Piracy and DRM

[Hormalakh]

Just make the game only available on Steam. Works as DRM but also has many benefits for the user, a perfect solution!

Not all steam games are DRM. DRM isn't necessarily the answer.

[Hormalakh]

I'm not a fan of DRM, but I didn't even know what it was until somewhat recently. If the DRM a game has does not hinder my ability to access the game I bought now or in future nor does it block modders, I won't even notice. I only oppose DRM as it harms me, the consumer, or limits game purchasing to buying a license that may run out at some undetermined point in the future. What I believe is that DRM can be, and often is, abusive so it should be avoided.

 

That said, I do wonder what prompted you to post this, Hormalakh. Was there discussion in the forums about people pirating or planning to? I was under the impression that P:E would be relatively pirate free due to the way it was funded. To be honest, I would prefer that P:E was sold only as a token effort and only online. Let the true revenue be produced by people backing the games before any work has been done. That's the only way that piracy can be stopped (rendered moot) completely.

 

Note: Due to the rate this thread is moving, it is possible this post is outdated. If I read every post before I posted, I never would. Here's hoping.

 

I've been reading a lot of the RPGCodex lately. The article from tweakguides was posted there. I sat and read the whole thing and thought about it. I've pirated in the long long past, using the same arguments that most pirates do (I didn't use the "because I can" one - that takes serious antisocial behavior). I feel responsible somehow now that I'm starting to develop a relationship with the developers here at Obsidian. They've listened to us the best they can and I better understand where they come from. It's just a different relationship.

 

 

Edit: I also do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out. P:E specifically might also be hurt. But I can't put numbers on it. It would be folly to do so.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Elerond]

DRM solutions that really can stop or significantly slow piracy cost nearly as much as PE's whole budget is. DRM's like steamworks are more to invented to stop selling of used licences than to stop piracy.

 

But if game in kickstarter would say that it will have more complex drm than what steam offers, I would not give money for it and this is because I don't want fund some unknow drm making company, but game makers themselves and kickstarter projects are mostly risk free for gamemaker's as they get funding for their games before they are done, and so piracy isn't similar economic risk for kickstarted games as it is for publisher funded games, usually.

[Hormalakh]

DRM solutions that really can stop or significantly slow piracy cost nearly as much as PE's whole budget is. DRM's like steamworks are more to invented to stop selling of used licences than to stop piracy.

 

But if game in kickstarter would say that it will have more complex drm than what steam offers, I would not give money for it and this is because I don't want fund some unknow drm making company, but game makers themselves and kickstarter projects are mostly risk free for gamemaker's as they get funding for their games before they are done, and so piracy isn't similar economic risk for kickstarted games as it is for publisher funded games, usually.

 

Yep I totally agree. It's a discussion the devs should obviously have with the players and backers because DRMs cost money and goodwill. DRMs aren't necessarily the answer. There are other things we can do.

[Elerond]

Just make the game only available on Steam. Works as DRM but also has many benefits for the user, a perfect solution!

Not all steam games are DRM. DRM isn't necessarily the answer.

 

All games in your steam account have some sort drm as you can't install them without steam and you can't sell your licence forward if steam don't allow it and even then you must follow steam's rules not laws of your country.

[AGX-17]

So basically they shouldn't do Chinese or Russian translations of the game.

[Hormalakh]

Just make the game only available on Steam. Works as DRM but also has many benefits for the user, a perfect solution!

Not all steam games are DRM. DRM isn't necessarily the answer.

 

All games in your steam account have some sort drm as you can't install them without steam and you can't sell your licence forward if steam don't allow it and even then you must follow steam's rules not laws of your country.

Didn't know that. I don't have Steam and will be downloading from gog.com precisely because of the DRM.

 

Should they limit their market only by selling through steam though?

Edited November 28, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

So basically they shouldn't do Chinese or Russian translations of the game.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay.

[Dream]

When the game is 20 bucks and available on steam any pirates that steal it wouldn't have bought it anyways. In addition to that if they really do like it then there is a more than zero chance that they'd either buy it themselves or, through word of mouth, inspire someone else to.

 

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth.

 

Are you saying there's an upper ceiling on publicity and marketing because I can guarantee you that P:E wont sell as much as CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Diablo, Skyrim, etc.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dream

[AGX-17]

So basically they shouldn't do Chinese or Russian translations of the game.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay.

 

China and Russia are in the top 3 countries for rates of software piracy is what I'm getting at.

[JFSOCC]

While I have some strong views on this topic, I'm not going to burn my hands on it

[Hormalakh]

When the game is 20 bucks and available on steam any pirates that steal it wouldn't have bought it anyways. In addition to that if they really do like it then there is a more than zero chance that they'd either buy it themselves or, through word of mouth, inspire someone else to.

 

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth.

 

Are you saying there's an upper ceiling on publicity and marketing because I can guarantee you that P:E wont sell as much as CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Diablo, etc.

 

Look, if pirates want to support the developers (the actual people being paid to work to make the game), they should back the project or buy the game by paying and also talk about it to friends. Don't try to play them off as being some "bastion of goodwill" here to act as a marketing department for Obsidian's Project:Eternity. That's just false. I don't care about pirates of other games. I'm dealing with P:E specifically. That's why the thread is in the P:E forums.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

While I have some strong views on this topic, I'm not going to burn my hands on it

Hence the trepidation for me. But honestly, this is the internet! I'm behind 7 proxies and all that.

[Dream]

So basically they shouldn't do Chinese or Russian translations of the game.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay.

 

China and Russia are in the top 3 countries for rates of software piracy is what I'm getting at.

 

We Russians would steal our own lunch if we hadn't already eaten it.

[Wirdjos]

I've been reading a lot of the RPGCodex lately. The article from tweakguides was posted there. I sat and read the whole thing and thought about it. I've pirated in the long long past, using the same arguments that most pirates do (I didn't use the "because I can" one - that takes serious antisocial behavior). I feel responsible somehow now that I'm starting to develop a relationship with the developers here at Obsidian. They've listened to us the best they can and I better understand where they come from. It's just a different relationship.

 

Okay, so this more of a personal revelation that you are sharing with the community than a concern that P:E will be pirated enough to really hurt the game. That's a rather large sigh of relief. I couldn't imagine it, but I do miss a lot of threads.

I also did(and do) my own fair share of pirating. My thought process revolves around the 'you're stealing sales' argument. Before I pirate something ask myself whether I would ever buy it. If my answer is no, I would not buy this and if I couldn't get it for free I simply wouldn't have it, then I'll pirate it. If I enjoy it and discover that I would have bought it had I known this, then I buy it. I don't think this makes what I do morally sound, but does make it acceptable to me.

[Hormalakh]

So basically they shouldn't do Chinese or Russian translations of the game.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay.

 

China and Russia are in the top 3 countries for rates of software piracy is what I'm getting at.

 

Well then backers shouldn't enable pirates by posting their own copies up on piratebay. That's the least we can do. That affects us because the next time OEI or another country wants to kickstart another RPG game and Russians or Chinese want localization, why should the rest of us, the backers spend the pledged money on localization for a country whose backers are not wiling to support the company but rather those that plan on stealing the game? I don't know numbers for those countries so who knows what the actual piracy rates are.

[Hormalakh]

I've been reading a lot of the RPGCodex lately. The article from tweakguides was posted there. I sat and read the whole thing and thought about it. I've pirated in the long long past, using the same arguments that most pirates do (I didn't use the "because I can" one - that takes serious antisocial behavior). I feel responsible somehow now that I'm starting to develop a relationship with the developers here at Obsidian. They've listened to us the best they can and I better understand where they come from. It's just a different relationship.

 

Okay, so this more of a personal revelation that you are sharing with the community than a concern that P:E will be pirated enough to really hurt the game. That's a rather large sigh of relief. I couldn't imagine it, but I do miss a lot of threads.

I also did(and do) my own fair share of pirating. My thought process revolves around the 'you're stealing sales' argument. Before I pirate something ask myself whether I would ever buy it. If my answer is no, I would not buy this and if I couldn't get it for free I simply wouldn't have it, then I'll pirate it. If I enjoy it and discover that I would have bought it had I known this, then I buy it. I don't think this makes what I do morally sound, but does make it acceptable to me.

 

No I actually do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out. P:E specifically might also be hurt. But I can't put numbers on it. It would be folly to do so.

 

Edit: I've added this to my previous post.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Somna]

I've been reading a lot of the RPGCodex lately. The article from tweakguides was posted there. I sat and read the whole thing and thought about it. I've pirated in the long long past, using the same arguments that most pirates do (I didn't use the "because I can" one - that takes serious antisocial behavior). I feel responsible somehow now that I'm starting to develop a relationship with the developers here at Obsidian. They've listened to us the best they can and I better understand where they come from. It's just a different relationship.

 

Okay, so this more of a personal revelation that you are sharing with the community than a concern that P:E will be pirated enough to really hurt the game. That's a rather large sigh of relief. I couldn't imagine it, but I do miss a lot of threads.

I also did(and do) my own fair share of pirating. My thought process revolves around the 'you're stealing sales' argument. Before I pirate something ask myself whether I would ever buy it. If my answer is no, I would not buy this and if I couldn't get it for free I simply wouldn't have it, then I'll pirate it. If I enjoy it and discover that I would have bought it had I known this, then I buy it. I don't think this makes what I do morally sound, but does make it acceptable to me.

 

The gist of the "stealing sales" argument is that while there are some people who will never pay for software anyway, there is also a subset of people who would normally pay for software but will go for the lowest possible deal. THOSE people are the lost sales if it is easy to get a pirated version, and the effort to get a pirated version reinforces knowledge on how to get more (if they've never done it before).

[Dream]

When the game is 20 bucks and available on steam any pirates that steal it wouldn't have bought it anyways. In addition to that if they really do like it then there is a more than zero chance that they'd either buy it themselves or, through word of mouth, inspire someone else to.

 

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth.

 

Are you saying there's an upper ceiling on publicity and marketing because I can guarantee you that P:E wont sell as much as CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Diablo, etc.

 

Look, if pirates want to support the developers (the actual people being paid to work to make the game), they should back the project or buy the game by paying. Don't try to play them off as being some "bastion of goodwill" here to act as a marketing department for Obsidian's Project:Eternity. That's just false. I don't care about pirates of other games. I'm dealing with P:E specifically. That's why the thread is in the P:E forums.

 

It's not about pirates being a bastion of good will. It's about the fact that when a game is as cheap and easy to get as P:E is then anyone who pirates it would have most certainly never bought it in the first place (it's about a thousand times easier to click buy on steam than it is to sift through torrents and cracks and what not to pirate a game). The fact that they own the game can in no way hurt the product.

 

As for why I brought up other games; it was because you stated that a good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth (which is true), but P:E will have nowhere near the market penetration of those games I listed, and as such any extra publicity will only serve to help it sell more.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dream

[Lephys]

United we stand. Divided we fall.

 

Raised to the fractional power we hover! Wait... no...

 

Humor aside, DRM is not a bad thing, in and of itself, because it is not simply one thing. It obviously has a variety of implementations. That would be like saying metal is bad because it makes guns, which kill people. That being said, a reasonable level of DRM implementation is perfectly... well, reasonable. Entering a serial key isn't any more of a pain in the butt than waiting on your popcorn in the microwave, or logging into a website profile.

 

Some argue that this won't do any good. Well, to that I say, have you not noticed how many people in the world do "wrong" only when it's convenient? How many people, for example, will attempt to mug someone in an alley for the money in their wallet? Now, how many people will watch someone accidentally drop 50 bucks in cash, pick it up, keep it, and say nothing?

 

Without getting into the "What are the specific numbers for all the different types of piraters (I say 'piraters' here to distinguish from 'pirates,' which are awesome and rum-filled) and their effect on the economy in bar-graph format," I can assure you that there are far more than a handful of people who take free copies of games because they are conveniently offered to them. So, yes, this specific group of people isn't going to go out of their way to edit config files and replace .exe's with cracked ones, etc.

 

So, for 15 seconds of key-entering and verification, you stop a group of people. I think some form of that is probably reasonable, assuming it doesn't cost 8.3 million dollars to implement. But, there's definitely no need to implement some kind of shock-and-awe nuclear winter DRM system that takes a blood sample every 30 minutes to make sure you're still you while you play the game. That, without a doubt, causes some amount of people to put even more consideration into piracy than they would have without such a hugely punishing system.

 

Thusly, I am in favor of DRM being implemented (in a reasonable manner) on post-release copies. In addition to this simple countermeasure, I agree with other sentiments here that the best countermeasure to piracy is to basically give pirates as little basis as possible to justify their actions, or for others to see their actions as justified somehow.

 

Some people in the world kick puppies, but how many people do you think would watch a puppy being kicked and just shrug it off? Yeah, that's because puppies are awesome and adorable. They radiate waves of unkickableness. The video game industry as a whole? Not so much. Not nearly as much as a puppy. Factors are obviously a bit different with the kickstarter process, as has been mentioned. But, going back to the mugging-vs.-money-dropping example, out of all the people who would pick up that $50 and keep it, how many do you think would do that if it was one of their best friends who dropped it? Significantly fewer, I would say. Well, developers need to make sure they promote the fact (and they must make it a fact rather than a marketing gimmick) that they're working to EARN your money, not trick you out of it.

 

The relationship between producer and consumer shouldn't be treated like a battle, as it is a symbiotic relationship. The most successful restaurants are typically the ones that serve the best food and treat their customers well, not the ones who gimmick the most people into choosing them and charge as much as they can possibly get away with while still staying in business.

[Jarmo]

No I actually do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out.

 

On this we're on the same page.

Speaking out and condemning is good and might be effective. It's not freedom fighters against greedy nameless corporations.

And while it's not greedy immoral pirates against pure hearted starving developers either, that is IMO closer to the mark.

 

DRM though, is to me more like realizing many customers are shoplifters and deciding to spray tear gas on all customers so the

shoplifters would have harder time at it. Though this too might err on the side of hyperbole, as examples go.

[Hormalakh]

United we stand. Divided we fall.

 

Raised to the fractional power we hover! Wait... no...

 

Humor aside, DRM is not a bad thing, in and of itself, because it is not simply one thing. It obviously has a variety of implementations. That would be like saying metal is bad because it makes guns, which kill people. That being said, a reasonable level of DRM implementation is perfectly... well, reasonable. Entering a serial key isn't any more of a pain in the butt than waiting on your popcorn in the microwave, or logging into a website profile.

 

Some argue that this won't do any good. Well, to that I say, have you not noticed how many people in the world do "wrong" only when it's convenient? How many people, for example, will attempt to mug someone in an alley for the money in their wallet? Now, how many people will watch someone accidentally drop 50 bucks in cash, pick it up, keep it, and say nothing?

 

Without getting into the "What are the specific numbers for all the different types of piraters (I say 'piraters' here to distinguish from 'pirates,' which are awesome and rum-filled) and their effect on the economy in bar-graph format," I can assure you that there are far more than a handful of people who take free copies of games because they are conveniently offered to them. So, yes, this specific group of people isn't going to go out of their way to edit config files and replace .exe's with cracked ones, etc.

 

So, for 15 seconds of key-entering and verification, you stop a group of people. I think some form of that is probably reasonable, assuming it doesn't cost 8.3 million dollars to implement. But, there's definitely no need to implement some kind of shock-and-awe nuclear winter DRM system that takes a blood sample every 30 minutes to make sure you're still you while you play the game. That, without a doubt, causes some amount of people to put even more consideration into piracy than they would have without such a hugely punishing system.

 

Thusly, I am in favor of DRM being implemented (in a reasonable manner) on post-release copies. In addition to this simple countermeasure, I agree with other sentiments here that the best countermeasure to piracy is to basically give pirates as little basis as possible to justify their actions, or for others to see their actions as justified somehow.

 

Some people in the world kick puppies, but how many people do you think would watch a puppy being kicked and just shrug it off? Yeah, that's because puppies are awesome and adorable. They radiate waves of unkickableness. The video game industry as a whole? Not so much. Not nearly as much as a puppy. Factors are obviously a bit different with the kickstarter process, as has been mentioned. But, going back to the mugging-vs.-money-dropping example, out of all the people who would pick up that $50 and keep it, how many do you think would do that if it was one of their best friends who dropped it? Significantly fewer, I would say. Well, developers need to make sure they promote the fact (and they must make it a fact rather than a marketing gimmick) that they're working to EARN your money, not trick you out of it.

 

The relationship between producer and consumer shouldn't be treated like a battle, as it is a symbiotic relationship. The most successful restaurants are typically the ones that serve the best food and treat their customers well, not the ones who gimmick the most people into choosing them and charge as much as they can possibly get away with while still staying in business.

Well said, except for 1 thing. I think a shock-and-awe nuclear winter DRM system would be quite exciting!

[Wirdjos]

No I actually do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out. P:E specifically might also be hurt. But I can't put numbers on it. It would be folly to do so.

 

Edit: I've added this to my previous post.

 

I disagree that piracy has hurt PC gaming's future, and future is the most important word here for me. The effect piracy or perceived piracy has had on PC gaming is indisputable. We have a shift of larger publishers to consoles, draconian DRM, and really just rage spouting from every corner. However, piracy is here. It is possible. It will not be stopped any more than any of the other crazy stuff on the internet will be stopped. And you can't expect all people to self regulate. It will not happen. If any luxury is to survive the digitial age, it has to evolve. The reason kickstarter excited me so much, and the reason you'll hear me advocating P:E moving completely over to a kickstarter model, is that this could be a way for the PC gaming industry to evolve. Let people pay for games they want upfront, before any cracking could possibly happen. Make the game, get paid exactly what the game was worth to make, then release it out into the world. No need to worry about expensive DRM or losing money to pirates. Just games people want being made for the amount of money they were actually worth. Maybe I'm being wildly idealistic, maybe I just have no idea how anything works around me. I don't know and I know I don't know. This is just what I think I see and what I'm hoping for.

[Doppelschwert]

I hate DRM and I hate steam (which is an opinion and not an argument).

Forcing me to use either of them will directly lead to me losing total interest in the game and stop me to support it any further.

I understand the point of view of the companies but I also understand the fact that we live in a free market economy and I don't feel like paying for renting software, which is basically stripping several rights off me which I'd like to have for being a honest customer, especially if pirates are able to enjoy them.

In essence, the following article sums pretty much up what I think:

http://foobarrant.fo.../CopyProtection

 

I don't pirate any games and I agree that pirating should have a worse image in society, but DRM is not the way to go to achieve this.

Imho, a much better approach is proposed by this fine sir:

http://foobarrant.fo....php/Main/FSNCP

 

It basically uses a serial you enter at the start of the game. The game then checks at certain intervals (game-time / plot points) the serial under another condition (which the earlier checks did not). Assuming sufficient complex code, it is hard to find the code which has to be cracked and you have to play in order to find those checks in the first place. In the end, until a serial generator is made, its a pain in the ass to find matching keys through brute force. And when you patch the game, you change how the checks are made, so you have to do it all over again for every patch. It doesn't stop pirates, but it takes alot more effort to avoid the checks which essentially is supposed to piss you off so much that you don't feel its worth to keep up with - given that you are not a legitime customer.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Doppelschwert

[Hormalakh]

It's not about pirates being a bastion of good will. It's about the fact that when a game is as cheap and easy to get as P:E is then anyone who pirates it would have most certainly never bought it in the first place (it's about a thousand times easier to click buy on steam than it is to sift through torrents and cracks and what not to pirate a game). The fact that they own the game can in no way hurt the product.

 

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're trying to say. If they download any game without discretion (like let's say they're a collector), they aren't planning on playing it anyway. So this doesn't really help increase word of mouth. If they are planning on playing the game and intentionally downloaded the game from the torrent site, then they should buy it or pay the devs to help support them. Buying from Steam is buying, not piracy.

 

If they willy-nilly torrent everything, then when they do play it, they should pay for it.