What should a female breastplate really look like

[Lephys]

Unlike Isabella Tali's character has nothing to do with her sexuality. Well, except for that awful "Tee-hee Imma Virgin" crap from Mass Effect 2.

In her defense, one would think it normal for a race of immune-system-wrecked lifeforms to lead pretty sparse love-lives, and people are generally timid about things with which they are unfamiliar. Especially when you like your own commander and feel awkward about THAT on top of it. Just because cliche = "tee-hee, I'm a virgin" doesn't mean that "tee-hee, I'm a virgin" always = cliche.

[Micamo]

Unlike Isabella Tali's character has nothing to do with her sexuality. Well, except for that awful "Tee-hee Imma Virgin" crap from Mass Effect 2.

In her defense, one would think it normal for a race of immune-system-wrecked lifeforms to lead pretty sparse love-lives, and people are generally timid about things with which they are unfamiliar. Especially when you like your own commander and feel awkward about THAT on top of it. Just because cliche = "tee-hee, I'm a virgin" doesn't mean that "tee-hee, I'm a virgin" always = cliche.

 

I haven't played through ME2 with MaleShep yet, so maybe that conversation with him is different. With FemShep though, her reveal of "I've never shared my suit with anyone before" comes off as really casual, followed by a winking "I'd share my suit with you anytime, Shepard." Tali *is* the type of person who would be timid about that, so this feels really out of character, and even more so because you can't romance Tali as FemShep, so why would Tali say something like that to someone she's not even interested in? My interpretation of it was that this conversation was intended to sexually tease the player, which is why I was so disgusted by it.

[Lephys]

^ Yeah, with MaleShep, there's a CRAPTON of dialogue buildup and trust and whatnot before she even expresses any kind of romantic interest. And, even then, it's all awkward, like she feels silly about it. She FINALLY brings up simply the idea of it, as long as you keep expressing interest in her (which, MaleShep's lines are somewhat lacking a lot, haha. I think FemShep got all the attention in development, ). Even when you get to "the scene," she's still all like "I... I dunno, maybe this is silly," and is noticeably EXTREMELY nervous. You kind of have to re-assure her, at which point she sort of throws inhibition to the wind and pounces, as if she knew if she didn't do that she'd just sit there stammering the whole time and it would never happen. Of course, that's the same time she pulls her mask off and tosses it across the room. So... for a Quarian, it's kind of all-or-nothing at that point, anyway, haha.

 

If you can't romance her as Femshep, and she says that, then that is pretty weird. Of course, sharing suits/environments with someone is also a huge form of trust for Quarians, so maybe it was just poorly written to come across as sexually suggestive rather than merely Quarian culture? I'm not sure. We'd have to ask the Bioware team. I could decide better if I'd played through as Femshep. But, yeah, they hate having to be in their enviro-suits all the time, anyway, and long to experience plenty of things other than sex with other individuals. So, they actually "share suits" (since all the Quarians have suits to share), even if that sometimes means that they simply de-suit (or break suit containment) in the same room/space/environment so that they can spend some suit-free time together, not necessarily getting it on. So, it could've been that she was trying to tell Femshep "I trust you so much and value your friendship to the point of going through the trouble of adjusting to the environment beyond my suit just so we can talk face to face and do awesome, suit-free things together! 8D." *shrug*

 

Annnnnnywho. We're getting a bit off-topic. I apologize for that, as I kind of grabbed the wheel and veered us off the road toward some context.

 

I'm very much with you on the visual storytelling thing. That's part of what goes into character design. Obviously you want to avoid huge cliches, but the overly haughty character should visually convey haughtiness. The careful, disciplined character should visually convey care and discipline. And, like you said, you can always through contrasting flaws in there. Like, maybe the careful disciplined character is always unkempt, or the overly haughty character wears some really simple piece of jewelry because of who it belonged to. Etc.

[Woldan]

- She's a female with the proportions of a human supermodel (besides, you know, the deformed hands and feet).

[Cynical OT-comment]

Supermodel you say? Have you seen her exaggerated wide hips? I mean with hips like that she could give birth to fully grown ogres or compact cars, not just babies.    [/Cynical OT-comment]

[TrashMan]

 

 

What's important to me with character design (of EITHER gender) is visual storytelling: I should be able to look at the character, the way they carry themselves, and be able to tell something about them. The appearance should match the character's personality. Either that, or ironically clash with the character's personality, which is just visual storytelling of a different sort.

 

Visual storytelling?

 

Bah. I reject the notion that characters clothing should reveal the deepest depths of his/her personality.

Especially when he's wearing clothes for practical reasons.

 

Conversely, I never really liked Isabella as a character.

[Augusta Corvina]

How about this?

 

 

 

For a dude it would look alright/decent, but for a woman it looks atrocious in my opinion since it basically makes a female wearer look indistinguishable from a dude and I'd just pick a vastly inferior armour piece instead if it looked better.

[Merlkir]

Yeah yeah, that's a really really stupid argument repeated over and over. You want female armours to look sexy, pretty, or "good"? Watch some porn. Seriously, there's fantasy DnD porn. Jeez. 

[BruceVC]

Yeah yeah, that's a really really stupid argument repeated over and over. You want female armours to look sexy, pretty, or "good"? Watch some porn. Seriously, there's fantasy DnD porn. Jeez. 

 

 

Nah, I fail to see how wanting my females characters to look aesthetically pleasing is silly or unreasonable. I would argue you are in the minority in wanting ladies in PE to look like tin cans?

[PrimeJunta]

There are plenty of examples of functional armor that's extremely pleasing aesthetically in this and the Armor Designs thread.

[Elerond]

"When every female character is “sexy” by default, do you find that it lessens the effect/allure of the characters whose sexual appeal devs actually try to emphasize for narrative reasons?"

-some internet person

[Merlkir]

 

Yeah yeah, that's a really really stupid argument repeated over and over. You want female armours to look sexy, pretty, or "good"? Watch some porn. Seriously, there's fantasy DnD porn. Jeez. 

 

 

Nah, I fail to see how wanting my females characters to look aesthetically pleasing is silly or unreasonable. I would argue you are in the minority in wanting ladies in PE to look like tin cans?

 

 

There's a big difference between "aesthetically pleasing" and "sexy". You are fine with guy armours looking like "tin cans", those don't have to be "aesthetically pleasing"?

 

I paint armour for a living, I know what makes a kickass, or even good looking armour design. Armours in a game for men and women can look badass without being sexy, certainly what has been presented here is in no way a "tin can".

 

I feel silly for even arguing with you, I previously played a devil's advocate for the boobplate, because I can imagine that being used for a purpose that makes sense for a female character in a specific setting. But no, just no. Showing skin, cleavage, midriff, any kind of stupid nonsense like that is not aesthetically pleasing. Go jerk off to "Pirates", I will be a selfish bastard and say I don't want your kind of bullpoo in PE.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Merlkir

[TrashMan]

Armor isn't about a fashion statement or seduction.

It's about protection.

 

 

Just you wait.

Soon we will have people arguing that woman in tanks have to drive pink tanks. Perferably with a boob-shaped front bumper.

Edited May 23, 2013 by TrashMan

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yeah yeah, that's a really really stupid argument repeated over and over. You want female armours to look sexy, pretty, or "good"? Watch some porn. Seriously, there's fantasy DnD porn. Jeez. 

 

 

Nah, I fail to see how wanting my females characters to look aesthetically pleasing is silly or unreasonable. I would argue you are in the minority in wanting ladies in PE to look like tin cans?

 

 

There's a big difference between "aesthetically pleasing" and "sexy". You are fine with guy armours looking like "tin cans", those don't have to be "aesthetically pleasing"?

 

I paint armour for a living, I know what makes a kickass, or even good looking armour design. Armours in a game for men and women can look badass without being sexy, certainly what has been presented here is in no way a "tin can".

 

I feel silly for even arguing with you, I previously played a devil's advocate for the boobplate, because I can imagine that being used for a purpose that makes sense for a female character in a specific setting. But no, just no. Showing skin, cleavage, midriff, any kind of stupid nonsense like that is not aesthetically pleasing. Go jerk off to "Pirates", I will be a selfish bastard and say I don't want your kind of bullpoo in PE.

 

 

 

Wow you seem to be in a bad mood today Merlkir but its good to vent. Do you feel better about your life now?

 

Now back to the armour discussion, I admit I am not an expert in Medieval and Fantasy armour. I am part of that group thats plays and purchases PC games for entertainment purposes, and I love RPG. I may not know a lot but I do know what most  fans like and want in a game  and once again you are in the minority..sorry buddy. This is something you will have to deal with  You should read the BSN forums if you disagree with me.

 

PE will have its own interpretation of chainmail bikini's for female characters. And the reason for this is that Obsidian understands the importance of the aesthetic experience

[marelooke]

Armor isn't about a fashion statement or seduction.

It's about protection.

 

 

Just you wait.

Soon we will have people arguing that woman in tanks have to drive pink tanks. Perferably with a boob-shaped front bumper.

 

BRB going off to troll the World of Tanks forums.

[Elerond]

Concept art from movie Thor. Costume as whole has it problems, but breast plate looks like that its designer is at least given some though for its main purpose (protection), any thoughts?

[BruceVC]

Concept art from movie Thor. Costume as whole has it problems, but breast plate looks like that its designer is at least given some though for its main purpose (protection), any thoughts?

 

 

Its not bad and seems practical, nice one

[PrimeJunta]

Just you wait.

Soon we will have people arguing that woman in tanks have to drive pink tanks. Perferably with a boob-shaped front bumper.

Wel-l-l, since men drive tanks with that big phallus pointing up and out...

 

(Inb4 anyone brings up Tank Girl...)

[JFSOCC]

Armor isn't about a fashion statement or seduction.

It's about protection.

 

 

Just you wait.

Soon we will have people arguing that woman in tanks have to drive pink tanks. Perferably with a boob-shaped front bumper.

Sure it's about protection, but if men have codpieces on their armour, to you know, show their manhood, why is it so strange to think women wouldn't want to show off their... womanhood?

 

I mean, not all women would, just like not all men would want codpieces, but they did exist you know.

 

so "why not both" have protection, while also having some feminine influences built in your armour. (again, not all armour, but some)

[Micamo]

Visual storytelling?

 

Bah. I reject the notion that characters clothing should reveal the deepest depths of his/her personality.

Especially when he's wearing clothes for practical reasons.

 

Conversely, I never really liked Isabella as a character.

Well, let me respond to this with an analogy.

 

Let's say you're designing a game. You say "Okay, in the real world there's no sweeping orchestral soundtracks everywhere you go. So in this game we're not going to have any music at all, just the character voices and sound effects."

 

Now, this is a valid artistic choice to make. In the right game, this could even be a very effective choice: LIMBO has a "soundtrack" that's essentially different loops of random static for each area. It builds a very unsettling, uncanny atmosphere, as well as making the silhouette-only backgrounds feel bleak and lifeless compared to the exaggerated movements of the characters.

 

However it's definitely not an effective choice for every game. Music is a powerful tool for creating ambience and tone. The right music can make a scene or level really powerful and memorable. And the wrong music can completely ruin it. If you decide to ignore music you're effectively denying yourself an entire dimension in which your game can be great. It's not something that should be done lightly.

 

 

Character design is the same way: A striking, effective design can be the difference between your character being remembered as "The Nameless One" and being remembered as "30-something white male protagonist #462854791." There's a place for making everyone look like generic clones but fantasy RPGs probably aren't it.

 

EDIT: Might as well weigh in my opinion on the bikini armor "debate." If the player wants to run around wearing three band-aids and a smile, I say let them. Non-player characters should for the most part be wearing reasonable clothing.

 

Also, you know something Dragon Age did I really liked? If you run around naked NPCs will actually comment on it. "Look at the fool in his underpants!"

Edited May 23, 2013 by Micamo

[Woldan]

Sure it's about protection, but if men have codpieces on their armour, to you know, show their manhood, why is it so strange to think women wouldn't want to show off their... womanhood?

Because codpieces don't weaken the integrity and stability of the breast plate like boob armor does. Weakening armor just for style and fashion is strange.

[PrimeJunta]

You could always add papier maché boobs on top of the plate!

[marelooke]

Concept art from movie Thor. Costume as whole has it problems, but breast plate looks like that its designer is at least given some though for its main purpose (protection), any thoughts?

 

Just need to point out the heels. Pet peeve of mine, sorry. Other than that it looks good to me.

[Merlkir]

 

Sure it's about protection, but if men have codpieces on their armour, to you know, show their manhood, why is it so strange to think women wouldn't want to show off their... womanhood?

Because codpieces don't weaken the integrity and stability of the breast plate like boob armor does. Weakening armor just for style and fashion is strange.

 

Actually, they're kind of the exact same thing, except in your groin. Boob plate is not all evil, read my blog post about it.

[TrashMan]

Well, let me respond to this with an analogy.

 

Let's say you're designing a game. You say "Okay, in the real world there's no sweeping orchestral soundtracks everywhere you go. So in this game we're not going to have any music at all, just the character voices and sound effects."

 

I would say that your analogy doesn't work.

 

Atmospheric music is something that exists outside of the setting and serves no other purpose other than atmosphere.

Clothing isn't.

 

 

 

Character design is the same way:

 

Not really

 

 

A striking, effective design can be the difference between your character being remembered as "The Nameless One" and being remembered as "30-something white male protagonist #462854791." There's a place for making everyone look like generic clones but fantasy RPGs probably aren't it.

 

Memorable and good are not the same thing, altough they often are.

Also the definition of what makes someone a clone is largely subjective. Because The Nameless One looks like a zombie to me...in other words, a clone.

If you are really counting on character appeareonce - or even worse, clothing - to make a character appealing, you're doing it wrong.

[TrashMan]

 

 

Sure it's about protection, but if men have codpieces on their armour, to you know, show their manhood, why is it so strange to think women wouldn't want to show off their... womanhood?

 

Codpieces are for show. Empty space - and only several armors that mostly weren't for battle had them.

In other words, if you take a blow to the codpiece, you'll likely be OK.

 

They were silly aditions to the armor.

I don't mind chainmail bikinies, boobplates OR gigonormeous codpieces in the game....however I will mind if they don't suck in the protection category.