Eternity Artists: Dragons should not (all) be Dragons any more!

[mstark]

^this.

 

I hope dragons won't be exchanged for something different just in order to be different. That said, some of the dragon concepts posted in this thread are just awesome. Hopefully, "The World" will be filled to the brim with huge, wickedly dangerous beasts that, as long as you don't walk straight into their lair, couldn't care less about the goings and comings of mere humanoids.

[Giantevilhead]

I'm more concerned with how they're written. The whole "wise and powerful but also petulant and emotional" personality that so many dragons in fiction have is getting pretty annoying.

[JFSOCC]

I'm more concerned with how they're written. The whole "wise and powerful but also petulant and emotional" personality that so many dragons in fiction have is getting pretty annoying.

It seems to me that's established lore. It's like saying "I love popes, but they're usually just a little too religious for me"

[Giantevilhead]

There were plenty of popes who weren't very religious.

 

Also, dragons aren't real. There's already plenty of variations. It just happens that the intelligent dragons tend to follow the same old cliches.

[FlintlockJazz]

I say include dragons, even make them look like the archetype dragon but drop the whole lizard thing. Not everything that has scales is reptillian, and dragons are clearly portrayed as warm-blooded these days.

 

I say make them their own class (as in biology class like mammals and reptiles) that is perhaps defined as innately magical (with wyverns perhaps portrayed as apes are to humans perhaps, and other monstrously magical races being grouped in with them like how cats, dogs and humans are all grouped together as mammals). This would make more sense to me and divorces them from being big lizards.

 

If they really want to make them different looking, they could give them manes! Not a mane like a lion but more like a horse's mane perhaps?

[FlintlockJazz]

Also I'd like to see dragons get upset when they see people wearing dragonskin armour. I want them to react like a human would if they saw you wearing humanskin armour, and for the game to raise the question of ethics of wearing a sapient creature's skin as armour (who truly is the monster, the bigass creature who breathes fire or the guy wearing the skin of people?)

[TrashMan]

You mean the same fire-resistant skin that will save you from being cooked to a crisp?

 

Yeah, I kinda have a hard time dumping "survival" under "evil monster".

 

the other question is - how intelligent we are talking about with dragons? And would dragons even care?

[Sensuki]

Not all dragons are evil. I liked how Dragons were handled in The Witcher 2 actually.

[FlintlockJazz]

Well I was talking about fully sapient dragons otherwise it would be no different from wearing any other animal so at least as smart as a human.

 

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

Edited May 7, 2013 by FlintlockJazz

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

Yes, because then my "evil" PCs would have a valid reason for butchering elves other than they suck.

[Gfted1]

Just like the Human Flesh +5 armor in BG2.

[TrashMan]

 

 

Well I was talking about fully sapient dragons otherwise it would be no different from wearing any other animal so at least as smart as a human.

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

 

 

And if they are as smart as cows?

Leatehr armor is fine but dragon scale is not? Because dragons are more inteligent (maybe, maybe not)?

 

Kinda odd to say "If you're inteligence score is greater than 5, it's ok to skin you. Otherwise it's not"

[Randomthom]

I love seeing dragons but I'd like to see a bit more intelligence from them (if they're being written as intelligent). Have them try to run (& fly) away if they are engaged in a combat they think they might lose. Maybe they could then reappear if you try to rest outdoors, catch you with your greaves down

 

Truly though, as others have pointed out, dragon fatigue has set in for many of us but there are also many (more?) who would love to see them. Perhaps keep them to encounters like Firkraag, optional. I'd be disappointed if there isn't one in the multi-level dungeon in some capacity.

 

Draco-liches are cool too

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Well I was talking about fully sapient dragons otherwise it would be no different from wearing any other animal so at least as smart as a human.

 

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

 

And if they are as smart as cows?

Leatehr armor is fine but dragon scale is not? Because dragons are more inteligent (maybe, maybe not)?

 

Kinda odd to say "If you're inteligence score is greater than 5, it's ok to skin you. Otherwise it's not"

Thats how it works in real life. We skin animals because they are not considered sapient but get upset if someone skins a person. In a world in which multiple sapient species coexist then skinning one another would probably not go down well. Again, why is skinning a sapient dragon often considered okay but not elves in most settings? Is it possibly because elves look like us while dragons do not? I would like to see some sort of reaction from dragons on this, a questioning of the morality of it.

 

If a society had no qualms with skinning sapient dragons then dragons, as a sapient species with an interest in self preservation, would likely consider said society as evil and fear being hunted down and flayed for profit. I mean, would you trust being around someone who has no qualms skinning and wearing you?

[FlintlockJazz]

 

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

Yes, because then my "evil" PCs would have a valid reason for butchering elves other than they suck.

Ah but if your characters are "evil" then you don't want it to be fine because then they get to be vicious, scary to others in their elf-armour and those pesky good guys will be at a disadvantage when fighting you because they won't wear elf-armour! Edited May 8, 2013 by FlintlockJazz

[Aldereth]

The Longest Journey (an old adventure game) offer a rather mystical take on dragon.   They are almost god like being and have become stuff of myth and legend.  The giant lizard appearance was almost never seen in the world but is believe to be their "native form" but the main character of the game who is clearly human is a daughter of a dragon which make her a draic kin as well.   Check out this link:

 

http://tlj.wikia.com/wiki/Draic_Kin

[Lephys]

 

Well I was talking about fully sapient dragons otherwise it would be no different from wearing any other animal so at least as smart as a human.

 

If elven skin bestowed protection against magic would it be fine to skin dead elves and wear their skin as armour? Or would it be expected to find other forms of protection that doesn't involve skinning people instead?

 

 

And if they are as smart as cows?

Leatehr armor is fine but dragon scale is not? Because dragons are more inteligent (maybe, maybe not)?

 

Kinda odd to say "If you're inteligence score is greater than 5, it's ok to skin you. Otherwise it's not"

 

 

I think you might have that backwards. I thought he was saying that, while cows (being of low Intelligence) don't react to your wearing leather, smarter things (like sapient dragons, being of high Intelligence) would, you would think, react to the fact that you're wearing their kin's hide on your body.

 

Maybe it was just a typo on your part? Maybe you meant to say "Less than 5"? *shrug*

[TrashMan]

Yes I did.

 

Either way is - the question was would dragons react?

It's not a given that dragon are highly inteligent, and even then, it's not a given they would care.

[FlintlockJazz]

Yes I did.

 

Either way is - the question was would dragons react?

It's not a given that dragon are highly inteligent, and even then, it's not a given they would care.

Which is why I was using the caveat sapient, if they are not sapient then it wouldn't matter since it would be just like cows. If a sapient species didn't care that people would want to wear your skin as armour then it shows a lack of self preservation on their part. If they don't care then there would have to be a reason as it implies lack of rational though, and humans themselves might have issues with wearing something that they had just been talking to five minutes before.

 

Take the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, they have sapient talking animals that want to be eaten and will talk to you while being ate, but thats because they were engineered that way, and some people found it to be quite horrifying.

 

Essentially if dragons are sapient then I think it will be a missed opportunity to ignore this potential ingame debate like most other games do. I think it could bring more to the game to have such things brought up than just ignoring it as always.

[TrashMan]

Cows are sapient. They just apprently don't give a damn. Except when they do. There have been some weird cow stories.

 

Just saying that being intelligent and caring for the death of someone else - even if that someone is your species - are not one and the same.

Hell, there are species where it's completely normal to kill eachoter, or to kil the young, or to devour your mate, etc...

[spudud]

Cows are sapient. They just apprently don't give a damn. Except when they do. There have been some weird cow stories.

 

Just saying that being intelligent and caring for the death of someone else - even if that someone is your species - are not one and the same.

Hell, there are species where it's completely normal to kill eachoter, or to kil the young, or to devour your mate, etc...

 

You're confusing sapient with sentient. The only non-fantasy sapient species is humans, hence the name homo sapiens.

 

I guess it would depend on how the dragons are done in the game if they're done at all. Maybe they have different moral taboos than humans, or maybe are very survival of the fittest species and would't care for a dragon weak enough to be killed by a lowly human/elf/dwarf or w/e. It would be cool, if they have different factions in the dragon society, each taking a different stance on various issues.

Edited May 9, 2013 by spudud

[Maexi]

I think a little bit of variation among the dragons wouldn't hurt ... But imo you should still be able to recognize them without reading a name plate or a kodex entry. Wouldn't like a situation where I'm all like "Ooooh, so that gigantic fire breathing squid was a dragon!" But maybe that's just me

[Aldereth]

I think a little bit of variation among the dragons wouldn't hurt ... But imo you should still be able to recognize them without reading a name plate or a kodex entry. Wouldn't like a situation where I'm all like "Ooooh, so that gigantic fire breathing squid was a dragon!" But maybe that's just me

I think the fire breathing giant squidlike dragon are called Reapers and they turn up every 50 millennium to clean house

[Lephys]

Cows are sapient. They just apprently don't give a damn. Except when they do. There have been some weird cow stories.

 

Just saying that being intelligent and caring for the death of someone else - even if that someone is your species - are not one and the same.

Hell, there are species where it's completely normal to kill eachoter, or to kil the young, or to devour your mate, etc...

As spudud said, you seem to have "sapient" and "sentient" confused.

 

But, all Flintlock is saying is that, if you walk through a field wearing leather, a cow (whatever word you want to describe it with) is in no way going to stop chewing its cud when it looks upon you, in alarm, and think "Wait a minute... that leather armor is made from the SKIN OF MY KIN!", then charge your ass in a fury because of that deduction.

 

However, a dragon (which is often depicted as intelligent and sapient) COULD do so (if it were depicted as intelligent and sapient.)

 

Which is true. You'd think a speaking, pondering dragon would have such... "human" reactions to things, when other animals (such as cows) would not.

[FlintlockJazz]

As spudud and Lephys have said sapience is not sentience and is believed to be only held by humans. A cow can be aware of its own existence but lacks the capability for abstract thought that sapience brings. A cow would not understand that the leather armour you are wearing is the skin of its kin nor would it understand that staying in that field will eventually lead to it being taken to a slaughterhouse and killed even if it sees other cows being taken and not coming back, but kill a member of its herd in front of it and it will realise its life is in danger and get upset.

 

Most animals have a sense of self preservation in order for the species to survive, otherwise they would die off when threatened with one that does. Humanity's success comes from its ability to deduce possibilities that they have not seen. Until a cow sees a two-legged kill another cow with that axe thing it does not understand that an axe can be used to kill it, while a human can look at a rhino for the first time and realise that not only could the horn be used to skewer him but that if he was to somehow break it off he could use it himself to kill his neighbour Ugg and take his woman, or that the guy carrying a knife might be up to trouble. Apes can be taught tool use beyond their normal capabilities, but only if they are shown it, humans can work out new uses for themselves.

 

EDIT: In short, humans can work out consequences and connect the dots, a cow cannot unless it sees it and even then it only makes the link if it the consequence occurs immediately.

Edited May 10, 2013 by FlintlockJazz