Update #52: Monk!

[J.E. Sawyer]

Any lore specific reasons behind the existance of monks in the region/world?

 

are they a secluded order or do the go out and proselytize?

 

are they religious or philosophical monks? etc.

 

We'll probably do a lore update for them in the future, but here are the basics:

 

* Centuries ago, one man founded the fighting monastic disciplines.  He was an old warrior who had knocked on death's door many times and had endured numerous periods of captivity and torture.  He discovered a method of mentally focusing on his pain to invoke power from his soul.  When he left the service of his lord, he devoted his time to developing these techniques and teaching them to other warriors (in this way, he can be seen as a sort of cross between Ignatius of Loyola and Suzuki Shōsan).  He believed that mortification of the flesh not only made warriors more powerful, but that it strengthened the souls of its practitioners, making it more likely that their souls would remain intact (i.e., not fragment) when they died.  He advocated fighting with bare fists and without armor to emphasize a fighting monk's personal suffering.

 

* Because the founder of these disciplines was old when he began teaching and died only a few decades later, there are now many different monastic orders.  Some are more secluded, some are mendicant travelers, some are mercenaries.  They all tend to believe, like their founder, that combat is the ideal path for pursuing their particular brand of mortification of the flesh.  Some choose to pursue this in dedicated service, some become mercenaries or assassins, and others devote their lives to dangerous wandering and exploration.  There are other groups that also practice mortification of the flesh, but they are not "fighting" monks.

 

* Monks believe in the fundamental philosophy of mortification of the flesh, but different orders and individuals have wildly different takes on it.  Some monks (and entire orders) are very religious, but the founder was not religious and the discipline does not depend on religion.  Most monks see the disciplines as a method of self-improvement that can co-exist with (or without) religious beliefs.

[Faerunner]

No need to apologize for working on the game, Darren. We'd much rather you keep designing a game you love 

 

The monk sounds like an interesting class. I remember reading a poll a few months ago that asked what people would play once the game came out, and I think monk was one of the least popular, along with rangers and barbarians. These monks sound very cool though, so I imagine its popularity is going to rise above what anyone anticipated. ^^

[sostherope]

I'm also one who thinks the monk class is extremely silly in typical rpg settings like this, that said, I also think this monk with a beserker like ability is pretty strange. It just seems "off". Also don't like the idea of the grimorie slam, surely they can come up with something less dorky and more cool than this. Maybe a "repulsion field" or "repulsion strike" or something magical that makes more sense than a wizard hitting a monster upside the head with his big heavy spell tome. Really, come on.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I am beginning to think the word 'Monk' in of itself is almost pejorative, laden as it is with either Eastern or Western cultural significance...

 

* looks up synonyms for Monk *

 

Recluse / Cenobite / Mendicant / Pilgrim

 

Am rather tickled by Mendicant...

 

... but, personally, I prefer the idea of a 'Kinky Gimp' class with an enchanted Ball-Gag but that's enough about my weekend.

 

They're sort of a cross between traditional D&D monks and groups like the Flagellants.

[Archmage Silver]

Good update, lots of new information.

 

I'm hoping we'll get these kind of updates for the other classes as well.

[Monte Carlo]

@ Sawyer, the monk strikes me as simply a quasi-spiritual martial arts master. Although obviously Christians had warrior-monks, the whole unarmed fighter thing (for me at least) is redolent of the Chinese warrior-monk tradition.

 

Personally, I'm one of the hell-it's-fantasy-don't-like-it-then-don't-play-it crowd, but I find the cultural influences interesting.

 

I can imagine I'll end up solo-ing the game with one for a laugh, after I've exhausted all the Valarian costume combos.

[Zixu]

Sounds pretty awesome. Seems like a Monk will take a lot of micro, and that's nothing but good. My problem with melee characters in the past has been the fact that there's very little to do with one besides click on stuff. New mechanics for them are always more than welcome.

[SerRodrik]

The monks sound a lot more interesting than I originally expected, in all honesty. I hadn't really been interested in playing one before this update, but they sound neat. I'm interested in seeing how the other classes play as well.

 

Also, I continue to love what I've seen of the cultures. They feel very grounded and realistic, while still being unusual in this type of game.

 

I'm also one who thinks the monk class is extremely silly in typical rpg settings like this, that said, I also think this monk with a beserker like ability is pretty strange. It just seems "off". Also don't like the idea of the grimorie slam, surely they can come up with something less dorky and more cool than this. Maybe a "repulsion field" or "repulsion strike" or something magical that makes more sense than a wizard hitting a monster upside the head with his big heavy spell tome. Really, come on.

 

"Repulsion field" and "repulsion strike" both sound way more dorky than grimoire slam. I'm quite fond of the idea of a mage just hauling off and hitting a dude with his big book.

Edited May 8, 2013 by SerRodrik

[Gumbercules]

Hmm, so would staves and certain types of flails or scourges be fast enough to make a good alternative to bare fists? Because then you could create a Warhammer-type battle flagellant.

[Bubu91]

 

Any lore specific reasons behind the existance of monks in the region/world?

 

are they a secluded order or do the go out and proselytize?

 

are they religious or philosophical monks? etc.

 

We'll probably do a lore update for them in the future, but here are the basics:

 

* Centuries ago, one man founded the fighting monastic disciplines.  He was an old warrior who had knocked on death's door many times and had endured numerous periods of captivity and torture.  He discovered a method of mentally focusing on his pain to invoke power from his soul.  When he left the service of his lord, he devoted his time to developing these techniques and teaching them to other warriors (in this way, he can be seen as a sort of cross between Ignatius of Loyola and Suzuki Shōsan).  He believed that mortification of the flesh not only made warriors more powerful, but that it strengthened the souls of its practitioners, making it more likely that their souls would remain intact (i.e., not fragment) when they died.  He advocated fighting with bare fists and without armor to emphasize a fighting monk's personal suffering.

 

* Because the founder of these disciplines was old when he began teaching and died only a few decades later, there are now many different monastic orders.  Some are more secluded, some are mendicant travelers, some are mercenaries.  They all tend to believe, like their founder, that combat is the ideal path for pursuing their particular brand of mortification of the flesh.  Some choose to pursue this in dedicated service, some become mercenaries or assassins, and others devote their lives to dangerous wandering and exploration.  There are other groups that also practice mortification of the flesh, but they are not "fighting" monks.

 

* Monks believe in the fundamental philosophy of mortification of the flesh, but different orders and individuals have wildly different takes on it.  Some monks (and entire orders) are very religious, but the founder was not religious and the discipline does not depend on religion.  Most monks see the disciplines as a method of self-improvement that can co-exist with (or without) religious beliefs.

 

 

ok now I'm sold ... damn you Mr. Sawyer! :D  I disliked the idea at first mostly because I had such a blast playing the D&D monk in Nverewinter Nights 2.

 

Will it be possible to inflict wound on oneself in order to use those special abilities while the tank keeps the aggro of a mob?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Bubu91

[J.E. Sawyer]

PE flails are also fast melee weapons and would be a great alternative to bare fists.

[GrayAngel]

Great update keep the good work in;)

I have only one request can next update be about paladins from the time i play ID 1 this is mine favored class of character in the game. Other then that i want to tell that from what i see in the game mechanic it will be your as i like.

PS. If you need more time to make the game just give as head up at least i give you(Obsidian) as much time that you need to make a game no more rush like the KOTOR 2( i know that Lucas Arts LA have you make it so quick so no sweat;))

PS2. I want to thanks you all(Obsidian) for the hard work i know that i as a someone that pleaded i'm real happy from want i see and one more thing is you dont feel that romance you make is good then dont make any the Safiya was great romance almost as good as Viconia and that saying something.

PS3. Sorry for mine bad english i'm from Poland and i could only pleaded 165$ it almost month pay in mine country but it was worth is from want i see right now. 

[Greensleeve]

@Sawyer: Fantastic background for the monks. Really, really looking forward to seeing more lore about this world and it's classes, races, etc. Seems as though you guys are doing an absolutely stunning job. 

 

I'm getting really pumped at seeing how the soul mechanic and souls in general really permeate everything. Really like that. 

[Messier-31]

As I already said in my other post (over hya http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63248-characters-from-games-that-you-hate-and-dont-whanna-see-in-pe-or-even-be-inspired/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1305834) I think monks are not a good medieval-RPG material, but still a good update to read. I love the culture concept! Vailian Republics reminds me of the Tilea and Estalia regions of the Old World from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Being a huge fan of that setting, seeing more resemblences makes me even more excited. More classes comin' soon by any chance? Gimme moar, puah-leez.

[SunBroSolaire]

Nice... Shunryu Suzuki's 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' was one of the most important books I've ever read. Great to see some zen Buddhist influence in the philosophy. 

[Ineth]

I actually don't mind the monk anymore. Thank you for listening to the fans on this.

 

What do you mean?

I don't see any deviation from what they've said about the Monk class all along.

[Greensleeve]

As I already said in my other post (over hya http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63248-characters-from-games-that-you-hate-and-dont-whanna-see-in-pe-or-even-be-inspired/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1305834) I think monks are not a good medieval-RPG material, but still a good update to read. I love the culture concept! Vailian Republics reminds me of the Tilea and Estalia regions of the Old World from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Being a huge fan of that setting, seeing more resemblences makes me even more excited. More classes comin' soon by any chance? Gimme moar, puah-leez.

 

Might be true that monks aren't very good material for medieval RPGs, but this isn't really a medieval RPG. Nor were the IE games. They took place in a world with high Middle Ages levels of technology, but other than that... They weren't really medieval RPGs. These are fantasy RPGs. If developers just make them into "psudo-medieval Europe, with magic", then yes, you're right. But if developers do that, they're seriously missing out on what the genre can do. So I think that monks don't fit into the setting is a very, very weak objection. 

Edited May 8, 2013 by Greensleeve

[Scottfree6000]

Hey Josh

 

I enjoy reading the monk class update and the culture clothes difference was awesome thanks for the plus

 

One question: will there be fist weapons available the monk and rogues?

 

again thanks to you and your companions at Obsidian.

[Agremont]

Good update. I'm liking the cultural concepts overall. The monk, well I've never been a fan of monks. We'll see how it plays out in-game.

 

 

The Culture Concept is OK. I also noticed it reflects the currently popular view that women have no breasts (beacuse if they did, it would be sexist). Good job.

 

I realize you're probably being a bit funny about it but they clearly have breasts. Most womens breasts aren't as big as computer games will have you believe.

 

Edit: All the characters in the concept are identical too, probably to speed up the design process. I don't think it means all characters will necessarily look exactly the same when it comes to body types in-game.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Agremont

[Scottfree6000]

PE flails are also fast melee weapons and would be a great alternative to bare fists.

Never mind that question

 

Thx

[Lephys]

I was a bit confused about the balance of the armor thing at first. But, it makes more sense now, I think.

 

It's not so much that your Monk becomes a WORSE Monk when he's in heavy armor. It's just that a factor changes.

 

For example, if you send him in to fight a group of 5 Goblins, unarmored, maybe he accrues Wounds very quickly, but is receiving so much incoming damage that he almost-immediately fills his Wounds "bucket" and begins taking full damage. Basically, it's great that he's able to use his abilities so quickly, but he might not be capable of living through the onslaught to use them, because of so much incoming damage. So with Mr. Unarmored Monk, you might have to only have him take on like 2 or 3 Goblins at a time, max, and/or move him around a lot/micromanage him just to keep him alive and effective.

 

BUT, if you give him heavy armor, he can stand up to the group of 5 more easily now, even though his Wounds don't accumulate as quickly. Etc.

 

Basically, IF you run into a situation where you need to fight off larger groups, or more individually-powerful foes, the armor is actually more beneficial than the Wounds speed. Or if that's just the style you'd like to play (you want your Monk to dash around the frontlines, skirmishing with multiple enemies at a time, rather than taking them on 1-or-2 at a time, etc.). If I'm not mistaken.

 

My question is this:

Just how integral is their Wounds pool on their overall effectiveness? I mean, equipment aside (purely Monk character capabilities), do they have the ability to specialize more in non-Wounds abilities/skills if they're going to wear armor? Do they HAVE non-Wounds abilities?

 

That's my only other concern: If they basically have to take damage to build up "mana" for their abilities, then they always go into combat less effective, whereas other classes are the reverse (Wizard goes into combat, tosses 7 spells out, and now is out of spells). I understand it can be balanced, but, I was just curious if everything hinged upon Wounds with them, or not, and what kind of specialization we'll be able to do with that mechanic.

 

I mean, if you WANTED to make a heavy-armor Monk, could you specialize a Monk in a simply-different manner for the simple fact that you want to play a heavy-armor Monk (since we can), or will you always be a quantifiable 30% worse than an un-armored Monk? (Example number). I guess what I mean is... if you reach level 15, are all your choices going to consist of abilities that rock, but require more and more Wounds? Because, it seems like, if you get up to high-level Monk abilities that are the core of the Monk's effectiveness progression, and you need 7 Wounds to use them instead of 2 or 3, and your armor slows the accumulation of Wounds across the board, then you're simply going to become less-effective as you go. You know, "Oh great... now I need to take 700 damage before I can use an effective ability instead of the 200 I had to take before, yet I still take damage at the same rate because of this armor I'm supposed to be able to feasibly use in some way."

 

So, yeah... TL;DR --- Will all of a Monk's effectiveness be dependent upon the accumulation of more and more Wounds as they progress? Or will parts of their potential effectiveness (specialization potential) not involve the speedy accumulation of Wounds and/or the accumulation of greater and greater amounts of Wounds?

[Greensleeve]

-snip-

 

Considering that the Monk will have passive abilities that are either always on (I presume) or on as long as the Monk as a Wound, I'd say that it'd be viable and actually doable to do a heavy armour Monk. Though I'd guess that a light armour Monk might be a better compromise. 

 

The rest really requires a dev to answer. 

[Lephys]

Considering that the Monk will have passive abilities that are either always on (I presume) or on as long as the Monk as a Wound, I'd say that it'd be viable and actually doable to do a heavy armour Monk. Though I'd guess that a light armour Monk might be a better compromise. 

 

The rest really requires a dev to answer. 

 

This is true. I hadn't really thought of that, so thanks. However, my question still stands, it would seem, as the un-armored Monk (or less-armored) ALSO gets the very same passive benefits while he has Wounds.

 

But, that does give me a more specific potentiality. That would be a good form of specialization; beefing up the passive abilities in lieu of the active ones (e.g. you put points into Turning Wheel [passive fire damage to melee attacks while you have Wounds] to increase the damage from +2 to +5 INSTEAD OF putting points into... I dunno... Spiffy Strike, which uses 1 Wound to deal 20 damage, so it stays at 20 instead of going up to 25).

 

I don't know that we spend points like that on active abilities to improve them, rather than their simply increasing in effectiveness as  the character progresses (or both, maybe?). But, anywho, that's getting off-subject slightly.

 

If Josh, perhaps, gets the chance (I know they're all quite busy at the moment, making a game and all, heh), I'd just be curious to know, generally, how decisions such as Heavy Armor or un-armored will translate into character progression throughout the game with a Monk.

[Nonek]

I wonder if a monk, keen to strengthen his soul, would take part in gladiatorial contests? Can they use spiked gauntlets and other fist enhancements, like the greek pankration martial art, from the classical era.

[Shaboomm]

Thanks for the update guys!! This is great, I can't even wait, I want to play it!