newc0253 Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 And why does all Bioware Villains (except Sarevok) speak British English? And why does Sarevok speak American English? Because he's more Brutish than Irenicus? WHY does Villains overall have speciel accents? in american movies, 'proper' english accents (e.g. RADA-trained shakespearan accents, not working class ones) denote intelligence and - by extension - either near-angelic wisdom (e.g. obi wan, gandalf, dumbledore) or its polar opposite, fiendish intelligence (e.g. the emperor in star wars, sauraman, alan rickman in die hard). so sarevok represents evil as brute force, whereas irenicus represents evil as goodness gone wrong (cf. satan). the only inversion of this rule i know of is 'dangerous liaisons', where the aristocrats spoke with american accents and the servants spoke english accents. interestingly, malkovich has just been named to play voldemort for the harry potter movies. dumber than a bag of hammers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 newc0253 is correct. American movies very often have 'british' accents (I live in britain and i have heard no one talk in that kind of accent except on TV). There are exceptions of course, but far too often they do have 'british' accents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 newc observations is generally true, but a bit of an overstatement... in virtually all american ww2 movies, the nazis is all brits. why? probably 'cause most americans couldn't tell the difference 'tween a british accent and a german accent... but we all know that non-americans tends towards evil. besides which, there is very few noteworthy german actors. heck, otto preminger cast himself in stalag 17 for chrissakes. back in the 40s and 50s even the french characters was usually brits... we suspect that this was just a way to let us all know that the character in question was Foreign. when lucas did his star wars flicks and recreated nazis, he cast numerous english folks. is no hard and fast rule though... gladiator, for instance, cast an american as the sneeky villain, and an aussie as the hero. 'course, brando doing mark antony still makes us chuckle a bit. am not sure what accent gary oldman was going for in The Fifth element, but it weren't brit. is no real rules... is something that probaly started as a matter of convenience, and then folks begun to expect it... go figure. HA! Good Fun! p.s. "I do not contest this; though this is one of the reasons I dislike the Star Wars universe, I will accept this as a fact it is. However, this is not the problem in the KOTOR series. The problem is that Bioware has never realised what "evil" really is. " untrue. bioware simply took evil as it were portrayed in the origianl star wars movies... and recreated. "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabrinko Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Wouldn't it be good [as in Beach Boys-good] to have a villain with a nice texas, hillbilly drawl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 watch/read, "Deliverance." HA! Good Fun! p.s. we prefer our redneck "villains" to be something more akin to, "The Great Santini," but that wouldn't really work in a crpg. "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 btw, one of these days we is gonna get around to writing our book 'bout Fritz Haber... now there is a great model for a crpg villain... is german too so he gots an evil accent already. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 in virtually all american ww2 movies, the nazis is all brits. why? probably 'cause most americans couldn't tell the difference 'tween a british accent and a german accent... but we all know that non-americans tends towards evil. besides which, there is very few noteworthy german actors. heck, otto preminger cast himself in stalag 17 for chrissakes. back in the 40s and 50s even the french characters was usually brits... we suspect that this was just a way to let us all know that the character in question was Foreign. when lucas did his star wars flicks and recreated nazis, he cast numerous english folks. Ah, yes, the "Oxford-educated Nazi." Didn't James Mason make a living at that? And in Ep. 1, Lucas added a couple more old Hollywood stereotypes to the list - the quasi-Asian Trade Federation folks, and the Gungans. Of course, playing off of racial stereotypes led to the predictable charges of racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Why would someone want a "realistically evil" CRPG villain is beyond my comprehension. I mean, it's just a game If anyone needs a good fill on the realistic evil, slide down into the following pit : http://www.portalofevil.com/ I have nothing special to say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 am not sure what accent gary oldman was going for in The Fifth element, but it weren't brit. I always figured it was supposed to be from the American "Deep South". "Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel" sort of fits with that theory. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 am not sure what accent gary oldman was going for in The Fifth element, but it weren't brit. I always figured it was supposed to be from the American "Deep South". "Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel" sort of fits with that theory. branagh, olivier and others seem to equate american with folksy somehow. *shrug* oldman did an acceptable job in romeo is bleeding and the professional, so we can only assume he was going for a regional thing... and the twang and name does suggest louisiana drawl HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Gorth: In the beginning Morgoth wasn't evil, just talented, arrogant and ambitious. He wanted to create himself, just like Eru, and that's why he intefered with the creation of the material world, was punished, and fell into evil. Rather Satanic, I think. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogo Ribeiro Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Gorth: In the beginning Morgoth wasn't evil, just talented, arrogant and ambitious. He wanted to create himself, just like Eru, and that's why he intefered with the creation of the material world, was punished, and fell into evil. Rather Satanic, I think. Thats somewhat similar to John Romero's story, isn't it? Only except falling into evil, he fell into relative obscurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfox Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Eldar said: They are villains in a different sense. Firstly, Morgoth was much more of a Sarevok; I have no idea how well acquainted you are with Tolkien's myths; I'm not an expert in any case; but I will simply state that Morgoth was a character with a strong personality. His evil qualities are that of a calm, calculating thinker, and he is plagued by fear, paranoia and becomes chained in his own autocratic megalomania. He is at the very least a Sarevok in those terms, possibly more; he is a paragon of the evil overlord, and if he does not show any remorse or redemptive qualities, that is because he's an Evil God, the equivalent of Satan. Eh, I'm not so sure about that. Melkor/Morgoth, IMO, behaved like a spoiled brat. First he went, "Daddy's so mean! He actually dared to chastise me! I'm taking my ball and go play elsewhere!" He basically kicked over lamps and killed the trees he didn't like with the aid of his pet spider. His attitude toward the Valar's creation was mostly "Ahhh, I can't create these toys! So I'll break their toys! Hehe!" Tolkien's characterization is pretty flat on all counts, anyway, for the good and the bad guys alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegeri Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I'm a fan of villains who are only trying to do what they think is right or are horribly mislead. I'm a bit tired of cookie cutter evil that is always just evil for the hell of it. They end up being comical (IE the antagonist in KotoR, who is so memorable I can't even recall who he is) or worse, just a parody of a better done stereotype. Boss: You're fired. Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you? Boss: No, I don't think so- Me: JUST LET ME DANCE *Dances* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfox Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Aegeri, would you be interested in my take on Revan's fall, then? Ahem, that was shameless pluggery. Feel free to shoot me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newc0253 Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 is no hard and fast rule though... gladiator, for instance, cast an american as the sneeky villain, and an aussie as teh hero. i agree the rule isn't hard and fast but gladiator's actually a fair example of the rule in action - despite having richard harris as his stage dad, Commodus is the only one to have an american accent. the senators are represented by the great shakespearean Derek Jacobi in full "I, Claudius" mode and even the Aussie lead and the Danish chick playing Commodus's sister are doing plausible english accents. so in gladiator, the english accent represents respect for tradition and republican virtue, whereas the american accent represents callow, ruthless ambition. am not sure what accent gary oldman was going for in The Fifth element, but it weren't brit. i think oldman was doing a southern accent. no idea why, though - although maybe it's something to do with the director being french. maybe the french think the american south is more evil than the rest of the US. dumber than a bag of hammers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Eldar said: They are villains in a different sense. Firstly, Morgoth was much more of a Sarevok; I have no idea how well acquainted you are with Tolkien's myths; I'm not an expert in any case; but I will simply state that Morgoth was a character with a strong personality. His evil qualities are that of a calm, calculating thinker, and he is plagued by fear, paranoia and becomes chained in his own autocratic megalomania. He is at the very least a Sarevok in those terms, possibly more; he is a paragon of the evil overlord, and if he does not show any remorse or redemptive qualities, that is because he's an Evil God, the equivalent of Satan. Eh, I'm not so sure about that. Melkor/Morgoth, IMO, behaved like a spoiled brat. First he went, "Daddy's so mean! He actually dared to chastise me! I'm taking my ball and go play elsewhere!" He basically kicked over lamps and killed the trees he didn't like with the aid of his pet spider. His attitude toward the Valar's creation was mostly "Ahhh, I can't create these toys! So I'll break their toys! Hehe!" Tolkien's characterization is pretty flat on all counts, anyway, for the good and the bad guys alike. This is an interesting quote. I appreciate the response. However, I didn't write either one. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I wrote that! Blasphemy! And it was directed *at* Eldar, too. Anyway, you could see it that way, but then cynism can make almost anythign sound stupid. "waaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... my mommy died from an army. lets go kill the son of the army's leader even though he would have had nothing to do it and even though it would do nothing to make me happier or help anyone just because im vengeful but look on me with sympathy because my mommy died just like millions of other people." Heh. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I guess my point is that "flat" characters aren't bad in and of themselves. Literature is replete with examples of characters depicted in such a way. Charles Dickins portrays his characters as what we might consider flat. That's irrelevant if they serve the purpose for which they are fashioned. Some folks might suggest that Dickens is inferior or that his works don't deserve attention or praise. However, his works have received both attention and praise and passed what is perhaps the most important test of any literary work -- enduring renown. This is the Tolkien argument all over again. Whether folks on this board like Tolkien or not, he has had an enduring influence and it is quite likely that he will continue to do so. That puts him in a different category from those who enjoy fame during a short span of years. Put it this way, I see no end of harsh criticism for Shakespeare. ...But Shakespeare has a commanding influence, STILL, on our society. So, folks arguing to the contrary are usually just grinding an axe. Fair enough, grind away, but the axe will be ground to dust before you can change reality. "Flat" characterizations serve a purpose in some strories. Some stories revel in creating "complex" characters. Each should be judged on how well it achieves its individual goal and how worthy that goal is in the first place. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfox Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Oops, sorry, Eldar. I misquoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 I suppose that is a point too, Eldar. Perhaps it is unwise to criticise a character design just because they are "flat" or "clich Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 No problem, Winterwind. Any mistake that puts me in company with Tigranes is welcome indeed. ...And I count the company very good, indeed. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfox Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 No problem, Winterwind. Any mistake that puts me in company with Tigranes is welcome indeed. ...And I count the company very good, indeed. Winterwind? *sulks* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Oh, I have Winterwind on the brain. Now I beg your pardon, WinterFOX. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaesun Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Is MCA involved in KotOR: Sith Lords story? I didn't see his name mentioned on that game article that came out. Some of my Youtube Classic Roland MT-32 Video Game Music videos | My Music | My Photography Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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