Mali Civil War and the Western Intervention

[Malcador]

No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government?

 

Well, probably that and they need their base.  Also I guess they're worried about post-NATO intervention Syria being a bad basketcase

[BruceVC]

The odds of Oby actually living in Russia are pretty slim Bruce.

 

 

Honestly, why would you think that? Do you know something I don't. I am intrigued

[Zoraptor]

BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said:

No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government?

No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them.

 

You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Zoraptor

[NOK222]

 

BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said:

No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government?

No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them.

 

You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist.

Terrorist right now. 

[BruceVC]

 

BruceVC, on 25 Jan 2013 - 04:42, said:

No my friend, you are mistaken. Russia would rather let thousands of people die than to accept that one of its "allies" is a brutal dictator and is prepared to use the might of his military to stop political dissension. In other words Syria. Russia could have prevented this civil war if it had voted for military action in the UN Security Council. Don't you feel ashamed with your government?

No individual should feel ashamed of what their government does, unless they support it- in which case they won't feel ashamed anyway- as there's nothing any individual can do. Do you feel ashamed of your government's wholesale and unconditional support of Mugabe, having the worst war since WW2 (that's Congo, minimum 20x the deaths of Syria and still rising) practically on your doorstep, your police shooting strikers, your cricket team losing to New Zealand of all people, because you shouldn't unless you condone them.

 

You'd also get a very long list of all the times leaders killing their own people is perfectly fine, because the leader happens to be supported by the West and uses the dehumaniser du jour- communist, terrorist, anarchist whateverist the current boogeyman ist.

 

Actually I do feel ashamed of my governments handling of Zimbabwe, its a disgrace and has lead to major issues for the region. I support the Police in there handling of the miners strikes, so no issues there. You can be patriotic but pragmatic in your support of a governing political party. If the governing party makes bad decisions or questionable foreign policy decisions then you have a responsibility to raise this in the public domain, we do this in South Africa as we believe in free speech and this is a tenet of a Democracy

 

You can't do this in Russia as they have limited free speech and most criticism of Putin is squashed or the people arrested. I stand by my point that the Russian handling of the Syrian crisis is a disgrace and they should be ashamed.

 

PS: I'm impressed by your general knowledge of South African affairs. Where do you live?

[Zoraptor]

You shouldn't feel ashamed about how your government handles Zimbabwe, because there isn't anything that you can do about it. I don't like my (New Zealand, we get a fair bit of SA news since there are a lot of ex pats here) government's ambulance at cliff bottom attitude towards children's health much at all for example, but since I neither voted for them nor have given them any support on the matter whatsoever I put the blame where the blame lies, with them not me.

 

If it really were true that you could not even show dissent in Russia then there's even less reason for Russians to feel ashamed of what their government does as it is (even more) unrepresentative and they don't even get a theoretical say in what it does.

[BruceVC]

You shouldn't feel ashamed about how your government handles Zimbabwe, because there isn't anything that you can do about it. I don't like my (New Zealand, we get a fair bit of SA news since there are a lot of ex pats here) government's ambulance at cliff bottom attitude towards children's health much at all for example, but since I neither voted for them nor have given them any support on the matter whatsoever I put the blame where the blame lies, with them not me.

 

If it really were true that you could not even show dissent in Russia then there's even less reason for Russians to feel ashamed of what their government does as it is (even more) unrepresentative and they don't even get a theoretical say in what it does.

 

 

New Zealand, ouch. You must be loving the cricket at the moment (okay you did win the last one day game)

 

I think you and I see the responsibility and opinion of a citizen of a country differently. I believe in activism and the importance of voicing your opinion. You can think your government is doing a good job in many areas but when it makes bad decisions either domestically or internationally you have a duty to say or do something. Therefore if my country decided to veto military action in the UN Security Council around any conflict and this lead directly to a civil war where thousands get killed,  because one side happens to be in control of the military, I would be ashamed and make this point on radio and any forum I have access to where this ddiscussion was relevant.

 

But I do see your point about the limited free speech in Russia so any disagreement with government would be ineffectual to a certain degree

[obyknven]

 

My personal point of view:
Idea, what bombings of citizens and destruction of their land infrastructure can help them looks so idiotic for me. Problems like this (Syria, Afghanistan, Mali) can't be resolved by military power. Look at Afghanistan for example. NATO fight there against Taliban to long, but can't win. Taliban popularity only increasing from this, their number are increasing, their influence spreading on neighbor regions. It's happen because external military intervention legalize their power. Without external enemy any radical regimes can't exist to long, people exhausted from this to fast and overthrow their. Anyway it must be own citizens decision. At last times West forgot about National self-determination right, but it's one of most important democratic right. If your government violate this, it's mean they are non-democratic IRL.

P.S. Actually we have more freedom in Russia, than in any Western country. We always been too anarchic, government controls only most important sites, 90 % of territory have autonomous life. In time of civil war Germans occupied Ukraine and use 1 million soldiers for control this small part of Russia, but fail. Makhno and Petliura approve this. Because this, all these talks about repressions looks so non correct. 

 

[Malcador]

Hm, that's not a bad point.

[Rostere]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

[Hurlshort]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

 

Gaah.

 

I don't see how anyone can call these people Muslims.  They're destroying records from one of the greatest Islamic learning centers in history.

[Meshugger]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

 

Gaah.

 

I don't see how anyone can call these people Muslims.  They're destroying records from one of the greatest Islamic learning centers in history.

 

"I think that God meant to say was..."

Edited January 28, 2013 by Meshugger

[Malcador]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

 

Shame.  Surprised they didn't burn it all when they took the place rather than just when the French advanced. 

[obyknven]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

Conrad Nomicos from "This Immortal" by Roger Zelazny, do similar things. Through actions such as the deconstruction of the pyramids, Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others.

 

On other side, nobody interests these texts before, but when they are destroyed all begin whining about them. Actually you can easy find medieval sacred texts in Internet and read them. But you don't do this, because you don't want read boring texts written by primitive ancestors. Do you worried about this loss, only because your media say do this?

[Hurlshort]

Actually every 7th grader in California is taught about the history of Timbuktu and their legacy of Islamic scholars and universities.  It's one of my favorite units. 

[Gorth]

Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others.

I always knew vegans were a breed apart. Never trust people who refuse to eat meat!

[Rostere]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/mali/9832061/Mali-French-troops-encircle-Timbuktu-as-fleeing-Islamists-burn-ancient-scrolls.html

Conrad Nomicos from "This Immortal" by Roger Zelazny, do similar things. Through actions such as the deconstruction of the pyramids, Conrad makes the Vegans see that Earthlings would rather destroy the planet's riches than see them fall into the hands of others.

 

On other side, nobody interests these texts before, but when they are destroyed all begin whining about them. Actually you can easy find medieval sacred texts in Internet and read them. But you don't do this, because you don't want read boring texts written by primitive ancestors. Do you worried about this loss, only because your media say do this?

I have no idea what the Timbuktu scrolls contained, however I have a great interest in archaeology (although primarily the ancient Middle East). In my personal library I have both the epic of Gilgamesh, the Enuma Elish (translated into Swedish by the brilliant Ola Wikander), a smaller number of  more obscure texts, and a great number of treatises on excavations and such. Speaking of which, I can REALLY recommend the book "The Conquest of Assyria: Excavations in an Antique Land" by Mogens Trolle Larsen to anyone interested in history and the region (which sadly goes for $150 on Amazon...).

 

EDIT: In short: I don't like documents from past cultures to be lost, but be made available so that we can enjoy our global cultural heritage.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Rostere

[BruceVC]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission

 

Britain is going to be sending troops to Mali to assist with logistical and training support

 

Well done UK, its good to see you assisting your French neighbors in this African mission

Edited January 29, 2013 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Impressive logistical support for this war, heh.

[Walsingham]

I don't see why the hell we should back up the French on a new anti-militant mission when we're hammering away from Afghan like we stole all the crisps.

 

A fun way to burn a couple of hours is to compare the solid logical foundations of UK foreign policy doctrine with the cowardly fethnuts who actually decide it.

 

Also, hello 'obyknven'. Nice avatar, freedom space monkey.

[BruceVC]

I don't see why the hell we should back up the French on a new anti-militant mission when we're hammering away from Afghan like we stole all the crisps.

 

A fun way to burn a couple of hours is to compare the solid logical foundations of UK foreign policy doctrine with the cowardly fethnuts who actually decide it.

 

Also, hello 'obyknven'. Nice avatar, freedom space monkey.

 

I firmly believe that there are times when international intervention  is required and necessary in certain  countries internal politics. Mali needed assistance and the French and there allies provided it. This is a good thing and shows that the world does care, well certain countries care.

[Gorth]

Mali is sort of two conflicts in one. I don't think anyone outside the African continent would have batted an eyelid if it had been a conflict between independence seeking Tuaregs and the Mali central government. Problem is the "new" guys who moved in after getting evicted from parts of Somalia and nobody, including Mali's next door neighbours wants those anachronistic parasites to get a foothold anywhere, having amply displayed their skills in nation destruction and none in nation building.

[obyknven]

Western stereotypical military stupidity.

26 january 2013.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/africa/130126/gao-airport-bridge-captured-mali-french-led-troops

French-led troops in Mali have taken control of the airport in the northern town of Gao, a Islamist stronghold, the French Defense ministry said.

 Victory!

11 february 2013.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/10/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE91902V20130210

 Gunbattle rocks Gao after rebels surprise French, Malians

ok, French "wins" again, but now

 

21 february 2013

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/21/us-mali-rebels-idUSBRE91K09D20130221

Reuters reporters in Gao in the country's desert north said French and Malian forces fired at the mayor's office with heavy machineguns after Islamists were reported to have infiltrated the Niger River town during a night of explosions and gunfire.

http://youtu.be/Af74TTL2B0M

 

French warfare looks so lame!

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/WkzXTgslFNE

CLICK ON THE SUBTITLE ICON for the TRANSLATION in ENGLISH

[JFSOCC]

that was an interesting perspective. I suspect he's closer to the truth than we give him credit for.