Volourn Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Cabera is the MVP. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know true baseball. L0L WAR L0L DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgambit Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Ummm...no. A.L. WAR Bat / Pitch Tm WAR M.Trout LAA 9.1 J.Donaldson OAK 7.9 R.Cano NYY 7.6 M.Cabrera DET 7.1 C.Sale CHW 7.0 N.L. WAR Bat / Pitch Tm WAR C.Kershaw LAD 8.4 A.McCutchen PIT 8.0 C.Gomez MIL 8.0 C.Lee PHI 7.5 P.Goldschmidt ARI 7.1 AL MVP - Michael Trout and it's not even close. NL MVP - Clayton Kershaw in a clear runaway. Nice try but no. Trout loses on the Stat lines. Cabrera - .347 BA, 44 HR, 137 RBI OPS+ 1.078 Trout - .323, 26 HR, 94 RBI OPS+ 0.985 In fact, Davis from Baltimore might have almost as good a claim on MVP as Trout does. While his BA isn't as good, he simply carried Baltimore in the first half of the year. When he slowed down, the Orioles cratered. Trout can't make any such claim, unlike last year when he put the Angels on his back in the second half. Should Trout have won last year? Maybe. This year? Not so much. McCutcheon is an everyday player, Kershaw isn't. McCutcheon is still my choice. Should have been Max Scherzer - not sure where I got John from. Update: Toronto beats Tampa 7-2. Tampa and Texas tied. Edited September 28, 2013 by kgambit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Regardless of what stats people want to use, Trout has no chance of winning the MVP because he's on a chump team. You pretty much have to be on a playoff team, or at least on a team that contended for playoffs right until the end, to even have a chance at MVP. 1 RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Which makes complete sense to me, because most valuable player on a mediocre team seems a lot less important than helping to propel your team into the playoffs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) The Mariners are up 7-2 on the As. Looks like the Sawx are going to clinch the #1 seed before they even take the field tonight. If so, John Farrell should pull Lester after about 75 pitches, regardless of the score, and let someone like Workman pitch the rest of the game at that point. Time to start resting guys and giving potential pinch hitters and utility guys/non-everyday players/lesser used pitchers that may make the postseason roster some at-bats/innings. Edit: Also, The Tribe is up 5-1 in the 8th. Looks like they're going to take over sole possession of the top wild card slot. Edited September 28, 2013 by Keyrock RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 I'm glad you guys don't live near me and could not hear me ranting and raving earlier! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Actually I agree that Cabrera will win the MVP. But he's not the best player in the AL and really did not produce as many wins as Trout did for the Angels. My point is that it's not as clear cut that Cabrera should win the MVP as the advanced metrics clearly state that Trout is the more valuable player - in spite of not being in a playoff contending team. Intriguing piece by Rany Jazyerli on Trout and Cabrera: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9715559/mike-trout-quest-mvp-great-performance-major-league PS Slightly off topic rant...but I really dislike OPS. OBP and SLG should not be combined together (A+B =C) and used as a stat. It greatly discounts extreme players such as (going back in history) Brett Butler or on the other side, Andre Dawson. Edited September 28, 2013 by Leferd "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgambit Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Actually I agree that Cabrera will win the MVP. But he's not the best player in the AL and really did not produce as many wins as Trout did for the Angels. My point is that it's not as clear cut that Cabrera should win the MVP as the advanced metrics clearly state that Trout is the more valuable player - in spite of not being in a playoff contending team. PS Slightly off topic rant...but I really dislike OPS. OBP and SLG should not be combined together (A+B =C) and used as a stat. It greatly discounts extreme players such as (going back in history) Brett Butler or on the other side, Andre Dawson. Better player and most valuable player aren't the same thing. If we were voting on better player the answer might be different. If we were picking one for our team for the future, Trout wins hands down. ( jeez and he turned 22 less than two months ago!) But MVP? sorry .. still going with Cabrera Here are their slash lines BA / OBP / SLG Cabrera .347/.443/.653 Trout .330/.435/.570 And if you count actual Game winning RBIs, Cabrera beats Trout - 15 to 9 http://www.sportingcharts.com/mlb/stats/player-game-winning-rbis/2013/ I'm glad you guys don't live near me and could not hear me ranting and raving earlier! Good thing because you wouldn't have had to listen to me after Georgia 44 - LSU 41 ##^$&%$ Edited September 29, 2013 by kgambit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 There is no single stat, or even collection of stats that fully defines a player's value. For example, you look at a guy like Johnny Gomes on the Sawx. He's batting .244 with 13 HR and 51 RBI. If you were to just look at those numbers and nothing else, you certainly wouldn't think "major contributor", and yet, he is. The clutch game saving hits, the smart base running, going 1st to 3rd, harassing the pitcher while on 1st to make him throw a wild pitch or give up a hit. Things like that don't show up in stats. RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgambit Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 There is no single stat, or even collection of stats that fully defines a player's value. For example, you look at a guy like Johnny Gomes on the Sawx. He's batting .244 with 13 HR and 51 RBI. If you were to just look at those numbers and nothing else, you certainly wouldn't think "major contributor", and yet, he is. The clutch game saving hits, the smart base running, going 1st to 3rd, harassing the pitcher while on 1st to make him throw a wild pitch or give up a hit. Things like that don't show up in stats. True. Value extends well beyond stats. Some guys are clubhouse poison. Others are simply great "glue" guys. I hated seeing Napoli leave because I thought he was one of the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Have to disagree. Unlike other dynamic sports such as soccer or basketball, each singular event (pitch) in baseball is accounted for and indisputably quantifiable. It's the perfect zero sum game. As such baseball is the perfect platform for metric-driven study and application. So in essence, yes there is just a way to quantify just how valuable a player is. That's the difference between Billy Beane and the Oakland Athletics winning with miniscule payrolls and the Giants just committing $90 million for an average level corner outfielder on the wrong side of 31 with nice intangibles. WAR (Wins Above Replacement level) pretty much states that Trout is worth 9.1 wins above replacement level - two full wins above Cabrera's 7.1. This is accounting for offense, defense, and park factor. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) Oh boy, somebody's been drinking the advanced metrics Kool-Aid. Sure, advanced metrics can be useful, but no stat is foolproof, not in any sport. The eyeball test is the best test, and even that isn't foolproof. Edited September 29, 2013 by Keyrock RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 With all due respect, the battle was waged and essentially won in 2003 by the sabremetricians. If your front office is not already on board, you better have a $200 million payroll to play with. Damn straight I bought the kool-aid. Welcome to 15 years ago. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgambit Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) So in essence, yes there is just a way to quantify just how valuable a player is. Think stats can always discriminate? Who would you take? Player A or B BA / OBP / SLG / SB / R / RBI / HR A) .244 / .345 / .428 / 1 / 48 / 51 / 13 WAR = 1.1 B) .273 / .353 / .430 / 13 / 74 / 57 / 18 WAR = 2.3 If Sabermetrics rule then it has to be player B right? Player B turns out to be Alex Rodriquez 2012 ..... all 25 million dollars per year worth of him versus Johnny Gomes (player a) at 5 million a year Still think the higher WAR always trumps the lower one? Didn't think so. Hey, no biggie. We don't agree that's all. I think Sabremetrics fails to value some things which are important. That's all. Edited September 29, 2013 by kgambit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 In a vacuum, then yes, it would have to be player B is more productive than Player A. However, you would have to factor in age, park effects, and position in the absence of full information such as games played. However, I can infer that Player A has excellent plate discipline. When you consider that Player A also has the same SLG as player B despite a 30 pt BA deficit, you could infer that Player A has more power (extra base hits, doubles). Those can then translate to more homers in the future. Since batting average also fluctuates from year to year, the gap can also close and player A can trump player B. Sabermetrics does not remove judgement and nuance from decision making, but it can save you from spending good cash and given the data, you can predict future performance. See Nate Silver. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 Actually I agree that Cabrera will win the MVP. But he's not the best player in the AL and really did not produce as many wins as Trout did for the Angels. My point is that it's not as clear cut that Cabrera should win the MVP as the advanced metrics clearly state that Trout is the more valuable player - in spite of not being in a playoff contending team. PS Slightly off topic rant...but I really dislike OPS. OBP and SLG should not be combined together (A+B =C) and used as a stat. It greatly discounts extreme players such as (going back in history) Brett Butler or on the other side, Andre Dawson. Better player and most valuable player aren't the same thing. If we were voting on better player the answer might be different. If we were picking one for our team for the future, Trout wins hands down. ( jeez and he turned 22 less than two months ago!) But MVP? sorry .. still going with Cabrera Here are their slash lines BA / OBP / SLG Cabrera .347/.443/.653 Trout .330/.435/.570 And if you count actual Game winning RBIs, Cabrera beats Trout - 15 to 9 http://www.sportingcharts.com/mlb/stats/player-game-winning-rbis/2013/ I'm glad you guys don't live near me and could not hear me ranting and raving earlier! Good thing because you wouldn't have had to listen to me after Georgia 44 - LSU 41 ##^$&%$ Yeah, now THAT was a shocker "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) So, let's see if I have this correct. Now the Rangers and Rays play a single game for the final wild card spot (a playoff to get into a playoff to get in to the playoffs, if you will), then the winner of that game plays a single game against the Indians, presumably in Cleveland. The winner of that game plays Boston in the ALDS. Who's hosting the Rangers/Rays game? Edited September 30, 2013 by Keyrock RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Yep. That sounds right. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 So, let's see if I have this correct. Now the Rangers and Rays play a single game for the final wild card spot (a playoff to get into a playoff to get in to the playoffs, if you will), then the winner of that game plays a single game against the Indians, presumably in Cleveland. The winner of that game plays Boston in the ALDS. Who's hosting the Rangers/Rays game? They have to meet in the middle, so the game will take place on an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgambit Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 So, let's see if I have this correct. Now the Rangers and Rays play a single game for the final wild card spot (a playoff to get into a playoff to get in to the playoffs, if you will), then the winner of that game plays a single game against the Indians, presumably in Cleveland. The winner of that game plays Boston in the ALDS. Who's hosting the Rangers/Rays game? Texas is home team. Starting pitchers: Perez (Tex) versus Price (TB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyourprime Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Loria is amazing. Why would anyone buy tickets to a game, no-hitter or not, after it ends? http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130930&content_id=62230650&vkey=pr_mia&c_id=mia I can't bookmark the crazy things he does fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Loria is amazing. Why would anyone buy tickets to a game, no-hitter or not, after it ends? http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130930&content_id=62230650&vkey=pr_mia&c_id=mia I can't bookmark the crazy things he does fast enough. It's silly, but I bet some folks will buy them, which means it's a good idea from a business standpoint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 kgambit is probably not a happy man right now. But I sure am. Great win, great performance by Price. He wasn't dominating by any means but he got outs when it was needed and going the whole 9 saved an overused pen. On to Cleveland! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Loria is amazing. Why would anyone buy tickets to a game, no-hitter or not, after it ends? http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130930&content_id=62230650&vkey=pr_mia&c_id=mia I can't bookmark the crazy things he does fast enough. That man has so poisoned the relationship between the fish and their fans there is probably no going back. I keep hoping to read that he's selling. I know Jeb Bush wanted to buy them last winter. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Loria is amazing. Why would anyone buy tickets to a game, no-hitter or not, after it ends? http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130930&content_id=62230650&vkey=pr_mia&c_id=mia I can't bookmark the crazy things he does fast enough. It's silly, but I bet some folks will buy them, which means it's a good idea from a business standpoint. Lols. Brilliant! Just like Personal Seat Licenses. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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