Make (some) spells more difficult to obtain.

[eschaton]

One thing I always disliked about the D&D system is how mundane magic was treated.  Spellcasters like clerics and sorcerers just could learn any old spell of the proper level intrinsically.  Mages could pick them up at any store as if you were buying a broadsword (or worse, random loot which a non-caster had).  It took any mystery out of the system.

 

What I would suggest instead would be different systems for obtaining spells depending upon the class involved.  For example:

 

Wizards:  Their knowledge of magic is based upon reading.  Therefore, it makes sense for something like the traditional D&D methods (purchasing or otherwise obtaining scrolls) to make sense.  However, higher-level spells should be knowledge which wizards hoard.  Access to the best spells should be something you get only upon completion of a quest, killing a powerful mage, or finding some really great treasure.  

 

Priest:  What makes priests different is devotion to their god.  They should not, therefore, merely get new all spells upon leveling up.  The best spells should be "holy boons" which they get upon completing divine work.  This includes mundane things such as donating/making offerings to the temple, but also potentially questing - both directly helping the church along, as well as merely acting in a "godly" manner.  This means that if you have two clerics who support different gods, you won't be able to maximize both.  

 

Chanter:  Their magic is based upon pre-literate traditions - oral history essentially.  As a result, it can't really be learned in books, and it presumably can't be learned intrinsically.  I would assume the most logical way to advance a chanter's power would be for them to meet with other chanters who instruct new "ways of knowing" as time passes.  

 

Cipher:  From what we understand, a cipher's abilities are inherent.  The traditional system of leveling increasing their power therefore makes a great deal of sense, although one could argue that some degree of ongoing focus would be needed, and if there were a large number of abilities, they shouldn't all just magically appeal upon leveling up.  

 

Anyway, thoughts?  

[Prometheus]

for the chanter I would  think that they would find new phrases in old books and stone writings or similar things. Of course they could also ask other npcs about them, but I don't think they need a long time to learn new phrases. all they need to know are the words and the pronunciation.

 

Josh Sawyer answered a question about this topic on formspring:
 

Wizards learn a few spells every time they gain access to a new spell level. They must find the rest of the spells for each level in the world (stores or found grimoires). No matter how many spells a wizard knows, he or she can only have a subset of those spells available in a given grimoire at one time, meaning that the number of spells they can choose from at any given time is more limited than those of clerics or druids.

Clerics and druids gain access to all spells of a given level as soon as they are able to cast from that level, though their spell lists are smaller than those of wizards.

Chanters learn some phrases as they advance and can find additional phrases in the world. Ciphers choose individual powers as they advance.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Prometheus

[Micamo]

Wizards:  Their knowledge of magic is based upon reading.  Therefore, it makes sense for something like the traditional D&D methods (purchasing or otherwise obtaining scrolls) to make sense.  However, higher-level spells should be knowledge which wizards hoard.  Access to the best spells should be something you get only upon completion of a quest, killing a powerful mage, or finding some really great treasure. 

 

This is how things used to work in AD&D, and it was dumped in third edition for some good reasons: Not the least of which being "I'm level 9 and fighting CR 9 encounters and yet I still can't cast any spells above first level because my DM is being too stingy with giving out scrolls as treasure" or "My character is supposed to be a necromancer but I can't find any scrolls of Animate Dead to save my ass." Those two free spells you get each level up means the player has some control over what direction their character takes.

 

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't be fine with some spells being unselectable at level-up that have to be acquired as a reward for a quest or something. But this should not be the only method for a wizard to get new spells.

[Nonek]

Heartily agree old chap, very good ideas.

 

Wizards - The whispered rumours of dread grimoires, weilded by the greatest of their brethren throughout the ages. Tomes that hold dread powers and cunning snares for he who tries to decipher their secrets.

 

Priest - As you say adherence to church doctrine, faultless faith and righteous zeal in the face of heresy and temptation. Gained through prayer and devotion.

 

Chanters - Love the idea of the Chanter being a Mnemonikos, maybe hearing purer or alternate translations of the old saga poems and recitals. Learned from old Shaman and village wise women.

 

Ciphers - Not sure, maybe self knowledge opens new doors in their minds, and in knowing themsleves they grow stronger. Or you could have foci, trinkets from childhood or from long dead Ciphers that still hold a portion of their mighty will.

[mcmanusaur]

Even TES: Morrowind was more interesting than most DnD-based games I've played in this regard; at least you had to look around for people who could give you that spell. I think you could easily broaden this to the notion that all "skills" progression should require the familiar experience component along with a more distinct knowledge component, which is something I'd really like to see.

[Lephys]

I think it would be awesome if your ability choices at level-ups were representative of putting your time, experience, and study into achieving a breakthrough with your abilities (which they're kind of supposed to be), in that you (as a Wizard, for example) only actually learn a rudimentary magical concept, and it develops from there based on a combination of further progression choices AND documents and artifacts you find, as well as things you can potentially learn from others throughout the game. So, maybe you basically learn the ability to manipulate/manifest ice, and you have a few basic aspects to any spell, just for being a Wizard (basic projectile, basic field, etc.). Then, as you go, you learn things like how to split a weave into multiple projectiles, or how to generate additional effects once a projectile collides (or cause it to leave a trail-effect as it goes, causing a detrimental line foes regret crossing), etc.

 

So, you only inherently learn simple types and utilities of magical energy, and you learn/discover more elaborate effects and effective uses for various types as you go, from all manner of sources.

 

*Shrug*

[Micamo]

Even TES: Morrowind was more interesting than most DnD-based games I've played in this regard; at least you had to look around for people who could give you that spell. I think you could easily broaden this to the notion that all "skills" progression should require the familiar experience component along with a more distinct knowledge component, which is something I'd really like to see.

 

I've not played it, but apparently Risen 2: Dark Waters takes this approach. From what I heard of it, it's supposedly not as immersive and wonderful as it sounds.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Micamo

[Lephys]

^ Even with such systems, the flaw I've found is that everything is an overly specific spell. It's just my viewpoint, I think. But, I mean, with a sword, people come up with COUNTLESS styles and techniques. All with the same tool. But then, you're wielding arcane power, and someone discovered a specific "formula," so to speak, for creating a fireball and hurling it at someone, and now that's the ONLY thing you can possibly do. You can't make a bigger fireball, or a smaller fireball, or a hotter fireball, or a fire scythe, or a fire unicorn, or literally just an orb of magma that you control about and melt through things. Nope. Some dudes invented fireballs, and now that's a spell. You can either use that, or you just can't magically do anything with fire at all.

 

That part just always seemed a little strange to me, ESPECIALLY in the context of games. In static stories and literature, it's not quite as bad, but it still doesn't make for an incredibly believable world. I mean, however you're making a fireball, you're obviously still manipulating physics. The fire's burning oxygen, is it not (even if you can magically create the oxygen in an oxygen-less environment), so why can't you adjust how much oxygen it burns? You can ignite the air itself, and shape it into a "ball," but you can't shape it in any other way, or make a bigger or smaller ball? Why not?

 

Seems like wielders of magic should really have a lot more control over magical energies than they do in the "Gotta Catch 'Em All" magic systems of countless games and fictions. *shrug*

[rjshae]

Yeah, limiting the Wizard spells available at level up would be a nice start. Perhaps choose three spell themes studied during your apprenticeship, then that determines your level-up selection. Anything else you need to find in old tomes and study (I.e. carry the book around for a level).

[Archmage Silver]

Maybe it's my irrational love of AD&D 2E, but I liked how you could run into trouble if your mages hadn't been "keeping up with their studies" - i.e. hadn't focused enough on acquiring new spell scrolls to learn. Mages should be thinking about magic almost all the time and look for ways to improve their own repertoire of spells, that's their passion, not the gold your run-of-the-mill dwarven rogue likes to accumulate. I don't want to have everything handed to me, I want to make it on my own instead, and if I'm really, really good at the game, end up with a massive library of spells that I can choose from.

[Iron_JG]

With respect to the OP, in BG2, and IWD2 as well, I think, certain spell scrolls were rare, particularly 9th level spells, though I concede there wasn't much more to acquiring them than finding the right vendor. I seem to recall some 3rd edition games -- maybe the original campaign of NWN2 -- where my wizards had to rely on metamagic feats to cast "9th" level spells. Like so many other mechanics in cRPGs, it's a balancing act. A player shouldn't feel artificially cheated out of their class's key abilities when they level up, especially at higher levels where the anticipation is greatest. I think for a wizard or other caster to not have at least a few top tier spells available as soon as they are high enough level to cast them is unfair and hobbles them.

 

That said, I think having some abilities contingent on completing special quests or finding special trainers can be fun. So here are my thoughts on it:

 

Casters should unlock a few spell options automatically when they level up, but those spells should be based on the main kinds of low level spells already in their repertoire. I don't know if P:E has spells divided into distinct schools, but it shouldn't be hard to say, "Okay, this guy has 5 illusion-based spells, 2 evocation spells, and 1 necromancy spell, so he gets to pick from 2 higher level illusion spells and 1 evocation spell, plus choosing 1 lower level conjuration or divination spell." That way you still get that sense of "building on what you know," while being able to diversify as a caster. But casters would be able to find more spells by finding trainers/merchants what have you. Kind of like with TES, the trainer/merchant could give you a quest or quests to earn their services.

 

This would be fun, I think, but it would require a lot of design time, I bet, and there's another question of fairness raised: Would non-caster classes be neglected if they didn't receive similar content/mechanics? So a more a practical and also fun route would be to have special abilities that each class could unlock through special NPCs/events. I think good prizes here would be amplified versions of spells or abilities the character already has. Not knowing enough about PE mechanics, DnD analogues might be: being able to cast fireball-type spells with metamagic adjustments lowered by one spell level, or getting an attack bonus when dual-wielding (instead of a penalty), or being able to sneak attack certain kinds of constructs/undead. This could still represent the specialized training that really defines a character and their in-game, narrative-influenced choices. They'd also represent more permanent rewards for "treading off the beaten path" than extra loot would.

[Frenetic Pony]

Being able to get an "epic" spell, like an "epic" piece of loot might be cool. "You must collect the twelve parts of the tomb of Yasha and assemble them on the full moon under the light of Mt. Tirnoth!" or whatever. And then you do that and you get some sort of kickass ultimate spell that takes all your mana (if there is mana) and summons a volcano or something.

 

Point is, you could have some spells work more like traditional "loot" equipment than something you just get for free.

[JFSOCC]

I love quests where you have to explore a haunted library and in the restricted library there's an awesome spell as your reward.

Or a quest for a master smith where you have to find the right ores, craft your own weapon, and be rewarded with a customised weapon of +5 awesomeness.

Or a rogue who has beaten an obstacle course gets rewarded with climbing gear and training, allowing him or her to scale some buildings for other entrances.

IE pick up the cooler abilities and spells by playing through the game, not just levelling up.