Turkey unrest

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well I really do wonder what the root cause of these riots are,  I don't see them escalating to a revolution without either foreign funds (and a lot of them too, like with any revolution) or the typical Turkish scenario of the army overthrowing the government. I don't think either is likely to happen.

 

I'd be glad to see Erdogan replaced by a more secular leader, he's been actively competing with the Saudis over influence over the Balkan muslims and meddling where he shouldn't be, helping drive the muslim population towards a more radical interpretations of Islam and overall driving the whole region and his own country backwards.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[melkathi]

Root cause seems pretty straight forward, even though Erdogan plays the "foreign agitators" card very happily (funny how he is at the same time accused of only daring the excessive violence because of his close ties to the US and EU governments foreign support can go either way after all...). The modern turkish state had a clear distinction between state and church, based on Kemal Ataturk's principles. Under Erdogan, a lot of that separation has been rubbed away. Enough for many to start percieving Turkey as a muslim state.

Kemal had banned women from covering up with headscarfs, veils or whatever religion asks them to. That was perhaps too extreme. Erdogan is pushing the country in the opposite direction. The proposed projects for Gezi Park / Taksim Square are symbols of the intended islamisation. 

 

For me the question is less how the protesters are supported by foreign interests. I am more appaled at the fact that our western governments aren't supporting them

[Zoraptor]

The west only supported the Egyptian and Tunisian protests once it became clear they would win/ the cost of supporting The Hoz/ Ben Ali and keeping them in power got too high relative to their usefulness. Erdogan has certain advantages even over them (actually democratically elected and broadly supported, leading efforts on Syria, more strategic location even than Egypt), and has a certain reputation for prickliness where any support of his enemies will lead to repercussions. Basically he's unlikely to be toppled and will not respond well to outside interference.

 

Apparently it was part of the longer statement by Sezer that also included the six suicides and the terrible conditions the police are kept under?

There's an english language source for the suicides (and bad conditions) at least. If there were something on resignations from him it would probably be in Turkish and require translation.

[melkathi]

Yeah. I had found that link. But I expect anyone who is seriously taking part in this discussion to have read that

[NOK222]

Can't provide you a link. Saw it on the news. Apparently it was part of the longer statement by Sezer that also included the six suicides and the terrible conditions the police are kept under?

RT showed an interview with an anonymous policeman. Can't dig that up though.

 

Indeed, apparently Erdogan's voters are mostly from rural areas, farmers and lower class.

 

What I think will threaten him more than he expected are things like having police stop funeal processions. I doubt Turkey is that different from the rest of the countries around here: beat them, kill them, do whatever you want, but you don't mess with dead people and funerals.

 

Erdogan has not yet shown any indication that "restraint" is part of his vocabulary. Apparently there is now discent within the party as well.

 

It will also be intersting to see how the courts handle this. The AKP under Erdogan has done everything in their power to replace kemalist judges with ones of a more muslim orientation. Same goes for the army. Yet at least in the army, even the new officers will have gone through kemalists schools and training, so that can come 'round and bite him.

Educate me, what is kermalist?

[Zoraptor]

Secular, basically- more or less what you'd expect from a typical 'western' style set up. Named after Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of modern Turkey.

[BruceVC]

The west only supported the Egyptian and Tunisian protests once it became clear they would win/ the cost of supporting The Hoz/ Ben Ali and keeping them in power got too high relative to their usefulness. Erdogan has certain advantages even over them (actually democratically elected and broadly supported, leading efforts on Syria, more strategic location even than Egypt), and has a certain reputation for prickliness where any support of his enemies will lead to repercussions. Basically he's unlikely to be toppled and will not respond well to outside interference.

 

Apparently it was part of the longer statement by Sezer that also included the six suicides and the terrible conditions the police are kept under?

There's an english language source for the suicides (and bad conditions) at least. If there were something on resignations from him it would probably be in Turkish and require translation.

 

Not everything is a conspiracy theory with the West operating in the background surreptitiously acting only when it directly serves its own self-interests.

 

The West  correctly considers Turkey an ally and friend and won't just intervene in any domestic issue.

 

Edited June 18, 2013 by BruceVC

[Lexx]

Source on those resignations?

Here is something about these suicides at least. Can't find anything about the resignation stuff right now.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Lexx

[melkathi]

 

The West  correctly considers Turkey an ally and friend

 

Care to elaborate?

[melkathi]

 

Educate me, what is kermalist?

 

 

I'll just throw a wiki-link at you since it can explain better than I:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism

[BruceVC]

 

 

The West  correctly considers Turkey an ally and friend

 

Care to elaborate?

 

 

Sure, Turkey is considered a secular and democratic Muslim country. It was been trying to join the EU since 2005. These are some of the reasons Western companies consider Turkey a good place to invest in and also its a bridge into the region. Its easy to do business in Turkey.

Turkey and the USA have shared information on the PKK as Turkey considers them a terrorist organization. Turkey was one of the first countries to condemn the brutal clampdown of Assad on people wanting political change in Syria. They have personally had to take in hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugee's which is an expensive initiative. NATO has deployed Patriot missiles on the Turkish\Syrian border to assist Turkey if Syria decided to fire its own missiles into Turkey. NATO wouldn't do this if they didn't consider Turkey an ally

 

I am not saying that Erdogan is handling the current protests in the most diplomatic and sensitive way but Turkey needs to be given time to address this internal strife. And unless he starts a brutal campaign  against his own people like Assad I still consider Turkey an important friend of the West in the region

 

[Walsingham]

I think it's a bit naive to suggest we should intervene. Turkey's a NATO member and very long term ally. Plus the man was freely (so far as I know) elected.

 

We're perfectly entitled to think the man's a douche. We can even say so. But changing what's going on is really something which should happen at the Turkish ballot box.

[Drowsy Emperor]

And unless he starts a brutal campaign  against his own people like Assad I still consider Turkey an important friend of the West in the region

 

 

The brutal human rights abuses the Kurdish people suffer in Turkey don't count then? Why doesn't the rest of NATO intervene to free the Kurds from Turkish oppression?

[BruceVC]

 

And unless he starts a brutal campaign  against his own people like Assad I still consider Turkey an important friend of the West in the region

 

 

The brutal human rights abuses the Kurdish people suffer in Turkey don't count then? Why doesn't the rest of NATO intervene to free the Kurds from Turkish oppression?

 

 

The situation around the Kurds in Turkey is complicated and its not as clear as the atrocities that Assad has committed against his own people

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

And unless he starts a brutal campaign  against his own people like Assad I still consider Turkey an important friend of the West in the region

 

 

The brutal human rights abuses the Kurdish people suffer in Turkey don't count then? Why doesn't the rest of NATO intervene to free the Kurds from Turkish oppression?

 

 

The situation around the Kurds in Turkey is complicated and its not as clear as the atrocities that Assad has committed against his own people

 

 

Ah, that's good to know.

[Rostere]

 

And unless he starts a brutal campaign  against his own people like Assad I still consider Turkey an important friend of the West in the region

 

 

The brutal human rights abuses the Kurdish people suffer in Turkey don't count then? Why doesn't the rest of NATO intervene to free the Kurds from Turkish oppression?

 

 

Actually, that situation seems to have started to solve itself recently. I heard the PKK's leader was going to be set free and also, their armed forces was withdrawing from Turkey.

[obyknven]

 

http://youtu.be/4YUZSHB-BQU

Or worse. Some people lost eye because this police firings

 

But this is not too hardcore for pigs. Periodically they just kill protesters by guns.

http://youtu.be/-73D3l_zphY

Edited June 21, 2013 by Gorth
Removed too explicit image. Replaced embedding with links. Watch at own discretion