Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part III).

[Agelastos]

 

Adventurers =/= mercenaries, which wore very garish outfits indeed.

 

 

If mercenaries aren't adventurers, then who are?

[Tsuga C]

If mercenaries aren't adventurers, then who are?

 

Vikings, the classic raiders and traders, could be considered "adventurers" of a sort and might dabble as hired muscle, but mercenaries are just that: a professional (or at least semi-professional) military force for hire. Mercs are hired to carry out someone else's agenda and adventurers are more properly thought of as enacting their own agenda.

[Agelastos]

If mercenaries aren't adventurers, then who are?

 

Vikings, the classic raiders and traders, could be considered "adventurers" of a sort and might dabble as hired muscle, but mercenaries are just that: a professional (or at least semi-professional) military force for hire. Mercs are hired to carry out someone else's agenda and adventurers are more properly thought of as enacting their own agenda.

 

I guess it all depends on your definition of what an "adventurer" is.

"Soldier of fortune" and "adventurer" are often used synonymously, and "adventurer" is commonly used as a euphemism for mercenary in fiction (the same way that a grave robbing thief might refer to himself as a "treasure hunter").

Besides, the mercenary companies of the Medieval and Early Modern periods were usually as much freebooters as they were professional armies for hire, so if a pirate is an adventurer then so is a landsknecht.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Agelastos

[Monte Carlo]

A fantasy helmet built for hardcore LARPers...

 

 

Some pretty cool black Gothic-style plate...

 

 

 

I MUST HAVE THIS HELM FOR MY CHARACTER (very high medieval)

 

[Karranthain]

Gotta love those Saxon helmets.

 

Very nice, indeed. One wonders how often your beard gets snagged by the chainmail hanging down in front of one's face. That'd get irritating right quick. Still, it is a good look.

 

That one's pretty neat as well.

 

[SophosTheWise]

A fantasy helmet built for hardcore LARPers...

 

 

 

In Germany and Switzerland you'd get laughed at wearing this. Well, not exactly everywhere but most of the time.

 

 

 

 

Armour of the Sigismund, Archduke of Tirol.

More here: http://mreen.org/Her...liana-1-go.html

 

H-o-l-y s-h-i-t.

Edited November 20, 2012 by SophosTheWise

[TrashMan]

A fantasy helmet built for hardcore LARPers...

 

 

 

In Germany and Switzerland you'd get laughed at wearing this. Well, not exactly everywhere but most of the time.

 

Looks usable enough. Covers the whole head. Curved so most blows wold glance (unless they come from behind).

I'd certanly use it over that helmet with the giant golden lion on top.

[Merlkir]

Looks usable enough. Covers the whole head. Curved so most blows wold glance (unless they come from behind).

I'd certanly use it over that helmet with the giant golden lion on top.

 

I wouldn't. Unlike the golden helmet, there are many gaps for weapons to slide into, it doesn't cover your neck at all and it's made from many riveted pieces, I wouldn't expect it to hold together for long. It just looks like it'd get bent under the first blow and stab and slice your face with all those edges. Being made from overlapping pieces also adds material, so it's likely heavier than it needs to be.

 

Believe it or not, this one is more for show than the golden one.

[Karranthain]

A fantasy design for the rogues/mages:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the cloak in particular. Sligtly similar to the Aloth design :

 

 

 

I must say I'd definitely prefer this practical direction instead of the usual robes for the mages. What are your thoughts?

Edited November 20, 2012 by Karranthain

[Merlkir]

Yeah, put aside the funny masks and the asymmetrical lonely pauldron, this is pretty good looking. Although, are those embroidered pants on the female, or is she wearing stockings? :D

[Agelastos]

I wonder how many slots there will be for armor in P.E. Probably no more than the standard four or five, but one can always hope...

[Karranthain]

I wonder how many slots there will be for armor in P.E. Probably no more than the standard four or five, but one can always hope...

 

Four is the most likely number (helm, chest, boots and gloves). It'd be great if you could wear something underneath (or over) your armour, but I wouldn't count on that.

[SGray]

They were posers with a decent income, yes. And since an adventurer (at least in a D&D sense) is also quite wealthy that would work perfectly.

First thing - "more colors for the sake of colors" aproach existed only when good paints were as expensive as gold on your fingers or belt. And I'm not against colors, long as they are not too aggressive and you're not looking like jester of some sort. What I'm against are - "puffs". That things could be partially justified like: hiding weak spots in leg, shoulder and arm plating, even providing some protection, but still it's mostly for boast and it's absolutely impractical for off-road travel. Just imagine that puffs on legs after climbing on some mud slope. There would be couple of kilos of mud in it, while In normal armor you could just shake that mud off. Armor with puffs don't behave good (actually pretty bad) in wet environments. Was able to test that myself once ( And really strain movement by it's weight when so.

One important thing, imo, is not to mix landsknechts - semi regular military, mercenaries with adventurers in RPGs - mostly explorers, travelers, all-around experienced specialists for hire. How often would landsknecht explore ancient ruins (overgrown with bushes ), or narrows of dark tombs filled with web, dust and traps? But it's pretty common for an adventurer. And, imo, the adventurer would much prefer not to use "wide clothing". Btw, ever imagined sneaking or traveling for a long time in such? )

Not sure if that was in previous topics, but I'm convinced that such (brigandine, half-cuirass, cloak) would much better suit the adventurer, and that's much more fit for tearing through anything:

and other pics from there:

http://www.ageofarmo...oic-armour.html

Yeah, put aside ... the asymmetrical lonely pauldron

Why against asymmetrical pauldrons? Do you use both your hands equally? Would you stand flat to your opponent, not one shoulder forward?

Edited November 20, 2012 by SGray

[Agelastos]

Not sure if that was in previous topics, but I'm convinced that such (brigandine an half-cuirass, cloak) such would much better suit the adventurer, and that's much more fit for tearing through anything:

 

 

Brigandines were usually sleeveless, so I don't see how that would help against the "puffiness". Maybe you're thinking of the doublets worn under the brigandines, but they often had slashed sleeves in order to show off the "puffiness" from the 15th century on.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Agelastos

[Monte Carlo]

Military forces often preened and dressed up as back in the day it equated with badassery. Military forces have only worn sludge colours for the last hundred years.

 

I would like to make (a) Conan-like savage swathed in leathers and fur as much as (b) effete renaissance dandy with a plumed helmet and tights. Both might be fun to play and look at.

[Karranthain]

Military forces have only worn sludge colours for the last hundred years.

 

And this, I suppose, is the basis of the counterfactual assumption that historical armour was drab and boring to look at. As you've pointed out, it was anything but (most of the time).

[SGray]

Brigandines were usually sleeveless, so I don't see how that would help against the "puffiness". Maybe you're thinking of the doublets worn under the brigandines, but they often had slashed sleeves in order to show off the "puffiness" from the 15th century on.

Not intended to address sleeves explicitly, when it's shown on picture, but doublet + chain sleeves for upper arm and doublet + plate (or any other) bracer for lover arm. Won't ever fight without bracers, btw. Puff sleeves could also count as bracers of some kind... but personally I wouldn't rely on such defense. And not sure if it's possible to wear slashed sleeves with any more reliable bracer.

[Merlkir]

Yeah, put aside ... the asymmetrical lonely pauldron

Why against asymmetrical pauldrons? Do you use both your hands equally? Would you stand flat to your opponent, not one shoulder forward?

 

To quote my blog shamelessly (again :D):

 

http://janpospisil.blogspot.cz/2012/04/3-points-on-pauldrons-in-fantasy.html

 

 

Bracers are another funny thing. As far as I know, they didn't exist. In history, as separate protective items the way they're portrayed in fantasy games. Some armour covered the forearm, sure. But except for use by archers, I am yet to see a real bracer used in combat.

[Agelastos]

Yeah, put aside ... the asymmetrical lonely pauldron

Why against asymmetrical pauldrons? Do you use both your hands equally? Would you stand flat to your opponent, not one shoulder forward?

 

To quote my blog shamelessly (again :D):

 

http://janpospisil.b...in-fantasy.html

 

 

Bracers are another funny thing. As far as I know, they didn't exist. In history, as separate protective items the way they're portrayed in fantasy games. Some armour covered the forearm, sure. But except for use by archers, I am yet to see a real bracer used in combat.

 

They did kind of disappear in Europe during the High Middle Ages, but they were quite common before then, not only among archers.

I think fantasy games often use the term "bracers" for vambraces too, figuring that most people don't know what vambraces are.

[Merlkir]

Could you post any examples? I vaguely recall some late indo persian ones, but that's about it.

[Monte Carlo]

Military forces have only worn sludge colours for the last hundred years.

 

And this, I suppose, is the basis of the counterfactual assumption that historical armour was drab and boring to look at. As you've pointed out, it was anything but (most of the time).

 

khaki uniforms were pioneered, iirc, by the British army in the Boer War. Boers wearing green jackets sniping on the veldt were at an advantage over the red-coated line. The history of camouflage is fascinating, but fatally O/T.

 

If you think about medieval armour and warfare, colourful garb makes complete sense. You have a load of men clad head-to-toe in armour attempting to kill each other. Their only tactical recognition insignia are shield devices, crests on helms and patterned surcoats.

[Agelastos]

Could you post any examples? I vaguely recall some late indo persian ones, but that's about it.

 

Maybe they should technically be called vambraces, since they're not designed for archery.

Or do vambraces have to be part of a suit of armor? Or cover the entire forearm, for that matter?

Bah! We don't make the distinction in Swedish. Let's just call them forearm guards.

 

Splinted forearm guards, of metal or leather, were fairly common during Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages.

They were, for instance, worn by the Varangians in the Byzantine Empire, Kievan Rus, and the Nordic countries (particularly Sweden and western Finland).

These would usually cover the entire forearm, but would in some cases only cover about two thirds.

 

It's far easier to find Central and East Asian examples.

[Merlkir]

I am aware of the splint-thingy reconstructions for the Vendels and particularly those adopted by Varangian enthusiasts. However, I haven't ever seen them in period depictions, or described in sources.

 

It seems to me all this spawned from a few reconstructions in the Osprey books. Which (I think) are based on an actual find from the Vendel culture and its application on the forearms is a result of measurements of the splint pieces. I've also seen this being reconstructed as greaves (which I think is more plausible, as we have a depiction of a similar device on an Avar medal, coin or something like that. In these periods you'd also often carry a large shield, so covering the legs seems a bit more important than the arms, where you'd ideally have long sleeves of mail. It seems to have been a more common thing to use splint armour in more Eastern countries, true.)

 

I just often notice how separate bracers made from various metal bits sown onto leather, or just leather seem to be a mandatory piece of any armour design, or a fantasy costume. And really, except for a few cases, like these hypothetical splint ones and the Indian (late period, not even medieval) steel ones, I can't recall seeing them being worn and used that way.

 

The high medieval period, of course, had this covered by plate arms.

 

For some reason we (artists) feel the need to put something on the forearms, otherwise the arms feel empty and a simple mail sleeve just offends us by not being tied up with a bracer. ;P

 

Similarly, warriors throughout history seem to have been comfortable fighting without gloves. To us this seems strange and unsafe, so we give our characters at least (!) leather gloves, to protect their knuckles from getting chipped.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Merlkir

[Jarmo]

In nostalgy fumes, I went to browse Larry Elmore's homepages (which seem to be down now) and I must say I'm pretty amazed. It's not that he'd be better than I remembered, actually a lot of his stuff is not top notch and even at best he's no Frazetta, mostly he's a clear line type, but at best Elmore is pretty darn good. Like in this classic http://fantasy.mruga...lmore - 002.jpg which is the first D&D image I saw and largely the reason I brought the red box.

 

But the reason I was really amazed, is I never actually realized how much his style and images is the D&D style. And the style of BG.

It's all right there. http://2.bp.blogspot...ntwilight_I.jpg

 

From the pretty realistic armor, influenced by history but still clearly D&D with big horns and ornaments here and there, to the less realistic style of boob plates, chain bikinis, downright silly evil armors, thieves wearing leather and female thieves showing way more cleavage.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what to think at this point. There's nostalgia, stupid designs, awkvard poses, but there's D&D and BG I loved,

there's this whole beautiful world full of color and style.

 

---

And hey, bracers for everybody. And those neat folded longboots.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Jarmo

[Karranthain]

Military forces have only worn sludge colours for the last hundred years.

 

And this, I suppose, is the basis of the counterfactual assumption that historical armour was drab and boring to look at. As you've pointed out, it was anything but (most of the time).

 

khaki uniforms were pioneered, iirc, by the British army in the Boer War. Boers wearing green jackets sniping on the veldt were at an advantage over the red-coated line. The history of camouflage is fascinating, but fatally O/T.

 

If you think about medieval armour and warfare, colourful garb makes complete sense. You have a load of men clad head-to-toe in armour attempting to kill each other. Their only tactical recognition insignia are shield devices, crests on helms and patterned surcoats.

 

Fascinating nevertheless

 

As for the "colourful garb" - it indeed makes sense; as you've said it served as means of identification amidst the chaos of battle. Ornaments, colourful (and by extension expensive) garments were signs of high social status and affluence - in practical terms they would notify the enemy that perhaps it would be worth it to try and ransom such individuals, instead of slaughtering them outright. Even regular footsoldiers more often than not purchased their own equipment; uniforms weren't that common. Some armours were intended to intimidate the enemy etc.

 

I'll write a more detailed post pertraining to this particular facet of the design as soon as I'll have more time

 

Here's an example of a really nice fantasy ornamented design. The mask and the detail on the armour's really nice; at the same time it looks usable and respects the verisimilitude (save for the bow).

 

Edited November 21, 2012 by Karranthain