Summoning

[Lephys]

We are in agreement. This was my intention. I believe I may have not explained myself as well as I should have, also. I thought it was implicit in that the balance of the number/potency of the summons could be balanced for any desired level. One high-powered demon might be as difficult to control as three lesser monsters, etc. Every summon would have a type of..."exertion score" that would play against the summoner's relevant casting skill/mental attribute. This would be entirely adjustable as the designers see fit to balance the type and number of summons controllable by one person given X abilities at any one time.

Please don't think I was trying to shoot down the entire idea. Really, the only problem I see with any implementation of that means of control is if it didn't really operate on a "the first one's free" system. Because, if there's always a small chance it's just going to turn on you, then the more powerful the summon, the worse the effects of that chance become. Imagine if you had a grenade, but you didn't know how long the fuse was. It could be 10 seconds, or it could be .003 seconds. Would you use that grenade? The risk is directly proportionate to the explosive power of the grenade. Plus, if you were a grenadier, you'd be disinclined to fulfill your own role. "I better just do other stuff, and MAYBE if I feel like tossing the dice, I'll use grenades."

 

Now, imagine that, instead of a grenade, you have a nuke. But you can't target it. You activate it, and it's going to fly up in the air, then choose a target. Odds are pretty good it's going to target the foe, at a nice safe distance. But, there's a 15% chance it's going to come straight back to you and detonate. That's going to pretty much be a last-resort weapon, at that point.

 

So, yes, maybe you can summon more numerous weaker things, or less numerous stronger things, sort of quantified to the same amount of summon. Like 3 imps that each have 5 HP and deal 3 damage, or a single wolf that has 15 HP and deals 9 damage, for example. (Not that the numbers need to be perfectly even, but it helped express the idea.) If you can only summon one imp safely, and trying to summon 2 or 3 starts getting risky (in whether or not they're even going to be of ANY benefit), then imagine how disinclined you are to try to summon a wolf that's the same risk as all three imps at once.

 

So, what I'm thinking is, if you get to summon a wolf (relatively powerful thing), OR three imps, both of those take you to your maximum of guaranteed control. Then, maybe you have the OPTION of trying to summon another wolf, or another imp. Another imp might have a 2% chance to break control, while the wolf would be somewhere around 10%. Almost like the further you overflow your control-ometer, the higher the chance goes, with the control being proportionate to the power of the creature.

 

I just feel like, if you're a summoner, and you can't rely on your summons, that would be a lot like a Fighter being incapable of relying on his weapon/arms. Imagine, you use a shortsword, and you're okay. But you want to use a greatsword? Alright. It's simply that much more powerful than the shortsword, but there's a 15% chance, with each swing, that you'll simply attack yourself with it.

 

And the only problem I have even with the scenario in which you can summon a single strong thing, guaranteed, then start running into risk percentages of additional summons is that, you're still simply rolling the dice on the entire effect of your core ability. If you succeed, via sheer luck, you could produce 3 wolves without losing control, and just mow down everything in your path.

 

I'd honestly much rather see a definite percentage increase on a diminished effect. Like, if you're allowed to attempt summoning more things, then the more things you summon, the slower/less-effective they become. Summon 1 big baddy? Maybe he's got 5 charges of an ability, and full potency. Summon a 2nd one? He's half the HP/strength of the first, and only has 2 charges of that ability. Summon a third one? He may be almost ineffective. But each would still take up equal amounts of control, in so far as the equation determines how effective each summon is, versus the amount of summoned entity you've already got out. *shrug*

 

I mean, you strain yourself with anything, and you suffer some detriment for it. You don't just convert it into a coin toss. I'm playing BG:EE right now, and Neera the Wild Mage functions like that. She has potent abilities, but they're coin tosses. And what happens? I only use them when I pretty much have no other choice. 'Cause, otherwise, I'm simply jeopardizing my success. "This battle's going swimmingly so far. Let's toss the dice, and see if Neera helps out, or if we all burn alive! 8D". Granted, she can cast normal spells, too, and that's what I use her for. But any mage can do that. So, the thing that makes her a wild mage also makes her a last resort, rather than something I actually get the benefit of on a regular basis, thrown into the class/role mix.

[Ulquiorra]

The only thing i liked about Diablo 2 was "Necromancer".

 

He was weak itself, but he coud "summon" a small army that was doing most of the work ... in general we seen a "pale masters", "liches" or "necromancers" in D&D setting .. and they have small army under their serivse ...

 

Imagine, having a necromancer class in the game ... it whoud be awsome ..

[Osvir]

There is only one thing I would want from Summoning... actually 3 things.

1. Name your summons. This way they get more personal and gets roleplaying value rather than a "combat" asset. It becomes an extra companion instead of a Magical Spell. 

2a. If they die they die. X-Com style. Different Tiers are contracted differently (Low-Mid-High).
3. Final Fantasy 8. Fight some higher tier summons and tame them/bind them or whatnot. Learning a Demon's true name for instance.

2b.
- Low-Tier Summons = Easy to get more contracts to summon more (Infinite amount)
- Mid-Tier Summons = Virtually Unlimited. Some Low-Tier Summons could perhaps even upgrade into Mid-Tier Summons if they can stay alive for long enough in the party? (And/Or as the Wizard levels up, Low-Tier Summons simply come out as Mid-Tier).
- High-Tier Summons = Demons which you've learned true names and other unique/epic/legendary Summons you've found = Permanent Death if they die. Limited Stock.

[Lephys]

Although, I worry about a morale system like that because it is not simple. It could be that a druid has a quantity of wolves per day that he can summon, a number determined by his prowess as a summoning druid. For example, let's say this number is 10. He can summon 10 wolves, but if one dies he can't get that wolf back for a while. After all, they aren't in numerous quantities in some other plane, nor are they created by him. And while there are probably many wolves in the world, he probably only has the allegiance of one pack. Therefore if he is careless with his wolves, their displeasure is demonstrated by their inability to serve again until they have recuperated. They might also flee from the battle.

 

In other words, these summons might be a resource in themselves.

Well, here was my thinking on the matter:

 

If you're not actually magically transporting and dominating something (you're calling allies who help you because they've agreed to, and not because you literally bend their will), then it's more like you're just calling out to wolves (as per our examples) in the area. Because wolves will help you. Not because a specific group of wolves has made a pact with you and follows you around throughout the entire game. And it maybe does take something out of you to actually call on the aid of wolves (some kind of mental message you can get to them, via your whole connection with nature as a Druid or some other character who might be able to call upon nature's allies), so you can only call on wolves so many times, etc. (Much like Vancian spell ammo). But, I was thinking that things like their duration and effectiveness could vary, depending on some abstraction of the conditions discouraging them to fight for you, pitted against their innate desire to fight for you. Kind of like... if your friend is trapped in a building, and a fire's started, you might run in there at risk to yourself. But, if the entire building is literally collapsing in a giant flaming mass, you probably won't go just leap into a literal burning pile of rubble and start trying to dig your friend out at the cost of all your flesh melting off.

 

That, and I imagine that wolves who are simply helping you because they like you are still going to get to a point at which they're all "Umm, you're really cool and all, but we REALLY need to go back to our den and tend our wounds." In other words, they don't owe you their lives. They just owe you SOME risk.

 

So, yeah... morale maybe isn't the simplest thing ever, but I think it could be abstracted pretty well. I dunno, though. There are plenty of other things to be worked out with that. It was only a preliminary idea for a mechanic. There would be a need for SOME kind of factor there, since you're simply calling aid and not forcibly controlling the aid, and there's no reason, therefore, to demand some detriment to the caller's capabilities like there is with created/sustained/dominated minions. So, if not morale, then something. Otherwise, we're back to the "either they're kept really weak and lame to make up for the fact that they're free additional forces, or they're stupidly powerful free additional forces" dilemma.

 

Of course, you could still have the whole tradeoff going beteween the effectiveness of ally-summoning and the effectiveness of all your non-ally-summoning capabilities. Maybe if you take feats and/or boost things to make it so that eight wolves come when you call, you rely much more heavily upon your ability to call wolves. Whereas, if you're far more reliant on your own active abilities and skills, then perhaps you'd only be at the point with summoning that 2 wolves come when you call wolves. *shrug* That could work, on its own, possibly.

 

But, I think the idea of quite literally summoning specific creatures treads too closely tothe idea of an animal companion and/or kind of stomps all over the lore (if that animal is going so far out of its way to always be nearby as you trek around the world, why must it be summoned to battle in the first place? Why isn't it simply accompanying you?).

Edited August 18, 2013 by Lephys

[josan motierre]

Kind of like... if your friend is trapped in a building, and a fire's started, you might run in there at risk to yourself. But, if the entire building is literally collapsing in a giant flaming mass, you probably won't go just leap into a literal burning pile of rubble and start trying to dig your friend out at the cost of all your flesh melting off.

That, and I imagine that wolves who are simply helping you because they like you are still going to get to a point at which they're all "Umm, you're really cool and all, but we REALLY need to go back to our den and tend our wounds." In other words, they don't owe you their lives. They just owe you SOME risk.

 

...

 

But, I think the idea of quite literally summoning specific creatures treads too closely tothe idea of an animal companion and/or kind of stomps all over the lore (if that animal is going so far out of its way to always be nearby as you trek around the world, why must it be summoned to battle in the first place? Why isn't it simply accompanying you?).

 

 

I think that I understand your proposal better now. It is a good one. I also like how you said that the creatures do not need to be specific. With that in mind, the druid could call for aid and have a random animal (or random group of animals) come to his aid. These animals could be made more believable by making them appropriate to the region the druid casts the spell in. For example, a forest might yield a grizzly bear, giant spiders or a wolf pack whereas a desert might bring forth salamanders or giant scorpions.

 

Perhaps you could clarify something for me:

 

Let's say, for example, a druid called for aid and a pack of wolves came to his side. At what point in the battle would the wolves decide they'd had enough, or that the fight was too costly for them? Furthermore, what action would the wolves take upon reaching this decision?

[josan motierre]

1. Name your summons. This way they get more personal and gets roleplaying value rather than a "combat" asset. It becomes an extra companion instead of a Magical Spell. 

I'm not familiar with X-Com or Final Fantasy, so I can't comment on your other points.

 

I like the naming summons thing, and the notion that a summon would be able to be permanent thing, but then you have the whole balancing drama you need to think about as well.

 

The summon couldn't be as powerful and useful as another companion, unless it occupied a "Party slot". That would be interesting, but then the player would have to forgo any conversational dialogue. I can't imagine a story and conversation tree being feasible for a summon that is essentially a fully fledged companion. I doubt Obsidian has the time or the desire to do that. Therefore, the player is losing a bit of story line there.

 

If it was as capable as a companion, but had no dialogue, then that is very easy. The penalty for using it is that is serves exactly has a companion - therefore, you're down a party member as long as it's around. It could be preferable, actually. Golems are nice and quiet, and don't backchat.

 

But...

 

Assuming it didn't occupy a party slot, then it would need to be balanced some other way. There are a few methods for this that are in discussion currently:

 

1. It would be weaker than a companion and would have a penalty upon the summoner for using it (eg. reserved mana, time limit/duration [heaven forbid this one!], or some other means).
2. Or, as I and Lephy prefer, the summoner himself is actually as weak and helpless thing that needs his minions around just to survive or deal damage. They are his weapons and armour, literally.
3. Depending on its power, it could have a very real chance of turning around and killing you itself (as Mr. Magniloquent advocates)

[Osvir]

 

1. Name your summons. This way they get more personal and gets roleplaying value rather than a "combat" asset. It becomes an extra companion instead of a Magical Spell. 

I'm not familiar with X-Com or Final Fantasy, so I can't comment on your other points.

 

I like the naming summons thing, and the notion that a summon would be able to be permanent thing, but then you have the whole balancing drama you need to think about as well.

 

The summon couldn't be as powerful and useful as another companion, unless it occupied a "Party slot". That would be interesting, but then the player would have to forgo any conversational dialogue. I can't imagine a story and conversation tree being feasible for a summon that is essentially a fully fledged companion. I doubt Obsidian has the time or the desire to do that. Therefore, the player is losing a bit of story line there.

 

If it was as capable as a companion, but had no dialogue, then that is very easy. The penalty for using it is that is serves exactly has a companion - therefore, you're down a party member as long as it's around. It could be preferable, actually. Golems are nice and quiet, and don't backchat.

 

But...

 

Assuming it didn't occupy a party slot, then it would need to be balanced some other way. There are a few methods for this that are in discussion currently:

 

1. It would be weaker than a companion and would have a penalty upon the summoner for using it (eg. reserved mana, time limit/duration [heaven forbid this one!], or some other means).
2. Or, as I and Lephy prefer, the summoner himself is actually as weak and helpless thing that needs his minions around just to survive or deal damage. They are his weapons and armour, literally.
3. Depending on its power, it could have a very real chance of turning around and killing you itself (as Mr. Magniloquent advocates)

 

What I am proposing is merely the capability to name your "Summon Monster III". Instead off summoning some random critters you could instead have 3 pre-determined weak/medium critters that you've named.

 

The capabilities of the summons would be exactly the same as before (they don't get stronger or weaker just because you put a name on it), the difference would be "aesthetics" or "roleplaying" value.

 

Let's take this example:

Spell Name: "Summon Two Imps"

 

OR

 

"Summon Humpti & Dumpti"

 

Mechanically the Spell would do the exact same thing that it did before. So, in essence, the Spell Effect would not do anything except just having a different name. However, if Humpti or Dumpti would die in battle (because they weren't unsummoned or whatnot in time), they die and you get to summon a new (although exactly the same) Imp that you can rename. The suggestion of point Nr. 1 is 100% roleplaying value.

 

Though, it would be nice to get some sort of "Summons Hall of Fame" in the description of the spell, somehow. If Humpti dies, it could perhaps be logged in the description of the Spell, "Humpti was killed by a Fire Elemental" (Simplistic), but I admit that might give Obsidian some minor aches in terms of coding that specific [Description Edit] based on [Target Creature] and [Target Summon] (I think it is a fairly simple code sequence, it would still take some time to create, bugtest and such... optimistically I guess on an hour or two~).

[Osvir]

cont. @josan motierre

 

I do really like the proposals that:

1, A sort of Sustained Cost would be in effect (I'd like to add in here that... perhaps it could be a rising Sustain Cost over time? See Nr. 3)

2, Summons being both the Weapon and Armor of the Summoner (IF you can build any Class into a Full-Summoner Class)

3, Summons turning on you because your "power" isn't strong enough for whatever reason. A rising Sustain Cost over time could imply a sort of power struggle. But I would like to say that this should only be applicable for Mid to High Tier summons.

 

- Low-Tier Summons should be fairly simple to control I imagine, specially if you're a High-Tier Wizard calling out some Low-Tier minions.

- But if you're a Low-Tier Wizard summoning a Mid-Tier Summon it could be struggle.

- But, again, if you're a High-Tier Wizard controlling a Mid-Tier minion it should, again, be fairly simple.

I also want to add and clarify that my suggestion that Summons would be "Permanent" is not quite what I meant. I meant that if you do not Unsummon them and keep them in battle (Only relevant for Unique/Legendary/Epic High-Tier Summons) they can potentially die and can't be summoned again. It is not meant to apply for ALL summons (of course). If there are millions and millions of Imps in the "Summonable Realm of Summons", then they never "run out".. so to speak.

If there's 100'000 Devil Hounds, then that too should translate to an Infinite amount of summons.

But if there's only 1 Kragashlamanakahakadakk Summoning Spell (Kragashlamanahak... kak.. lak...hakadakk????? **** it) Demon Overlord in the Realm of Summons (or wherever these things come from), then there should only be 1 available. 

Summoning that 1 Single Demon that exists in the realm of PE and then if that 1 Single Demon dies, then that's it, you wouldn't be able to summon 1 more because you only had 1 contract with that 1 Single Demon. And when it's dead it is dead. And if there is only 1 Single Demon like this, I imagine that it should at least be quite powerful, which could even further make it more difficult to:
A, Contract in the first place
B, Maintain/Sustain during battle

The sole reason why I am suggesting this is because that could make 1 or 2 Summons "extraordinaire" in PE. It could make them matter lots, and that in itself makes it more interesting (imo). As for balancing it, well, long "cooldown"? (Once an In-Game Week type of summoning procedure? Limited In-Game Ingredients/Components making it so you can only summon it three, four times at most a full game?)

 

As for the examples and concepts above, might not be something to follow to heart but I am merely throwing out "sketches" of a much larger idea.

If I summon Kragash.... whatever I typed up there^... I don't want an opposing Enemy AI be able to Summon it as well.

Which takes me to the finale of this post:

The Enemy team has a Summoner on their side. How can they mess with your Summons? How can you mess with theirs? Does Obsidian have enough resources to build upon a large pool of Summons and Summoning Mechanics? (Because in my head it starts to sound like its own entire Class that could fit well into Expansion content, because I imagine how freaking badass a fully developed "original" Summoner Class could be, and because Klarth is one of my favorite characters of all time because of his abilities... and of course because of his personality too but the concept of his "Summoning" is pretty neat and cool imo... ruuun ooon senteneeence/paragraph!!   )

Edited August 20, 2013 by Osvir

[Lephys]

Perhaps you could clarify something for me:

 

Let's say, for example, a druid called for aid and a pack of wolves came to his side. At what point in the battle would the wolves decide they'd had enough, or that the fight was too costly for them? Furthermore, what action would the wolves take upon reaching this decision?

I'm not really sure. That bit was more of a tentative idea. I was just thinking that, without some means of controlling your ability to summon them, you end up with the "they're just free, extra allies." And, the whole domination/direct-control thing doesn't seem to fit, since that doesn't seem very much like a Druid. "I love nature so much, I FORCE SENTIENT CREATURES WITHIN IT TO DO MY BIDDING! MUAHAHAHA!"

 

Ehh, I would assume that the death of your Druid would probably affect those wolf friends' desire to continue the fight. Or, as was mentioned, if you're fighting (for example's sake) a Balrog, and you're all "Yes! Go, wolves! ATTACK THAT BALROG, HEAD-ON!". I would think that, at the very least, they would be quite hesitant to do so. They might TRY to fight the Balrog, but, maybe this is more an issue of AI? Maybe they just sort of keep their distance, and/or kind of think "are you crazy?", and if they don't get a valid target (or you don't somehow disable the Balrog's ability to smite them in half with ease the second they get near), they leave early?

 

Hmmm... yeah, I guess now I'm thinking it might be more of an issue of AI; of how effective your called allies are, rather than whether or not they come or how long they stay, etc. Maybe their morale is most heavily tied to their own well-being? If one gets badly sworded in the haunch, it's probably not going to go "BUT I NEED TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR SOME REASON!", I suppose. Unless it's avenging something. I mean, it's basically just doing your Druid a favor. It doesn't have some personal life-debt to your specific Druid. Again, that would be more of an actual animal companion than the calling of amiable allies from nature.

 

So, to be honest, I don't really know how to handle that. But, from a broad perspective, maybe it should simply be the fact that you can't directly control them? Maybe you have some degree of direct control (issue targets, tell them when to do certain things or which behavior to use, etc.) so long as nothing (morale?) overrides this?

 

In this type of summon, and in most, really, I DO advocate the "number of charges"-type limitation rather than the duration one. There's too much wasted time, if you ask me, in having wolves that are all "Hey, man... I know I said we'd help, but, it's been like a minute. Yeah, yeah, I know most of that was spent chasing this sniper down who was fleeing from combat, and I JUST caught up to him, but... it's time for us to go, 8D!" I think it makes more sense to actually quantify the number of attacks/abilities they can use (still abstracted, obviously), or how much damage they can take before they decide to limp away (not so abstracted). In regard to how to handle summoning, this seems like it makes it feel much more a part of your offensive capabilities, rather than just some temporary aid. Like arrows in a quiver. You don't just lose the remaining arrows if you don't fire them all in 3 minutes, yet you still have a limitation on how many total arrows you have with which to fill the quiver (kind of like re-summoning allies).

 

Of course, there could still be a time limit, but it could be significantly longer rather than being the sole limiting factor. You know, "20 attacks OR 10 minutes, whichever comes first," so you can't just prance around with wolf allies all the time while they don't really do anything (again sort of wandering into companion territory rather than simply friendly called aid).

 

 

@ Osvir:

 

As long as the summoned creature is actually one and the same, every time you summon it (progression/development aside), I think naming it could be a very nice touch. Changing the name of the spell/ability according to your name can't be any harder than plugging your character's name into all the dialogues in the game.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Lephys

[Greydragon]

You have a good point there; how often in BG2 did you see the kobolds you summon get splattered by something far stronger? Really summoning allies/creatures should match the situation; you send them against something more than a couple of levels higher, they should run as long as they have free will. Lets say they can't really gauge people, but animals/monsters however is quite different.

Also for druid summons perhaps an alpha leads the group of summoned animals; if that is critically injured the group morale drops, if a member dies they take it hard. If the alpha dies they panic and possibly flee.  

[Lephys]

The problem I'm wrestling with in using morale is this:

 

Depending on the situation, an event like the Druid's (or even an alpha's) death could lead to either increased panic and desire to flee OR increased tenacity and the desire for vengeance. Seems like a morale system would have to figure out which effect to generate under which circumstances. Maybe that could be handled with a simplish system, but I'm not sure off the top of my head.

 

And yes, just to be clear, IF you're, say, a Wizard, and you're allowed to forcibly pluck wolves from the Elemental Plane of Wolves and will them to attack something, they should probably never flee. If you direct them to jump off a cliff, they should probably do it. BUT, if the wolves aren't actually being forced to help you, then it makes perfect sense that they wouldn't jump off a cliff just because you set that goal before them.

[Greydragon]

However if you add in a sub-leader you make it more logical; the alpha as the driving force of the animal pack. It might be willing to let a member or two die; hunting dangerous prey has that risk, but it's own life or the majority of the group take priority.

[Lephys]

True, but that still doesn't address the issue. If the druid dies, what reason do the wolves have to fight for the remaining people? And/or do they even act on the "Meh, unfortunately we have no more direct allies here, as we owe you nothing, non-Druids!" idea, or instead on the "OMG! YOU KILLED OUR FRIEND! YOU'LL PAY YOU SONS OF BEETCHES!" idea? Same with the alpha/sub-leader. If he dies, do the others scatter, or do they frenzy?

Edited August 21, 2013 by Lephys

[Greydragon]

We can't really say until we know the actual mechanics of the game; lets say give each a percentage chance, increased by the druid's level. If the druid goes down, summons respond with fifty/fifty fight frantically or flee. A feat or skill increases this to seventy/thirty. In the case of Alpha going down the pack has 40/60 fight to the death or flee, increased by the earlier feat to 60/40. Morale increases or lowers chances by +/- 15%.

[Gfted1]

Oh god please no morale failure/running away by the enemies.

[PrimeJunta]

Why not?

[Greydragon]

I'm not proposing it is expanded to the party or even mage summons; merely druid summoned animal packs, which technically only come to help because the druid asked nicely. 

[Gfted1]

Why not?

Because I can envision having to chase a xvart across the screen to kill him just to exit "combat mode", for no xp (or even worse, you need that last kill to earn the "quest experience"), so I can walk all the way back to the rest spot to heal up from the battle. Just one of those things that sounds like its going to be a pain due to the way PE is being structured.

[Greydragon]

 

Why not?

Because I can envision having to chase a xvart across the screen to kill him just to exit "combat mode", for no xp (or even worse, you need that last kill to earn the "quest experience"), so I can walk all the way back to the rest spot to heal up from the battle. Just one of those things that sounds like its going to be a pain due to the way PE is being structured.

 

The alternative is for the 'escaping' enemy to simply disappear if it reaches a certain distance from the party's visual range, with the assumption that it can no longer be caught because of the head-start. 

[josan motierre]

Summoning that 1 Single Demon that exists in the realm of PE and then if that 1 Single Demon dies, then that's it, you wouldn't be able to summon 1 more because you only had 1 contract with that 1 Single Demon. And when it's dead it is dead.

 

That is a most intriguing and cool idea. It'd lend itself very nicely to a bunch of possibly summoner specific quests that somehow involve a pact with a demon which obligates it to assist you. Or perhaps even better, some quests have a summoner-specific outcome. Although the summoner would have to be careful to dismiss it or protect it somehow, for should it die in combat this unique summon would be lost.

 

I can't think of a good story line for such a quest at the moment... but I think it'd have to involve tricking the entity somehow, or defeating it so utterly that it submits to your contract or faces destruction. I can't think of too many creatures that would be willing to give someone the ability to summon them at will and force them to fight to their deaths.

 

Perhaps a quest could go something like this:

 

trange and terrible rumours have come from Wicking - a relatively minor and unknown land, with a relatively unknown lord called Benedict. Benedict has always been kind and fair to his people, and the atrocities supposedly committed in his lands run contrary to his good reputation. Upon investigation, the player discovers that this lord has been assassinated by a demon who has been impersonating him and doing unspeakable things with the lord's power. Upon defeating this demon in combat, the demon is left to the players mercy.

 

The player can:

A) Kill the demon (as any good paladin would do)

B) Banish the demon back to its home realm, but with a condition. It must sign a pact with the player which means that the player can summon it forth at will to fight and to die.

C) Some other equally brilliant quest resolution that I can't think of at the moment

 

Should the player choose B, this would grant the player a unique spell of summoning. As Osvir describes, this contract is specific to the demon and is invalid once the demon dies and no longer exists. I think it's good because it explains the contract in lore and makes it believable, gives players a new way to solve a quest of this kind, and gives summoners a nifty spell.

 

What do you think?

[Gfted1]

The alternative is for the 'escaping' enemy to simply disappear if it reaches a certain distance from the party's visual range, with the assumption that it can no longer be caught because of the head-start.

Sure, as long as it isn't required to kill that last enemy to be considered having completed the "quest experience" requirement.

[PrimeJunta]

 

Because I can envision having to chase a xvart across the screen to kill him just to exit "combat mode", for no xp (or even worse, you need that last kill to earn the "quest experience"), so I can walk all the way back to the rest spot to heal up from the battle. Just one of those things that sounds like its going to be a pain due to the way PE is being structured.

 

 

Yeah, that sounds super annoying. I hope they don't do that; it would be intentionally **** design. 

 

I would, however, like to be able to win battles by running the monsters off (perhaps to regroup and face me again later?). But chasing xvarts as a quest objective sounds annoying.

 

I'm not too worried though; they're good designers and if they put in morale failure I'm fairly certain they'll do their best to make it improve gameplay rather than add busywork.

[Gfted1]

Running them off (dropping out of combat mode), even if they regroup, sounds like a good compromise.

 

I also hope PE is smart enough to indicate to the player that they still need to perform to achieve the quest experience reward.

[Osvir]

 

Summoning that 1 Single Demon that exists in the realm of PE and then if that 1 Single Demon dies, then that's it, you wouldn't be able to summon 1 more because you only had 1 contract with that 1 Single Demon. And when it's dead it is dead.

 

That is a most intriguing and cool idea. It'd lend itself very nicely to a bunch of possibly summoner specific quests that somehow involve a pact with a demon which obligates it to assist you. Or perhaps even better, some quests have a summoner-specific outcome. Although the summoner would have to be careful to dismiss it or protect it somehow, for should it die in combat this unique summon would be lost.

 

I can't think of a good story line for such a quest at the moment... but I think it'd have to involve tricking the entity somehow, or defeating it so utterly that it submits to your contract or faces destruction. I can't think of too many creatures that would be willing to give someone the ability to summon them at will and force them to fight to their deaths.

 

Perhaps a quest could go something like this:

 

Strange and terrible rumours have come from Wicking - a relatively minor and unknown land, with a relatively unknown lord called Benedict. Benedict has always been kind and fair to his people, and the atrocities supposedly committed in his lands run contrary to his good reputation. Upon investigation, the player discovers that this lord has been assassinated by a demon who has been impersonating him and doing unspeakable things with the lord's power. Upon defeating this demon in combat, the demon is left to the players mercy.

 

The player can:

A) Kill the demon (as any good paladin would do)

B) Banish the demon back to its home realm, but with a condition. It must sign a pact with the player which means that the player can summon it forth at will to fight and to die.

C) Some other equally brilliant quest resolution that I can't think of at the moment

 

Should the player choose B, this would grant the player a unique spell of summoning. As Osvir describes, this contract is specific to the demon and is invalid once the demon dies and no longer exists. I think it's good because it explains the contract in lore and makes it believable, gives players a new way to solve a quest of this kind, and gives summoners a nifty spell.

 

What do you think?

I like it. Perhaps an entirely different path, the "Archaeologist" approach. Searching for Old Scriptures and Poems that could lead to a clue that somehow reveals the Demon's true name. And if you know the name when you encounter the demon you would be its "Master" instantly and wouldn't need to fight it. "Bow to me Demon, for I know thee true name!".

 

And a suggestion:

C) Chance resolution: The Demon escapes, in one or two ways.

C1: You contract the Demon. But during a power struggle it wins and opens a portal to its realm.

C2: It escapes during the first battle.

 

What happens next is for the Player to chase the Demon through the portal and then try to contract and/or kill it in its own realm (Depending on what type of character you play as). Aaaah, I dunno ^^

[JFSOCC]

I like the idea of having some summons (not all) be mortal and not summonable if killed.

It'd make for interesting play for anyone playing a summoner to search for summon spells throughout the game and not waste them as cannon-fodder.