propanly one of reasons i never played mages to much. In nvn1 for example a mage before 8 level almost after every combat shoud be resting. a fighter rest only when his hp is low so ...

 

the energy/mana/stamina system is better in my opinion.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yes, spellcasters have a mix of unlimited (at-will, to use a 4E term), per-encounter, and per-rest abilities.  Their most powerful spells are always their per-rest abilities, with lower-level spells eventually flipping over to per-encounter as they advance.

 

We have no "mana" or equivalent universal resources, though ciphers do have a Focus resource and monks have Wounds.

[Lephys]

Much obliged, Josh. I wasn't aware of the at-will "tier" of spell-tossability. I'm sure I missed it somewhere,

 

Also good to know with certainty that, at no point/under no circumstances is there mana.

 

Josh Sawyer... Replacing Project:Eternity uncertainties with certainties since 2012.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Lephys

[Odglok]

I'm glad to know there's no mana bar, so thanks for that info. I guess I still feel like spellcasting should gradually fatigue the caster, but really it's more important to go with whatever system works best in the actual game.

 

I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books, so I may be speaking from ignorance here, but it irked me that in the movies there seemed to be no limit or consequence for spellcasting. Granted, it's a movie, so there's no real need for such mechanics. But I recall one of the few actual spells that Gandalf casts in the Lord of the Rings books (not depitcted in the movies) was when they were attempting to escape Moria. My memory is vague, but Gandalf is trying to magically shut a great door as they flee from the balrog, when suddenly the balrog uses a counterspell (or something to that effect) and Gandalf describes the spell-battle as physically exhausting. To me that just made more sense than "derp, I'm out of mana, guess I'll run away" or "oops, I've already cast all the spells I can for today, better take a nap".

[Lephys]

My memory is vague, but Gandalf is trying to magically shut a great door as they flee from the balrog, when suddenly the balrog uses a counterspell (or something to that effect) and Gandalf describes the spell-battle as physically exhausting. To me that just made more sense than "derp, I'm out of mana, guess I'll run away" or "oops, I've already cast all the spells I can for today, better take a nap".

If I'm not mistaken, the quantity limitation (spells per day) is an abstract representation of the amount of magic-usage fatigue each spell incurs. As is mana, really.

 

Granted, I get that neither generally comes coupled with the physical aspects of fatigue that you're referring to with your Gandalf example, and that is an interesting aspect, indeed. However, I think they generally just treat it as two different forms of fatigue. Kind of like how doing 6-straight hours of math might leave your brain's complex-processing circuits a bit spent, but it wouldn't make it difficult to go run a few miles at that point.

 

I would be quite interested in seeing some kind of endurance/fatigue aspect to spells, though (and physical attacks/actions, really), even if mental and physical fatigue remained separate. Maybe, instead of being solely dependent upon hard-coded cast times, the cast time of your spell would depend heavily upon your level of mental fatigue. So, if you cast 3 big spells back-to-back, each takes 4 seconds longer to cast than the one before. Kind of like carrying a 100lb weight 50 feet while sprinting will leave you more tired than carrying a 20lb weight 50 feet while sprinting.

 

All the while, your mental fatigue would slowly dissipate. Smaller/simpler spells would exert you less than larger/more complex spells, so, you wouldn't have to space the smaller spells out as much as the larger ones to prevent your fatigue from increasing beyond a certain point.

 

Of course, I'm not sure how anything resembling that example system would fit into P:E, what with already-complex party control as it stands. You'd need some pretty complex behavior settings to tell your Wizard not to get his cast time up up above 8 seconds, or to do just that when having those extra spells now rather than later are worth the fatigue afterwards.

[Infinitron]

I'm glad to know there's no mana bar, so thanks for that info. I guess I still feel like spellcasting should gradually fatigue the caster, but really it's more important to go with whatever system works best in the actual game.

 

I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books, so I may be speaking from ignorance here, but it irked me that in the movies there seemed to be no limit or consequence for spellcasting. Granted, it's a movie, so there's no real need for such mechanics. But I recall one of the few actual spells that Gandalf casts in the Lord of the Rings books (not depitcted in the movies) was when they were attempting to escape Moria. My memory is vague, but Gandalf is trying to magically shut a great door as they flee from the balrog, when suddenly the balrog uses a counterspell (or something to that effect) and Gandalf describes the spell-battle as physically exhausting. To me that just made more sense than "derp, I'm out of mana, guess I'll run away" or "oops, I've already cast all the spells I can for today, better take a nap".

 

You might want to check out the works of the recently deceased Jack Vance.