Torches!

[Osvir]

Torches! Do I need to say more? I guess I do.

 

Will there be expendable torches resources for deep dungeoneering and will it be an equipped slot (taking up the Sword slot). Seeing as it is a party game, one character who doesn't do much in battle could handle the light sourcing.

 

Perhaps be able to place flares, or markers in the dungeon (and not only on the mini-map).

 

It'd be easier to make something scary~horror if torches are included. Of course, Wizards should have abilities to light up (Gandalf style) as well as Flame Swords and the like.

 

Thoughts?

[Durinax]

I would like to see more of this, along with something along the lines of 'Afraid of the Dark' and 'Dark Sight' which gives boons based on the amount of light available.

 

Plus it adds in an interesting dynamic, because if you task your mage with lights then he will do it, but he will be so far back your front line will be basically in the dark, so you will ahve to come up with something inbetween

[Wulfic]

Im all for it. Dungeons should be daaaaaark as hell ( It always made me wonder who is litting the torches in the corridor of a looooooong abandoned dungeon ). TORCHES ALL THE WAY

[AGX-17]

Torches! Do I need to say more? I guess I do.

 

Will there be expendable torches resources for deep dungeoneering and will it be an equipped slot (taking up the Sword slot). Seeing as it is a party game, one character who doesn't do much in battle could handle the light sourcing.

 

Perhaps be able to place flares, or markers in the dungeon (and not only on the mini-map).

 

It'd be easier to make something scary~horror if torches are included. Of course, Wizards should have abilities to light up (Gandalf style) as well as Flame Swords and the like.

 

Thoughts?

 

There's nothing scary about an isometric overhead view and combat results determined by random number generators.

 

Hauling around a wagon full of sticks, old soiled rags and flammable liquids to the bottom of a dungeon doesn't seem like the ideal solution unless it's the only option.

[Archmage Silver]

This isn't Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. This isn't Legend of Grimrock. We're talking about an RPG using an isometric camera view - do you really think that the best option to go with in dungeons is to show a barely visible screen to the player?

 

And what about combat, do you develop a mechanism for dropping the torch or do you fight without your shield? Does the torch set you on fire on critical misses? Do low level wizards need to use power for maintaining light spells instead of using more direct damage spells? ... Considering the fact that you only use torches or light spells a fraction of the playing time, it would seem that the workload needed for including torches isn't really worth the end result at all.

[PrimeJunta]

This isn't Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. This isn't Legend of Grimrock. We're talking about an RPG using an isometric camera view - do you really think that the best option to go with in dungeons is to show a barely visible screen to the player?

 

And what about combat, do you develop a mechanism for dropping the torch or do you fight without your shield? Does the torch set you on fire on critical misses? Do low level wizards need to use power for maintaining light spells instead of using more direct damage spells? ... Considering the fact that you only use torches or light spells a fraction of the playing time, it would seem that the workload needed for including torches isn't really worth the end result at all.

 

Why not just use whatever weapon mechanics are already in? Treat the torch as a one-handed flaming club -2 with a timeout. You could wield it with your off-hand instead of a shield, or with your main hand as a weapon (see Rings, Lord of, encounter on Weathertop.)

 

What torches do imply is a dynamic lighting system. That's a lot more than torches: it means modifiers to skills depending on light levels, creatures that function better in the dark or by daylight, and all manner of other fun stuff. If that's in, torches and other light sources are an obvious part of it.

 

I think that woudl be cool, although by no means indispensable, of course. I'm sure there's lots of other stuff they could do instead.

[Sacred_Path]

would be cool if there were many implements that could be used in the established ways, not just torches but pickaxes, ropes etc. Unfortunately PE isn't that kind of game (Thorvalla might be)

[Osvir]

There's nothing scary about an isometric overhead view and combat results determined by random number generators.

 

Since when did the perspective determine if it is scary or not? I've read books that have put me on my toes, one book I was putting down because I got too scared. The isometric view isn't scary, first person view isn't scary either (otherwise I'd be afraid all the time IRL!!). Fear/Horror is all in the writing, the music and the atmosphere and the environment.

 

This isn't Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. This isn't Legend of Grimrock. We're talking about an RPG using an isometric camera view - do you really think that the best option to go with in dungeons is to show a barely visible screen to the player?

 

And what about combat, do you develop a mechanism for dropping the torch or do you fight without your shield? Does the torch set you on fire on critical misses? Do low level wizards need to use power for maintaining light spells instead of using more direct damage spells? ... Considering the fact that you only use torches or light spells a fraction of the playing time, it would seem that the workload needed for including torches isn't really worth the end result at all.

 

To your first question. Yes. For immersion.

 

To your paragraph, Infravision, Torches, Utevo Lux (if you know Tibia, it is a maintainable spell that costs some Mana then it is on for a period of time, hardly any cost to mana. You could do it once or twice and have light through a dungeon). Crystals could have a glow, kind of glowsticks (that never burn out) that can be easily enchanted or put onto the belt or on the shield. Flame Swords, flame shields, flame spells.

 

I think because it is Isometric that torches instantly become much more interesting than LoG or TES. Look at Eschalon, great game, isometric, torches. Single character SP RPG game. Excellent example where it is working, but I've got to admit that it is LoG that inspires me.

 

Would your Fighter have to drop his shield? No, your Wizard lights the area up, why would he even need to hold a torch? Maybe your Rogue holds the torch. Maybe your Cipher has an ability so he can see where enemies are close by (Like in League of Legends, where some champions have abilities that makes you "Visible" on the minimap). A Chanter could have a Sonic Vision ability.

 

How can you be innovative with torches and limited visibility?

 

The 3 most important tools when I was hitchhiking America was told to me by my hitchhiking friends (we had barely any money at all):

1. Flashlight (I went through 5~6 of them during a 3 month travel)

2. Spoon/Fork & Cup/Porcelain (Something to put food on and something to eat it with)

3. Knife/Weapon (I didn't have one, I had a walking stick)

 

Light = Super important

 

Finally, yes it isn't priority 1 to get it into the game. But I'm sure there are ways to be innovative with it, and ways to implement it cost effectively.

 

Oooh great site. It doesn't talk for torches entirely, but it talks about the immersion aspects. With a magical fantasy setting like P:E torches doesn't need to be the entire light source (of course), if you missed it in the post I'll summarize it:

 

* Torch

* Flame Items

* Crystals that pulsate light (which you could put on items, making your shield provide light)

* Vision Spells (See enemies visible in Fog of War)

* Light Spells

* Sonic Spells

* Lanterns

* Floating Orbs that provide light for the party.

* Druid could have an animal that sees well in darkness

Etc. etc.

 

Something I thought of by PrimeJunta's comment. Fending off wolves in the wilderness with torches and fire. Throwing torches, setting your enemy aflame.

Can't find the clip I'm looking for but the Scarabs don't attack because of the torch.

 

How will my Ranger lit his Fire Arrows? Could the Ranger have a Bow and still have a Torch in his off-hand? Something he can stick into the ground or use to light his Fire Arrows? A torch doesn't even have to be wooden either. What about a metal torch? Or that helmet that lets me see in darkness.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[ogrezilla]

definitely not necessary, but I think dynamic lighting could be a very good mechanic for this type of game. Whether this is a game that should use it (being an intentional "throwback" type of game) I don't know.

[mstark]

There's nothing scary about an isometric overhead view and combat results determined by random number generators.

I'm going to assume you never played Diablo 1 as a kid. I'm also going to assume you never played Tibia in it's early days of extreme darkness. Even Diablo 2 used light radius to great effect, but was never as scary as Diablo 1 due to more exterior areas and less reliance on it for survival.

 

Utevo Lux

I literally jumped when I saw these words here. Never thought I would in a place like this! Old Antican here .

 

One of the first things I think about when I hear the words "dungeon crawling" is a limited light radius, with absolute darkness and mystery around the edges of your party. Diablo 1, Tibia, most early games with dungeon crawling scare-factor elements in fact, had this. I think this is a perfect place to drop this interview with Adam by TotalBiscuit:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-TBCrqERus&feature=g-u

 

where Adam briefly talks about torches and how they are working on trying to get dynamic lighting into a 2D landscape, and how that's possible with today's technology. I can't wait to see examples of this in action. In case you didn't listen through the interview, this also means that, yes, torches held by characters are at least being considered for the game .

 

If darkness in dungeons (complete blackness), deep forests (dull blue/grey twilight/darkness), and night-time (blue-ish twilight) has to be considered as a gameplay element, we'll start valuing weapons or pieces of equipment that glow (add light radius) so much more! I can't even begin to describe the feeling I get when imagining this in PE. Awesome. If darkness is going to be as common, or more common (night cycle + dungeons), than normal daylight, equipment with light modifiers will become very desirable (and look graphically stunning with new rendering technology).

 

Torches, lanterns, candles... and in a magical world, maybe all wizard staffs glow innately? (I imagine a staff channeling the powers of a soul lighting up when being held) . Maybe warrior adventurers always carry their precious Right of Light? Maybe Paladins glow with righteousness if they are devout enough (read: strong enough soul)? Maybe Monks are trained in fighting in the dark, giving them infravision? Maybe Ciphers, supposedly reading a lot, have access to lanterns that don't require a hand to hold them? Just some ideas. If there's darkness in the game, there should be plenty of ways to deal with it.

 

It'll be scary at the start, when you enter your first dungeon and realize "oh ****, I can't see anything", and the next time you go to the shop you won't ignore that torch again.

[rjshae]

What torches do imply is a dynamic lighting system. That's a lot more than torches: it means modifiers to skills depending on light levels, creatures that function better in the dark or by daylight, and all manner of other fun stuff. If that's in, torches and other light sources are an obvious part of it.

Real torches imply 3D shadows; from characters, furniture, objects, and walls. I suspect that isn't going to happen; we'll get a glowing, flickering halo instead. What I would be interested in seeing though are different light sources: various torches, lanterns, hooded lanterns, oil lamps, and candles.

 

As for a poorly lit night scenes, they could potentially use varying color saturation. Areas near light sources can display normal colors, while darkened areas can be displayed using a more monochromatic view. (Like a, say, blue-tinged black-and-white view representing night vision.) That would allow them to provide some illumination even in the darkened areas. I'm not sure how do-able this approach is though.

Edited December 1, 2012 by rjshae

[PrimeJunta]

As for a poorly lit night scenes, they could potentially use varying color saturation. Areas near light sources can display normal colors, while darkened areas can be displayed using a more monochromatic view. (Like a, say, blue-tinged black-and-white view representing night vision.) That would allow them to provide some illumination even in the darkened areas. I'm not sure how do-able this approach is though.

 

Doesn't sound hard at all, desaturating or otherwise playing with the color isn't any more difficult in principle than playing with the brightness. It would certainly look good.

[Osvir]

What torches do imply is a dynamic lighting system. That's a lot more than torches: it means modifiers to skills depending on light levels, creatures that function better in the dark or by daylight, and all manner of other fun stuff. If that's in, torches and other light sources are an obvious part of it.

Real torches imply 3D shadows; from characters, furniture, objects, and walls. I suspect that isn't going to happen; we'll get a glowing, flickering halo instead. What I would be interested in seeing though are different light sources: various torches, lanterns, hooded lanterns, oil lamps, and candles.

 

As for a poorly lit night scenes, they could potentially use varying color saturation. Areas near light sources can display normal colors, while darkened areas can be displayed using a more monochromatic view. (Like a, say, blue-tinged black-and-white view representing night vision.) That would allow them to provide some illumination even in the darkened areas. I'm not sure how do-able this approach is though.

 

Looking at Update #33. The back wall (the one we can't see from this perspective in the picture) doesn't even need to be modeled or textured. They only need to focus on the perspective we see. Looking at someone from the front you can't see what he looks like from the back. If that makes any sense.

 

It might happen. Buildings already seem to be models, which are objects, I recall Adam and Josh constantly speak something about (not actual quote!) "Our 3D Artists are thinking some pretty cool stuff". In the video with TotalBiscuit (Which deserves its own thread really) they speak about there is only one perspective. Bare with me I'm going to try and explain something which is difficult to explain:

 

Take a 3D Square object, seeing as we are only getting 1 perspective (2D) furniture could be modeled from only one perspective. Kind of like one of those toy kids books that have pictures that are fake "3D" when you open them. They would only need to model half an object, or sink half of the object through the 2D (so it looks like it is 2D still). Hmm kind of like this:

 

Iceberg technology! :'D

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[SophosTheWise]

Also darkness in general should matter:

 

[Osvir]

I have the ultimate solution!

 

Just make Godlike races "Glow in dark", problem solved xD

[AwesomeOcelot]

What torches do imply is a dynamic lighting system. That's a lot more than torches: it means modifiers to skills depending on light levels, creatures that function better in the dark or by daylight, and all manner of other fun stuff. If that's in, torches and other light sources are an obvious part of it.

Real torches imply 3D shadows; from characters, furniture, objects, and walls. I suspect that isn't going to happen; we'll get a glowing, flickering halo instead. What I would be interested in seeing though are different light sources: various torches, lanterns, hooded lanterns, oil lamps, and candles.

 

You can do impressive shadows without 3D, you just need lighting maps and filters.

 

Buildings already seem to be models...

 

They are already 3D because the backgrounds are being created in 3D then prerendered. That screenshot is not 3D models of buildings, that's just pathing models of buildings.

[AGX-17]

This isn't Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. This isn't Legend of Grimrock. We're talking about an RPG using an isometric camera view - do you really think that the best option to go with in dungeons is to show a barely visible screen to the player?

 

And what about combat, do you develop a mechanism for dropping the torch or do you fight without your shield? Does the torch set you on fire on critical misses? Do low level wizards need to use power for maintaining light spells instead of using more direct damage spells? ... Considering the fact that you only use torches or light spells a fraction of the playing time, it would seem that the workload needed for including torches isn't really worth the end result at all.

 

Why not just use whatever weapon mechanics are already in? Treat the torch as a one-handed flaming club -2 with a timeout. You could wield it with your off-hand instead of a shield, or with your main hand as a weapon (see Rings, Lord of, encounter on Weathertop.)

 

What torches do imply is a dynamic lighting system. That's a lot more than torches: it means modifiers to skills depending on light levels, creatures that function better in the dark or by daylight, and all manner of other fun stuff. If that's in, torches and other light sources are an obvious part of it.

 

I think that woudl be cool, although by no means indispensable, of course. I'm sure there's lots of other stuff they could do instead.

 

It's ludicrous enough that torches can be used to block in Skyrim, being made of generic wood that can be cleaved with a simple iron or steel woodcutter's axe, yet they can't be destroyed or damaged by Daedric greatswords once they've become "Torch."

 

What good is a torch going to be against a guy with +2 Steel Plate Armor or a vengeful wandering spirit? Like Archmage Silver said, this is a game with an isometric view focused on tactics, not visceral thrills like being scared of the dark or mashing M1 until the guy in front of you dies.

 

And Torches don't "imply a dynamic lighting system," dynamic lighting implies a dynamic lighting system. There were torches in games long before dynamic lighting systems. At the very earliest it was increasing the distance at which the black Z-buffer depth fog around the player's first person viewpoint began.

Edited December 1, 2012 by AGX-17

[PrimeJunta]

What good is a torch going to be against a guy with +2 Steel Plate Armor or a vengeful wandering spirit?

 

It would make him easier to see, silly.

 

[Dream]

This **** sounds awful. The need for torches would imply the environments would be too dark to see in without them.

 

Can you imagine scrolling around the map to see if you missed anything when everything except a tiny circle around your character is pitch black?

Edited December 1, 2012 by Dream

[PrimeJunta]

This **** sounds awful. The need for torches would imply the environments would be too dark to see in without them.

 

Can you imagine scrolling around the map to see if you missed anything when everything except a tiny circle around your character is pitch black?

 

Can you imaging walking around talking to people to find out if they have anything interesting to say? How boring and tedious and time-consuming! Wouldn't it be much more convenient if they had, like, a ! hovering above them so you'd know who to talk to? And hey, even better, they could mark the quest objective on the map and put a little arrow on the screen so you could go straight there without having to waste all that time exploring! Even more convenient, and you'd be even more certain of missing nothing!

 

Anyway, from the interview linked above, it appears torches and other light sources are already in, so presumably also darkness. So looks like you'll be disappointed on this point at least. You can always wait until someone mods darkness out, naturally, or mods the loot-highlighting-key in (if that's not already there).

[Dream]

This **** sounds awful. The need for torches would imply the environments would be too dark to see in without them.

 

Can you imagine scrolling around the map to see if you missed anything when everything except a tiny circle around your character is pitch black?

 

Can you imaging walking around talking to people to find out if they have anything interesting to say? How boring and tedious and time-consuming! Wouldn't it be much more convenient if they had, like, a ! hovering above them so you'd know who to talk to? And hey, even better, they could mark the quest objective on the map and put a little arrow on the screen so you could go straight there without having to waste all that time exploring! Even more convenient, and you'd be even more certain of missing nothing!

 

Anyway, from the interview linked above, it appears torches and other light sources are already in, so presumably also darkness. So looks like you'll be disappointed on this point at least. You can always wait until someone mods darkness out, naturally, or mods the loot-highlighting-key in (if that's not already there).

 

You can't design dungeons that are as complex as Watcher's Keep or Durlag's Tower if you have pitch black darkness everywhere unless you want your players to have a ****ing aneurism; I'd rather have complex and intricate dungeons than realistic light sources, but that's me.

 

As for the interview; hopefully they're just talking about having dynamic lighting and shadows (while having "total" darkness still appear like a greyed out fog of war), and not Doom 3 levels of absolute "can't see ****" darkness.

[PrimeJunta]

You can't design dungeons that are as complex as Watcher's Keep or Durlag's Tower if you have pitch black darkness everywhere unless you want your players to have a ****ing aneurism; I'd rather have complex and intricate dungeons than realistic light sources, but that's me. As for the interview; hopefully they're just talking about having dynamic lighting and shadows (while having "total" darkness still appear like a greyed out fog of war), and not Doom 3 levels of absolute "can't see ****" darkness.

 

Total pitch blackness could be frustrating, yes, if there was no automap to keep track of where you've been. I'm pretty sure they're aware of these kinds of issues though, having done a few games of this type.

 

However, I would expect torches and other carried light sources to serve some gameplay function if they're going to the trouble of putting them in, and not be there just for the pretties. My crystal ball is showing a cavern rendered in deep shades of bluish-gray, with a pool of flickering golden light surrounding the party's torch-bearer. Beyond the torchlight, shadows move...

[mstark]

You can't design dungeons that are as complex as Watcher's Keep or Durlag's Tower if you have pitch black darkness everywhere unless you want your players to have a ****ing aneurism; I'd rather have complex and intricate dungeons than realistic light sources, but that's me.

You do realize that both of these "dungeons" were very well lit and inhabited interiors? The torches you carry with your character aren't going to be the only light sources in the whole world.

 

The only place I'd expect serious darkness to be in place, and add to the gameplay, would be for example when exploring tombs, long abandoned dungeons, natural cave systems, or night time in a forest. Think along the lines of the uninhabited parts of the Underdark.

 

Also, I don't think anyone is suggesting designing darkness in such a way to make it inhibit gameplay, the designers aren't stupid, they wouldn't use it in an area where you're required to make out details in order to solve the puzzle. Unless torches are part of the puzzle. Carrying one or two light sources would likely light up a large enough area. By the way, "darkness" is already in most of the IE games in the shape of "fog of war", although that is more of a line-of-sight that's not dependent on a light source.

 

With darkness, line of sight would act as normal in any decently well lit area. I imagine that in a dark area you'd require a light source to get your line of sight.

Edited December 1, 2012 by mstark

[kabaliero]

i'd like dark nights and caves that require light source to walk around without penalties, yes

 

 

oh, and dungeons

 

right

 

Edited December 1, 2012 by kabaliero

[rjshae]

I like the level-0 light spell in D&D v3.5; it frees up a hand and doesn't require walking around with a stash of flammable torches. This worked very nicely in NWN2. Hopefully they will have something comparable to that in PE. At a higher level, perhaps they could have a magical light that illuminates the surroundings but doesn't give away your position?