Changing zooming and angles?

[Hormalakh]

I'm not sure if there is going to be zooming or not, but I had an idea that sort of involved that. As we know, the backgrounds in PE are going to be prerendered and our models are going to be 3D. However, the prerendered backgrounds are going to be first modeled in 3D. That allows the artists to play with changing the perspectives whenever we are in "smaller rooms." I believe JSawyer talked about changing the angles shown whenever the party would be in a building, but I think this can be taken further. Imagine this tomb (and many similar "small rooms" in BG2.)

 

 

Now imagine if the camera was changed, and the room was zoomed in. The room would feel a lot bigger, and more could be done within the room. Imagine that you could search a corner of the room. You could change the feel of the experience, by just changing the angling and the zooming of the camera.You can see the tomb and the lich that comes out of it a little better. That can make for a more terrifying experience. It's more up-close and personal.

 

Of course, it would still be isometric and not 1st person.

 

Now, perhaps the narrative sequence requires a more "close" feel. Perhaps, an NPC is sharing a secret with you in this room. But now you can see the room a little better. Imagine how the atmosphere of this room could be changed just by zooming in a little and changing the angle of the camera. Imagine meeting in a small room, lit only by a singular candle. Your party shifting in their gear and a singular individual talking to you by that candle-light.

 

"Coo! Changes the atmosphere quick as ye blink!"

Edited December 1, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

Here's another image that was epic in BG2. Imagine just zooming in and changing the angle slightly oculd have totally changed the atmosphere. It could've made the dragon seem even more amazing.

 

[BasaltineBadger]

The project is pretty low budget, I think that Obsidian shouldn't experiment too much. Besides, every change in perspective would mean drawing the whole map again which is time consuming.

[Hormalakh]

The project is pretty low budget, I think that Obsidian shouldn't experiment too much. Besides, every change in perspective would mean drawing the whole map again which is time consuming.

 

No. You misunderstand. The whole room would be "drawn" at a different perspective. And it isn't consuming. Everything is already done from a camera anyway. The 3d modeling of the landscape is already prerendered. You set your camera at the direction you want, the zoom value, and the angle at which it is projecting and whatever your background renders, you just set your 3D models to render at that same camera angle. The monsters are 3D models, so you can see different angles. Your party is at a different angle automatically. and any 3d models also render at that new camera zoom and angle. It should be pretty easy to do.

 

The question is, does it make for a better and more engaging narrative if you do mess with camera angles and zooming? I think it can be effective in certain situations and locations, like small rooms.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Hormalakh

[SqueakyCat]

Hormalakh, I don't know if you caught this statement by Sawyer as to his thoughts:

 

For open exterior environments, we are experimenting (as in this image) with rendering scenes from an angle that is closer to Fallout and Fallout 2, about 15 degrees lower than the BG/IWD camera angles. There are a few reasons for this, the main one being that tall vertical objects can be seen in greater detail. Because the environments are open, the practical issues of overlapping walls and obstructions are not usually a problem. We will continue to experiment with this angle and the higher angle on interiors to see what mix works.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61330-screenshot-what-yall-think/page__st__40?do=findComment&comment=1234960

 

So, I guess they're still experimenting with the concept.

[Ieo]

Hormalakh, I don't know if you caught this statement by Sawyer as to his thoughts:

 

For open exterior environments, we are experimenting (as in this image) with rendering scenes from an angle that is closer to Fallout and Fallout 2, about 15 degrees lower than the BG/IWD camera angles. There are a few reasons for this, the main one being that tall vertical objects can be seen in greater detail. Because the environments are open, the practical issues of overlapping walls and obstructions are not usually a problem. We will continue to experiment with this angle and the higher angle on interiors to see what mix works.

 

http://forums.obsidi...40#entry1234960

 

So, I guess they're still experimenting with the concept.

 

I interpreted that quote to mean they're still experimenting with camera angle in the globally static sense--where it will be for the entire game.

 

At first I thought OP meant this idea, but it sounds like OP's idea is to have different camera angles for specific area types, just a single re-angle iteration instead of multiples, so the work on backgrounds should theoretically be the same. On the other hand, the avatar animations may require multiple renders at different angles+positions, including all combat animations and all armor and weapons, so that may not be worth it for only an atmosphere effect.... Dunno.

[SqueakyCat]

Ieo - I'm sure you're right as my technical expertise could be written on the back of a match cover.

 

I misunderstood what Hormalakh was saying apparently.

 

It's good to see you posting more again!

[Ieo]

Ieo - I'm sure you're right as my technical expertise could be written on the back of a match cover.

 

I misunderstood what Hormalakh was saying apparently.

 

It's good to see you posting more again!

 

No worries. I suspect this topic really belongs in the Engine/Technology subforum, really.

 

And thanks, between work and night school, Nov-Dec are really the hell months! I'm too tired to even play BG:EE--how horrible is that?

 

(We now return you to the topic at hand.)

[AwesomeOcelot]

I'm fine with a constant zoom and perspective. I'd prefer they spend less resources on the 3D character models and just not zoom in ever. Also making zoomed in rooms would require more detail, therefore more time and resources.

[BasaltineBadger]

The project is pretty low budget, I think that Obsidian shouldn't experiment too much. Besides, every change in perspective would mean drawing the whole map again which is time consuming.

 

No. You misunderstand. The whole room would be "drawn" at a different perspective. And it isn't consuming. Everything is already done from a camera anyway. The 3d modeling of the landscape is already prerendered. You set your camera at the direction you want, the zoom value, and the angle at which it is projecting and whatever your background renders, you just set your 3D models to render at that same camera angle. The monsters are 3D models, so you can see different angles. Your party is at a different angle automatically. and any 3d models also render at that new camera zoom and angle. It should be pretty easy to do.

 

The question is, does it make for a better and more engaging narrative if you do mess with camera angles and zooming? I think it can be effective in certain situations and locations, like small rooms.

 

But there is a 2D hand-drawn image on top of the 3D model, wouldn't they have to have the that image drawn again?

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

The project is pretty low budget, I think that Obsidian shouldn't experiment too much. Besides, every change in perspective would mean drawing the whole map again which is time consuming.

 

No. You misunderstand. The whole room would be "drawn" at a different perspective. And it isn't consuming. Everything is already done from a camera anyway. The 3d modeling of the landscape is already prerendered. You set your camera at the direction you want, the zoom value, and the angle at which it is projecting and whatever your background renders, you just set your 3D models to render at that same camera angle. The monsters are 3D models, so you can see different angles. Your party is at a different angle automatically. and any 3d models also render at that new camera zoom and angle. It should be pretty easy to do.

 

The question is, does it make for a better and more engaging narrative if you do mess with camera angles and zooming? I think it can be effective in certain situations and locations, like small rooms.

 

 

But there is a 2D hand-drawn image on top of the 3D model, wouldn't they have to have the that image drawn again?

 

You're right, painting would have to be redone if you used the same room model at different vertical angles. Also the 3D models will be made for one perspective, not as complete 3D scenes, like 3D Skyboxs in Source engine games, often two or three sides aren't there because they're only ever seen from one angle. So you couldn't have a room be at isometric or cavalier oblique, then move the angle horizontally but moving it vertically would still be possible, although it would have to be repainted.

Edited December 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[JFSOCC]

the commandos games alloyed you to look at the map from 4 angles, and they were isometric (no?)

[AwesomeOcelot]

the commandos games alloyed you to look at the map from 4 angles, and they were isometric (no?)

 

I haven't seen that in gameplay videos, this would only be achieved in a 2D isometric game by having four assets for one object. That wouldn't be that hard considering the game doesn't look that much better than C&C or Red Alert, with repeated objects placed on tiles, both those games I believe had 8 assets for moving objects that rotated. It depends whether Obsidian want to do that for more angles or if they want to spend their time making rooms look unique or varied. In Commandos a lot of the assets seem to have 4 to 8 versions already just viewing at one angle, objects are placed on the map at different angles, two identical buildings next to each other are placed at angles e.g. facing north and north-west.

Edited December 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[Osvir]

You can zoom in BGEE and it's cool, but when you zoom in too close it gets pixelated (due to paperdoll resolution no doubt). P:E will obviously be more high-tech.

 

It's like zooming in on a picture in "Picture Viewer", scroll up zooms in, scroll down zooms out.

 

Angles are a bit more tricky with a 2D image, you'd have to draw the image from several different views.

 

EDIT: Some areas could even be oddly angled (like the picture in the attachment) as an illusion, or a magical area where you walk on walls or walk upside down on the roof~

Edited December 2, 2012 by Osvir

[AwesomeOcelot]

EDIT: Some areas could even be oddly angled (like the picture in the attachment) as an illusion, or a magical area where you walk on walls or walk upside down on the roof~

 

*Tilts head* I hope not, that's giving me neck ache.

[rjshae]

I think that the types of sudden shifts in scale and angle described by the OP would have limited usefulness and may be disconcerting. Changes in mood and atmosphere can be accomplished by other means: sounds, music, colors, illumination, timing, or cut-scenes.

[Dragoonlordz]

Zooming, yes I would like to have both for battlefield and better locational awareness plus ability to have better look at your characters and equipment; rotation of camera angles I do not require and do not care about. As long as any set items or scenery become's a form of transpanacy so do not lose sight of the characters or items behind them, then thats all I require as far as angles are concerned.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Hormalakh]

I think that the types of sudden shifts in scale and angle described by the OP would have limited usefulness and may be disconcerting. Changes in mood and atmosphere can be accomplished by other means: sounds, music, colors, illumination, timing, or cut-scenes.

 

Well it's worth considering and testing. They are in pre-production anyway: now would be the time to try these sorts of things out. It might not be at disconcerting as you think, but I do agree that if it is too jarring, it would be counter-productive.

 

I'm not sure everyone actually understands my idea. It's a little difficult to convey. Basically, the camera for the outside areas and in the city would be at one certain angle and zoom/focal-length. Then in certain rooms, where it can convey another mood, you have different angles and zoom lengths. But that probably still doesn't help clarify....oh well.

[Osvir]

EDIT: Some areas could even be oddly angled (like the picture in the attachment) as an illusion, or a magical area where you walk on walls or walk upside down on the roof~

 

*Tilts head* I hope not, that's giving me neck ache.

 

Obviously the background picture would have to be accommodated and authentic to the "idea". Kind of like the Harry Potter staircase.

Sorry for the picture, couldn't find a better one (didn't look hard enough).

Edited December 3, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

Something else I'm thinking about...

 

Resident Evil pre-rendered 2D backgrounds. It'd be cool for some areas with a close-up on combat but... yeah maybe not, just throwing it out there.

[mstark]

@OP

 

A problem that I can see with the idea is that the game is going to have an orthographic projection, where objects that are further away from you still appear at the same size as those closest to you. The more you angle an image while using this technique, the stranger it will look.

 

Perspective Projection vs. Orthographic Projection illustrated:

 

 

If you lower the camera angle, you'd also expect things further from you to appear smaller, and things closer to you to appear larger (eg. your idea of a lich in a tomb "coming out of it"). This means you'd not only render the areas at a different angle, you'd render them using a different kind of projection. Perspective would also mean that, even though the background your characters are standing on is a static 2D image, the characters within it would need to appear slightly larger or smaller depending on the distance from the camera. It would be very hard to give something the feeling of coming out at you using orthographic projection.

 

Just a few thoughts, assuming I understood your idea correctly .

 

Edit,

as was pointed out in the post before mine, the technique to achieve what you're asking for was used in Resident Evil 2 (perspective 2D backgrounds with real-time 3D "depth" overlaid), though probably at a much lower angle than what you are imagining .

 

On Commandos: All their assets were rendered from 4 different angles from the original 3D piece. That's 4 times the rendering time, 4 times the amount of assets produced, and 4 times the post-production time painting over them & creating collision coordinates.

Edited December 3, 2012 by mstark

[mstark]

FF9 used a similar technique, where 2D backgrounds have perspective and as your character gets further away from the screen he becomes smaller:

 

AFAIK, this particular effect is impossible to achieve in PE because we'll have a free roaming camera, as opposed to a camera view locked to character movement. That said, there's nothing stopping them from rendering interiors orthographically at a lower angle (as they've said they're experimenting with), but this still won't achieve depth.

[Hormalakh]

^Yes, this is what I'm talking about, except I don't want characters to start getting smaller the further away you are (I don't want the isometric perspective to suddenly disappear.

Instead, imagine that the game is isometric when outdoors. Then when you go into a room, the camera becomes bird's eye (as an example! This isn't what I want!) kind of like the rooftop portion shown in the video. The camera angle has moved and it's zoomed outward. It can be used to imply something (for example, whenever you see a bird's eye view room you know that there is a shopkeeper. The 2d background can be pre-rendered at that bird's eye camera and you let your engine know to utilize that same camera to render 3d objects and your party.

 

Argh I don't want to draw this. I'm hoping the devs/artists understand what I'm saying and judge appropriately.

 

That said, there's nothing stopping them from rendering interiors orthographically at a lower angle (as they've said they're experimenting with), but this still won't achieve depth.

 

If zooming is disabled, I'm hoping they consider zooming in when in a small room. As for depth, I guess we'll have to see what the artists consider good.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[anek]

AFAIK, this particular effect is impossible to achieve in PE because we'll have a free roaming camera

 

It wouldn't be impossible to achieve, but it would be annoying to use.

[Agelastos]

Obviously the background picture would have to be accommodated and authentic to the "idea". Kind of like the Harry Potter staircase.

Sorry for the picture, couldn't find a better one (didn't look hard enough).

 

"Harry Potter staircase"? Is that what it's called now? M.C. Escher must be turning in his grave.

Bah! Humbug! Kids these days... *shakes cane at youths skateboarding on the sidewalk*

Edited December 4, 2012 by Agelastos