A Spell-free Project Eternity?

[PrimeJunta]

I'm partial to certain Jack Chick tracts meself...

[Alexjh]

No offense, but I don't see a particular need to design the game in order not to offend the religious beliefs of one person. There are other games out there from which to choose. Try Wasteland 2 or such.

 

P.S. The moral panic over D&D permanently burned out my interest in placating the religious groups over gaming. If we let this one slip through, then more demands are sure to follow. Just... no.

He's not asking that all spells be removed, hes asking that the game be completable without them, which it probably will be anyway.

 

You shouldn't treat every religious person as if they are identical zombies - far from it - and while there are certainly obnoxious people out there, there are plenty of reasonable people out there who are religious and willing to let others get on with their lives.  It's just that the idiots who cry witchhunt if they see someone reading Harry Potter on the bus are just a lot more vocal than everyone else.  The only way that you can stop this being an issue is to have some dialogue with religion - not the extremists of course, but if a regular people are engaged, see something for what it is then it leaves the extremists without a leg to stand on.  

[rjshae]

I'm partial to certain Jack Chick tracts meself...

 

Hahaha... amusing stuff.

[rjshae]

 

No offense, but I don't see a particular need to design the game in order not to offend the religious beliefs of one person. There are other games out there from which to choose. Try Wasteland 2 or such.

 

P.S. The moral panic over D&D permanently burned out my interest in placating the religious groups over gaming. If we let this one slip through, then more demands are sure to follow. Just... no.

He's not asking that all spells be removed, hes asking that the game be completable without them, which it probably will be anyway.

 

You shouldn't treat every religious person as if they are identical zombies - far from it - and while there are certainly obnoxious people out there, there are plenty of reasonable people out there who are religious and willing to let others get on with their lives.  It's just that the idiots who cry witchhunt if they see someone reading Harry Potter on the bus are just a lot more vocal than everyone else.  The only way that you can stop this being an issue is to have some dialogue with religion - not the extremists of course, but if a regular people are engaged, see something for what it is then it leaves the extremists without a leg to stand on.  

 

I don't believe I did treat this person as an identical zombie; I am arguing that the game shouldn't be designed around one player's moral principles. Get it? I'm disagreeing with the message, rather than the messenger.

[Alexjh]

 

 

No offense, but I don't see a particular need to design the game in order not to offend the religious beliefs of one person. There are other games out there from which to choose. Try Wasteland 2 or such.

 

P.S. The moral panic over D&D permanently burned out my interest in placating the religious groups over gaming. If we let this one slip through, then more demands are sure to follow. Just... no.

He's not asking that all spells be removed, hes asking that the game be completable without them, which it probably will be anyway.

 

You shouldn't treat every religious person as if they are identical zombies - far from it - and while there are certainly obnoxious people out there, there are plenty of reasonable people out there who are religious and willing to let others get on with their lives.  It's just that the idiots who cry witchhunt if they see someone reading Harry Potter on the bus are just a lot more vocal than everyone else.  The only way that you can stop this being an issue is to have some dialogue with religion - not the extremists of course, but if a regular people are engaged, see something for what it is then it leaves the extremists without a leg to stand on.  

 

I don't believe I did treat this person as an identical zombie; I am arguing that the game shouldn't be designed around one player's moral principles. Get it? I'm disagreeing with the message, rather than the messenger.

Sorry about the way I phrased that, I wasn't really addressing that at you so much as using that as a springboard to try and pre-empt any full on religion-bashing - I've seen quite a lot of Gamers vs Religions with each being openly hostile to the other in a way that just makes matters worse.  As for the around one players principles, it depends on context, and what you mean by one player.

 

To take the game "Smite" that there was a bit of an issue around last year, where there was an issue of it including Hindu Gods and Goddesses in an arena battle game alongside Greek, Viking and Egyptian deities.  I'm not religious in the slightest but you could see that was going to offend people from a mile off and to me if nothing else ts good manners not to include a being or beings that approximatly ONE BILLION people consider to be real in a beat-em-up.   What should have happened was the company should have gone "Oh, we're dreadfully sorry, we didn't really think it through properly, we shall remove them immediatly", but what happened in stead was effectively numerous mssage boards of idiot gamers saying effectively "suck on that organised religion", with the actual company replying basically that they were going to carry on adding more Gods.

 

Which isn't to say that religion shouldn't be allowed in games, far from it, games are as a valid a medium to say what they like as books or film or whatever, but there is a difference between considered inclusion of something, even in such a way as if you were to make a game that specifically critiqued a certain religion, to just going "hey that guys deity looks cool, lets stick them in this fighting game so they can get beaten up!".  We live in a very diverse world and the sooner people work out that other people are different to themselves and the sooner people stop doing things which will offend others because they didn't think about it and it seems fun the happier everyone will be.

 

Equally though there are some cases where Religious people also need to look at things in perspective: I read something somewhere abotu a guy who returned Marvel: Ultimate Alliance to a shop because you had to find 5 candles to form a Pentagram to get through Mepihsto (the Devil Analogues) Realm.  Where its something like that and they aren't familiar enough with their own religion to know that the pentagram was in the past a Christian symbol, and the context of the game where you had just killed hundreds of demons to get these candles, you can fairly safely assume that Captain America isn't a secret demon worshipper.

 

In the case of the thread, yes it may one man's oppinion here, but as we already know it's possible to solo the game this isn't even an issue.  In general, if a game doesn't have a point to make and it's a minor thing to change (or as in this case, not a thing at all), why not fix things to make more people feel comfortable playing your game, and help lessen the bad blood between religion and games?

[Matthiasa]

Given the number of classes I am not sure why they wouldn't allow the to be possible even if difficult.

 

 

 

How long before someone posts "I am a wizard (a real one) and...." ????

 

Ask you shall receive...

 

But seriously one of the design tools I have used does get refered to as black magic, officially a smith chart, but so do other areas of the field are also called that as well. A certian well known practioners in the past was known as a wizard.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Matthiasa

[frgodfrey]

Truly, I didn’t expect to have so many people respond, and even less the various tangents.  They are all very interesting.

 

Just to clarify my position, which I believe, is the position of the Church.  It is not wrong or evil to use in-game magic (or in-game anything) except in very rare occasions where the player realizes that their using it would tempt them to indulge in what they believe is sinful behavior in real life.  In other words, when they knowingly tempt themselves to do what they consider evil.  Since this is largely subjective there really can be no general condemnation of a game’s content (except, perhaps, in extreme cases like pornography).

 

That being said, I, personally, have no problem with in-game magic, and in fact, I plan to make full use of any magic items/weapons I find, because there is no detailed knowledge to remember for their use.

 

From my considerable experience with very strict puritanical-types (and my superiors) I believe they have a problem with game-magic because they know almost nothing about games and identify game magic with the real thing.  Their knowledge about games consists mostly of old shocking news stories where some violent act was linked to a game.  That is far too incomplete a knowledge to base any judgments on.

 

My superiors have no interest or time to learn about games, and since they are at least partially responsible for me (because I took the 3 traditional vows) their default attitude is one of suspicion—but given their responsibility, I can understand that.  (I suppose it's not much different than a conscientious parent of a teenage girl).

 

In reading the replies, it seems that I will be able to play and finish the game without employing a magic-user if I don’t feel up to that particular challenge.  That was my main question/request and so I am at ease about the matter.  Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply.  Dare I say, “God bless you?”

[IndiraLightfoot]

I hope you didn't get offended by my childish joke, Friar Godfrey, I just couldn't resist. I do respect your choices and your passionate belief, but I think you will have to count on a lot of unlawful and offending things in a game setting such as this: It will be loosely inspired by some feudal medieval setting after all, perhaps including religious persecution, inquisition and necromany, for instance. However, I truly commend you for playing CRPG: That is so great!

[Sacred_Path]

Just to clarify my position, which I believe, is the position of the Church.  It is not wrong or evil to use in-game magic (or in-game anything) except in very rare occasions where the player realizes that their using it would tempt them to indulge in what they believe is sinful behavior in real life.  In other words, when they knowingly tempt themselves to do what they consider evil.  Since this is largely subjective there really can be no general condemnation of a game’s content (except, perhaps, in extreme cases like pornography).

pray tell us good friar, what's your position on murder hobos?

[IndiraLightfoot]

     

[Enclave]

magic (which in real life, always has ties to the diabolic)

 

Just to point out, that's not actually the case.  There are various cultures which have had belief in magic where the magic was in no way diabolic.

 

Hooray for being a bit of a theology and mythology buff

[PrimeJunta]

 

magic (which in real life, always has ties to the diabolic)

 

Just to point out, that's not actually the case.  There are various cultures which have had belief in magic where the magic was in no way diabolic.

 

Hooray for being a bit of a theology and mythology buff

 

Such as the common Christian belief that prayer or other activities like a pilgrimage to Lourdes for example can sometimes cure incurable diseases. That's a cure disease spell right there. Anthropologically speaking anyway.

[Sedrefilos]

I have never written in a forum before, so please pardon any mistakes I may make here.

 

I am a monk (a real one) and have played some games in the past and enjoyed them.  I saw this project Eternity and donated to its completion because it seems like the type of game I used to enjoy.  I read your updates and see that you are at a stage in development where a request may still be taken into consideration.  

 

Could you make it possible to play and win the game without employing a magic-user?

 

I am able to play games only occasionally and I find remembering spells and how to use them difficult from session to session (as opposed to simple slashing/stabbing weapons).  Another reason for the request is that my superiors don't care much for computer games in general, but a computer game that forces one to use magic (which in real life, always has ties to the diabolic) they would simply not allow.  I would get in trouble if they catch me, for sure.

 

Thank you for reading my post and perhaps considering my request.

 

PS:  If you have a place in the game where Gregorian-style chant would be an appropriate addition, my abbey would probably let you record them during their prayers (we sing in both English and Latin).  It is St Michael's Abbey, not far from your offices.

There is no magic in real life

[nikolokolus]

"Superiors"

 

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what this means exactly?  In any case, maybe fantasy RPGs aren't for you?  If you're this morally conflicted about it, might I suggest a different hobby.

[Tsuga C]

Friar Godfrey,

 

I wish you well in your efforts to keep your in-game use of magic on the down-low.  I believe that it might not be possible to complete the game without your player character using some of the soul-based powers.  You might be able to avoid taking spell casters with you, but based upon what I've read about Project: Eternity, I think your character will be passively and actively drawing upon the powers of their soul on a regular basis.  If this smacks of the occult to you, then Project: Eternity might not be a prudent investment. 

 

Have you taken your final vows to your order?  If not, perhaps a pause to reconsider might be worthwhile.  If a simple roleplaying game has the potential to put you in conflict with your more stodgy superiors, then I'd give careful consideration as to whether or not I'd want such people as my superiors.  Meditate upon that and draw your own conclusions.

 

Respectfully,
Tsuga C

 

PS--Havamal!

[rjshae]

There is no magic in real life

 

Apart from quantum entanglement...

[Tsuga C]

 

There is no magic in real life

 

Apart from quantum entanglement...

Science is merely magic grown mundane. 

[Umberlin]

I am having trouble seeing how you could have trouble remembering spell effects, and have to look them up, in the context of modern PC RPGs where most effects are explained right on screen, or with a pop-up on mouse over. Even, for example, the BG series had spell effects described on the spells in the game, no time wasted and no need to go out of your way to look them up. Still, if you don't want to use magic, don't. Oh well. If you really want to do that you'll find a way to make it work. If your time is so limited play nothing is forcing you to play for longer than you need, and magic certainly isn't forcing you to. If anything magic spells up progress through most RPGs I can think of.

[Matthiasa]

 

There is no magic in real life

 

Apart from quantum entanglement...

Yes because that is the only part of quantum physics that can cause "interesting effects".

Officially you could fall through the earth, have a dragon eat you, have a solar mass black hole materialize inside you, the universe universe could disappear, another big bang could occur, etc given enough time.

Just mundane things like individual particles interfering with themselves isn't something one would guess would ever happen if they had no knowledge of quantum physics.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Matthiasa

[JFSOCC]

I dunno, we're living with pretty advanced magic already, I have a device with which I can contact ANYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD who also has such a device. and I can do so with almost no delay.

[AGX-17]

a computer game that forces one to use magic (which in real life, always has ties to the diabolic)

 

You guys would not be able to appreciate through text how hard I am laughing right now. Whenever someone says "real magic" like some pudgy wiccan wearing a velvet cape to community college classes can make a voodoo curse on some douche, I can't breathe from the laughter.

 

Oh man, I can't believe people like this exist in the industrialized world. I wonder if they think internal combustion is a form of magic. What about the internet? How can they believe in rational thought if they believe magic is real?

 

At any rate, they've said you can play through the game, start to finish, with only your player character alone, regardless of class. So whatever, the anti-christ computer demons encoded in the demonic magic machine on your desk can't hurt you.

Edited January 21, 2013 by AGX-17

[rjshae]

Which makes me wonder, will the game feature magic-using trolls?

[rjshae]

I dunno, we're living with pretty advanced magic already, I have a device with which I can contact ANYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD who also has such a device. and I can do so with almost no delay.

 

Any sufficiently advanced magic... is going to require a payment plan.

[AGX-17]

Which makes me wonder, will the game feature magic-using trolls?

 

Have you ever been to a Christian game review site? Or an Evangelical church? These people legitimately exist. 

[rjshae]

Mmm... yes, I'm familiar with the Christian philosophy, and I usually prefer to live and let live; to turn the other cheek, if you will. My main issue is when religious beliefs lead to ignorant prejudices that harm others.

 

But we're probably getting a bit off the subject of PE now...