What should a female breastplate really look like

[TrashMan]

Yes, full plate armor worn by an "adventurer" is one of the most ridiculous things we see in fantasy games (and literature), and it's rarely questioned. Plate armor is an armor of war, and a traveller would never use one just for occasional protection.

 

 

It's not that heavy you know.

It weigs less that most traveling backpacks I'm seeing some hikers use. And they walk from country to country.

But if you are out travling, you probably wouldn't be going everywhere on foot either. If you can afford plate, you can afford a horse.

 

Which is also another reason why in RL there are no accoutns of adventurer in plate.

a) there is no RL equalent to adventurers

b) if you can afford plate, you are rich allready, so you wouldn't bother trudging trough the woods in the first place

 

 

In fact, the same is true of some weapons. A large two-handed sword, for example, is something you only see in battle, no one carries one with him at all times. There's no way you can carry one with you comfortably yet be able to draw it quickly. And what about shields? Do you really carry one in your hand at all times? And if you strap it to your back, how do you carry all the other stuff you need to carry with you: bedroll, food, some extra clothes..?

 

Other way around. A Zweihander was probably more usefull as a personal weapon than it was in military formations. You need some room if you want to swing it. There's got to be a reason why it was a preferred weapon fo many bodyguard and banner guards.

 

Also, you carry a shield over the backpack. It has a long strap.

Edited April 13, 2013 by TrashMan

[Caerdon]

 

 

Yes, full plate armor worn by an "adventurer" is one of the most ridiculous things we see in fantasy games (and literature), and it's rarely questioned. Plate armor is an armor of war, and a traveller would never use one just for occasional protection.

It's not that heavy you know.

It weigs less that most traveling backpacks I'm seeing some hikers use. And they walk from country to country.

But if you are out travling, you probably wouldn't be going everywhere on foot either. If you can afford plate, you can afford a horse.

 

Which is also another reason why in RL there are no accoutns of adventurer in plate.

a) there is no RL equalent to adventurers

b) if you can afford plate, you are rich allready, so you wouldn't bother trudging trough the woods in the first place

In fact, the same is true of some weapons. A large two-handed sword, for example, is something you only see in battle, no one carries one with him at all times. There's no way you can carry one with you comfortably yet be able to draw it quickly. And what about shields? Do you really carry one in your hand at all times? And if you strap it to your back, how do you carry all the other stuff you need to carry with you: bedroll, food, some extra clothes..?

Other way around. A Zweihander was probably more usefull as a personal weapon than it was in military formations. You need some room if you want to swing it. There's got to be a reason why it was a preferred weapon fo many bodyguard and banner guards.

 

Also, you carry a shield over the backpack. It has a long strap.

 

 

A)

 

I never said plate armor is heavy. I know it's not nearly as heavy or cumbersome as many people think. And it distributes weight quite well across the whole body.

 

Still, there are many reasons why an adventurer wouldn't want to wear one. For example:

- you need both help and time to put it on and take it off (just for taking a leak...)

- it requires a lot of maintenance (it's not made of stainless steel)

- extremely inconvenient in harsh weather conditions

 

In other words: it's exceedingly inconvenient. You wear one when it's your job to wear one or when you expect you're going to need it. Adventurers - as I understand the word - are not in constant, imminent danger. The vast majority of their time is spend far from a battle.

 

B)

 

Longsword evolved with plate armor when shield became less necessary and you needed the force of two hands to penetrate the opponent's armor (yeah, I'm simplyfying things, but that's the gist of it). In later times, Zweihänder was used in battle by Landsknechte and - yes - bodyguards and banner guards. Two-handed Claymore was used in the constant battling of the clans.

 

None of those weapons are something an adventurer would carry with him for personal defense. They didn't generally even have scabbards - they're too big to be worn. You can wrap it in a cloth and add a strap for transport, but then you aren't exactly ready to use it. Like plate armor, they are something you have with you if it's your job to have a weapon constantly at hand or you know you're marching into battle.

 

--

 

I was probably a little unclear in my original post. I didn't mean that an adventurer would never use plate armor or a two-handed sword. They might do that when they know they're entering an actual battle - just not when "adventuring".

 

Of course, we all probably have a slightly different idea of what an "adventurer" really is - as you mentieoned, there is not real-life equivalent. Mine is mostly based on fantasy novels.

[Sigwald]

 

Another point Obsidian brought up was that, if you've got a party of 6 warriors wearing full plate, and it all looks the same, how do you tell, at a glance, your female party members from your male party members?

 

Why is that even necessary? Why is gender such a defining trait that it's super important to tell a man from a woman at a glance? Why is it OK that you can't immediately tell two male party members from each other, yet confusing a man with a woman must never, ever happen - even if it would happen in real life?

Brienne of Tarth approve this reply :

 

 

talking about women in breasplate looking like men

 

SPOILERS GAME OF THRONES END OF SEASON 2/BOOK 2

 

walking all day with its armor

 

[LadyCrimson]

I think Caerdon actually raises a good point. In this sort of party based game I don't really see why some seem so concerned with being able to tell male apart from female during combat or walking through the woods....when from the detail we've seen in the recent video, their weapon, gear, etc. should be enough to tell you whether this one or that is your Monk, sword Fighter, Bow-slinger, Mage, etc.

 

I find it a bit sad that these are the most popular discussions on here

Pretty much.
 
In a game, the two basic things are whether the armor protects your character to your satisfaction in game combat (armor rating) and how cool you think it looks. Since what looks cool varies from person to person, to me it's just important in an rpg to have a lot of different choices ... as many as artist budget will allow. Then everyone can be relatively happy instead of spending all this time trying to justify their preference.
 
Btw, not to derail too much, but all this talk of cool armor makes me wish I could have a reason to use something like this in the game, because it would be kewl.
 

[TrashMan]

A)

I never said plate armor is heavy. I know it's not nearly as heavy or cumbersome as many people think. And it distributes weight quite well across the whole body.

 

Still, there are many reasons why an adventurer wouldn't want to wear one. For example:

- you need both help and time to put it on and take it off (just for taking a leak...)

- it requires a lot of maintenance (it's not made of stainless steel)

- extremely inconvenient in harsh weather conditions

 

In other words: it's exceedingly inconvenient. You wear one when it's your job to wear one or when you expect you're going to need it. Adventurers - as I understand the word - are not in constant, imminent danger. The vast majority of their time is spend far from a battle.

 

I wouldn't call it exceedingly inconvenient. Most of it is legends and myths. Even the stories about putting on armor. Yes, it takes a while because it has many parts, but it's not THAT difficult either.

Most wmen spend more time putting on makeup than a single guy would need to put on such armor.

 

Especially since a slight inconvenience is a small price to pay for safety.

Not to mention there were even lighter and differetn variants with differing degrees of protection. IIRC, there were variants with a removable codpiece if you had to take a leak.

 

 

 

 

B)

 

Longsword evolved with plate armor when shield became less necessary and you needed the force of two hands to penetrate the opponent's armor (yeah, I'm simplyfying things, but that's the gist of it). In later times, Zweihänder was used in battle by Landsknechte and - yes - bodyguards and banner guards. Two-handed Claymore was used in the constant battling of the clans.

 

None of those weapons are something an adventurer would carry with him for personal defense. They didn't generally even have scabbards - they're too big to be worn. You can wrap it in a cloth and add a strap for transport, but then you aren't exactly ready to use it. Like plate armor, they are something you have with you if it's your job to have a weapon constantly at hand or you know you're marching into battle.

 

That's what secondariy weapon are for, bub.

Everoyne had a side-sword or mace and a dagger...just in case.

 

Do you go around with weapons unsheated 24/7 just because you might be ambushed or attacked? No, of course not. There's no reason why a weapon must be ready for a quick-draw.

You could carry it on the back depending on the length of the sword and your height (there were several ways to do it actually.. some types of scabbards I won't bother describing). Or you could use it as a walking stick, since it was chisel shapr, not razor-sharp.

[Sacred_Path]

I think Caerdon actually raises a good point. In this sort of party based game I don't really see why some seem so concerned with being able to tell male apart from female during combat or walking through the woods....when from the detail we've seen in the recent video, their weapon, gear, etc. should be enough to tell you whether this one or that is your Monk, sword Fighter, Bow-slinger, Mage, etc.

Uhm... I'd say the opposite, in a single character (and single player) game you obviously don't have to distinguish between party members, so there it's really just fluff. As for all males looking the same (of the same race, anyway), I think we'd all like customization options (even if it was as basic as slim, medium, bulky) but I don't see that happen on a large scale as it's not one of their priorities. And in this game, characters could be quite hard to tell one character from another as mages can wear plate and wield swords, for instance. And I don't think that people wouldn't be bothered if your 6 characters all look the same regardless of race and gender.

[Diagoras]

Why are people seemingly assuming that adventuring is the equivalent of being a hobo?

 

Adventurers don't bum around and have fun in their job - then it would make no sense for them to be so heavily armed and armored. Adventurers seem to be individuals who spend most of their time hunting down and killing various horrific creatures in exchange for preposterously huge amounts of money. They're more like Late Medieval mercenaries, and I'm thinking Landsknechte/Condottieri/Swiss Pikemen here, than fantasy novel protagonists.

 

With that in mind it makes complete sense for them to choose the arms and armor they do. While I wouldn't wear plate while travelling through the woods, it would be near the top of armors I'd don once we were near the Ogre's lair. Likewise, gigantic two handed swords, warhammers, steel frame crossbows, and firearms are absolutely the weapons I'd go for to fight the Spider God of the Nightmare Forest. And I could afford not only these items, but the very best of them, as I'd be compensated to a ridiculous amount for dealing with these monstrosities - after all, people aren't very price sensitive when their lands are being ravaged by a spider the size of a house.

 

Edited April 13, 2013 by Diagoras

[LadyCrimson]

Uhm... I'd say the opposite, in a single character (and single player) game you obviously don't have to distinguish between party members, so there it's really just fluff. As for all males looking the same (of the same race, anyway), I think we'd all like customization options (even if it was as basic as slim, medium, bulky) but I don't see that happen on a large scale as it's not one of their priorities. And in this game, characters could be quite hard to tell one character from another as mages can wear plate and wield swords, for instance. And I don't think that people wouldn't be bothered if your 6 characters all look the same regardless of race and gender.

I never said anything about everyone looking like identical twins. Dwarves would obviously be of shorter stature, like in the video. And/or could have stocky and thin base-body types etc. like you mentioned. Others might have different skin tones that you'd notice in certain armors, others hair color/hairstyles, and so on. Special looted amor/items might have distinctive markings/colors vs. the base armor. Maybe you can buy dye from vendors to make all that leather armor or that plumed hat you want everyone to wear a few different colors.

 

The point was, I think, if they are all wearing heavy plate/helms or other full-covering armor why is it still important to some to be able to distinguish party member gender at a glance...vs. just race traits, height/stature, and armor/gear? Knowing what gender they are isn't a combat-helpful aspect in a game, AFAIK. What is the rationale for feeling like gender has to be highly distinguishable at all times vs. just knowing which character with the combat potential you want to command right now is the one you want to click on? There's all kinds of ways to know the latter "at a glance" that have nothing to do with rapid gender recognition at all.

 

If outside of combat you want to take all the character's armor off and put them in dresses and trousers and have a relaxing step dancing party at the tavern, great. But that's not what I'm referring to. And I'm not trying to pick on anyone specifically in this thread. It's just an attitude I've seen here and elsewhere, off and on and it's kinda curious.

 

Bah.....6am...hope I'm making sense.

[Sacred_Path]

I never said anything about everyone looking like identical twins.

you're right, that was Caerdon

The point was, I think, if they are all wearing heavy plate/helms or other full-covering armor why is it still important to some to be able to distinguish party member gender at a glance...vs. just race traits, height/stature, and armor/gear? Knowing what gender they are isn't a combat-helpful aspect in a game, AFAIK. What is the rationale for feeling like gender has to be highly distinguishable at all times vs. just knowing which character with the combat potential you want to command right now is the one you want to click on? There's all kinds of ways to know the latter "at a glance" that have nothing to do with rapid gender recognition at all.

Like I said, I don't think it will be so easy on a glance in P:E. The bard may look like a rogue, equipment wise, but they seem to be quite different mechanically, unlike in (A)D&D. Same goes for a mage in plate armor that might look but not actually work like a tank.

If outside of combat you want to take all the character's armor off and put them in dresses and trousers and have a relaxing step dancing party at the tavern, great. But that's not what I'm referring to. And I'm not trying to pick on anyone specifically in this thread. It's just an attitude I've seen here and elsewhere, off and on and it's kinda curious.

Since it's real time with PAUSE, it would indeed be a minor inconvenience. And part of it certainly only has to do with aesthetics; but that's something to be expected from a fantasy setting IMO.

[Elerond]

 

 

In my opinion aesthetics style which they use in these concepts make female and male character look different from each other, as armor is fitted to fit character's build and they don't need any special aesthetics to make that difference for more noticeable. And for to me this pragmatic aesthetic style what they use in these concepts is better than any what I have seen typical fantasy games.

 

And what comes to seeing character role from his or her gear. As they aim to make it possible build any class to any role in combat it is, so you should put such gear on your character that s/he can most effectively fill that role which you have choosen for him or her.

 

And when speaking about full plates, they should be rare and nearly unique pieces of art and armor, which cost so much that player can acguire at most one or two of them with money and other ones should be rewards of most difficult side quests. And so when your character wears one you will recognize him or her by quick glance always.

[LadyCrimson]

@Sacred_Path

 

...I guess I find it fairly easy to remember and keep track of differences/cues even as I may change their gear a lot. So I wouldn't confuse mage in plate with tank in plate because likely they'd wouldn't be in identical plate, or they'd have something else to distinguish them. eg, mage in plate with a short sword and tank in plate with a mace/shield. For me it's not about recognizing what class they are by gear, it's remembering what class/party member has what gear.

 

I suppose if one created a party of all same-race characters and one insisted in gearing them all exactly the same from head to toe, that could be a bit confusing at times. Or if one is more concerned with recognizing what classes enemies are, not your own characters, to try to get the jump on them.

 

---------------------

@Elerond - yeah, I'm confident there will be enough stuff to distinguish characters, whether by color, gender, items, or however one wants to play with things on a personal level. And I don't have any actual objection to male/female armors actually looking a bit different.

 

Gender recognition issue is just a psychology curiosity for me. I mean, I'm a gal who buys "male" t-shirts, because most female t-shirts are apparently made for people with very narrow shoulders so, y'know...I just find it kinda weird, all this clothing separation, when it comes to practical clothing vs. dress up clothing or something.

[Sacred_Path]

And when speaking about full plates, they should be rare and nearly unique pieces of art and armor, which cost so much that player can acguire at most one or two of them with money and other ones should be rewards of most difficult side quests.

I would actually love that.

[Keyrock]

 

 

In my opinion aesthetics style which they use in these concepts make female and male character look different from each other, as armor is fitted to fit character's build and they don't need any special aesthetics to make that difference for more noticeable. And for to me this pragmatic aesthetic style what they use in these concepts is better than any what I have seen typical fantasy games.

 

And what comes to seeing character role from his or her gear. As they aim to make it possible build any class to any role in combat it is, so you should put such gear on your character that s/he can most effectively fill that role which you have choosen for him or her.

 

And when speaking about full plates, they should be rare and nearly unique pieces of art and armor, which cost so much that player can acguire at most one or two of them with money and other ones should be rewards of most difficult side quests. And so when your character wears one you will recognize him or her by quick glance always.

Absolutely.  I just want to be able to be able to glance at my characters and be able to quickly and definitively be able to say "that's a woman" or "that's a man", without having to think about it too hard.  I don't care if it's realistic or not.  And yes, I also want to be able to tell apart males from males and females from females and say "that's Hobart" and "that's Frederick".  In my opinion that illustration of male and female plate armor is perfect for what I'm looking for.  Subtle differences for the female plate like a slightly more rounded look and a more slender waist are enough for me.  I don't need boob plate, the armors in that picture say "woman" enough for me.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Keyrock

[Darth Trethon]

The perfect example of female armors can be seen on the kickstarter page of Divinity: Original Sin. I hope Obsidian and inXile follow suit.

[Keyrock]

The perfect example of female armors can be seen on the kickstarter page of Divinity: Original Sin. I hope Obsidian and inXile follow suit.

Ironically, originally Scarlett was wearing a bikini top in that picture, but so many people griped about it, myself included, that Larian Studios touched up the picture to make it look more like some sort of leather vest.  I definitely still have gripe with that armor deign, easily the biggest being the comically gigantic single pauldron, and that goes for Roderick too.  I know it's a slightly cartoonish art style, but yeesh!

 

Sorry, comically gigantic pauldrons are a pet peeve of mine. 

[Darth Trethon]

 

The perfect example of female armors can be seen on the kickstarter page of Divinity: Original Sin. I hope Obsidian and inXile follow suit.

Ironically, originally Scarlett was wearing a bikini top in that picture, but so many people griped about it, myself included, that Larian Studios touched up the picture to make it look more like some sort of leather vest.  I definitely still have gripe with that armor deign, easily the biggest being the comically gigantic single pauldron, and that goes for Roderick too.  I know it's a slightly cartoonish art style, but yeesh!

 

Sorry, comically gigantic pauldrons are a pet peeve of mine. 

Well that's all awesome and well but I was referring more to this:

 

 

More like that would be far better.....and I'm perfectly serious here, no sarcasm or any such shenanigans.....armors should be made to resemble the armor in this picture. Magic is far more powerful than any steel or bulletproof material.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Darth Trethon

[Keyrock]

So you basically want Witchblade?

[Darth Trethon]

As far as armor style goes, sure that's awesome too.

[Elerond]

More like that would be far better.....and I'm perfectly serious here, no sarcasm or any such shenanigans.....armors should be made to resemble the armor in this picture. Magic is far more powerful than any steel or bulletproof material.

 

In world where bullets go through every magical defence that there are, which is reason why even wizard have started to use plate armors, I think that your description is not entirely accurate

[Nonek]

Got to say old bean, I don't think i'd look particularly good in those leaf/carapace bikini's, bit too hirsute to pull them off.

[Darth Trethon]

 

More like that would be far better.....and I'm perfectly serious here, no sarcasm or any such shenanigans.....armors should be made to resemble the armor in this picture. Magic is far more powerful than any steel or bulletproof material.

 

In world where bullets go through every magical defence that there are, which is reason why even wizard have started to use plate armors, I think that your description is not entirely accurate

Maybe low level mages and novices.....at mid to higher levels a bullet "getting through" would likely amount to slightly less than "hahaha, that tickles!!!"....at insane difficulties any kind of protection will probably be a waste of time since the toughest protection ever will likely be almost as strong as wet tissue paper.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Darth Trethon

[Elerond]

 

 

More like that would be far better.....and I'm perfectly serious here, no sarcasm or any such shenanigans.....armors should be made to resemble the armor in this picture. Magic is far more powerful than any steel or bulletproof material.

 

In world where bullets go through every magical defence that there are, which is reason why even wizard have started to use plate armors, I think that your description is not entirely accurate

Maybe low level mages and novices.....at mid to higher levels a bullet "getting through" would likely amount to slightly less than "hahaha, that tickles!!!"....at insane difficulties any kind of protection will probably be a waste of time since the toughest protection ever will likely be almost as strong as wet tissue paper.

 

That would be very bad game mechanical design that is even against world's lore.

 

Highest difficulties should make player need all the gear and tactical skill that s/he can muster, because these things is what makes tactical combat intresting and fun.

[Keyrock]

I've always thought of magical armor (which should be at least somewhat rare) as strengthening the existing material, making it more resilient, not creating a forcefield aound the character.  That doesn't do much if said material is only covering 5-10% of your body.  It's great if someone is slashing at your groin or pecs, but what about the rest of the body?  Now if we're talking about a shield spell around the character (either a temporary one from a cast spell or a permanent one from a magical ring or whatever), well that's completely independent of the armor, unless it's some kind of artifact armor that puts a shield bubble around you (that should be VERY rare).  Now if you're a sorceror who's particularly confident in his or her spellcasting abilities and thinks that it's strong enough to deflect any physical attack, be it blade, bludgeon, arrow, or bullet, then by all means, prance around in your skivvies.  Personally I'd rather have another layer of protection underneath, just as a last line of defense.  More importantly, what about those that don't wield magic?  There are other classes than magic users in the game, quite a few actually.  In fact, this thread is likely centered more on non magic users.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Keyrock

[TrashMan]

Why are people concerned with recognizing characters easily

 

It's a zoomed-out perspective FF's, even with the greatest amount of detail, you're not goign to be regognizing faces at that distance.

I never had trouble in any game - even in BG and ID2 where I gave everyone matching sets of armor!

 

You got color. You got weapons and accesories like cloaks. You got selection circles. You can turn on name overlay.

If you're having so much trouble telling your party members apart in the game, then the problem is not with the game, but with your head.

 

Some people really raise alarms over hte msot stupidest of all possible things...

 

 

 

 

Speaking of women armor...Witchbalde armor is a no-no. The level of armor coverage is all wrong.

This is how it should be:

http://i.imgur.com/GJAjR.jpg

altough it could probably stand to loose a bit of the pauldron.

Edited April 13, 2013 by TrashMan

[Spiritofpower]

Personally, I think PE should go with some form of magical defense; Say, a "Magic Armor" perk or skill or whatever that you can level up, and has some form of advantage to people who don't wear armor (like, your spells get a 15% bonus or something. Nothing OP, but some form of balanced incentive to make going around without armor worth your while).

 

What I'm basically saying here is that, if you want to dress up your party in a strange and eclectic mix of plate, chainmail, and lingerie, you should be able to do so; provided you're willing to deal with the consequences (i.e. not having any armoring, or less armoring, or getting fined for indecent exposure depending on local laws). And I'm also saying mages should have some form of balanced incentive to forgo armor, otherwise you're just gonna slap some plate on everyone except the rogue and be on your merry way, and the stereotypical robed wizard will become an impractical concept. And please, PLEASE don't give us D&D's "Wait, you're a rogue? And, what's that -- you want to pick up the anti-undead artifact sword your fighter was holding and take out that last zombie lord because he got killed? Too bad, you're a rogue and are therefore physically incapable of wielding it in any capacity under any circumstances," crap. If I want to stuff my wizard in plate with a sword I should be able to, but I don't expect him to be able to use it very well, at least at first.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I'd like a system similar to Morrowind's; you have certain classes, and they are good at certain things, but there is nothing preventing you from grabbing that awesome sword you just found and using it, even if you don't specialize in it. Just don't expect to be able to use it well for quite a while.

 

Actually, I think this point could use some more elaboration, so I'll start off with what a 'class' is, and sort of go from there. A 'class', as I define it, is a character background which defines what they have been trained to do; For example, a wizard knows how to cast spells reasonably well because they've been taught to do so. A fighter has been trained in the use of weapons and armor, and is thus capable of using them effectively. In short, a class defines what a character can do at the beginning of the game, because pre-game that's what they've been doing.

 

So what I'm trying to say is, just because I have been trained how to make fireballs rain from the heavens, doesn't mean I can't learn how to use a sword. I may need lots of experience and use of the sword to be able to use it well, and that would, of course, keep me from learning magic quite as quickly, but I should still be able to start learning if I want to. Heck, maybe even get as good as a fighter eventually, though that would take a rather negligent fighter and a very dedicated swordsmage (assuming the fighter is leveling alongside me). Similarly, just because I know the best way to swing an axe such that your head will suffer a slight case of severing, doesn't mean I can't learn how to shoot lightning from my fingers. It may take a long while until I can do it well enough for it to be of any real use, but there shouldn't be anything explicitly preventing me from learning how if I want to.

 

...Wow, that's a long rant. Anyways, all that up there is, obviously, just my opinion. I would absolutely love it if PE ended up being like that, but it may not, I don't know. I'd just like to get that out there.

 

...And, something just occurred to me; If you've got, like, a rogue trying to learn spellcasting, and a wizard in your party, I can totally see the wizard giving the rogue a few pointers to get him started. Like a system where the more experienced members of your party can teach the less-experienced members, if the newbie wants to learn a skill the more-experienced guy is good at.