Melf's Acid Arrow & Spell Forge

[Osvir]

MELF'S Acid Arrow (Example)

 

Could there be special Wizards in the world that you have to talk to before being able to cast a certain Spell? Cool I found Melf's Acid Arrow but... I have NO idea how to use it at all so it just sits in my Grimoire. Whenever I try it just fizzles. I would have to find this Melf and he would teach me. Same thing for other spells and magic. Now, the Spells in P:E will hardly have the same the NAMES as the D&D equivalent (some might?).

 

That scroll you found randomly or by chance somewhere but can't use could hold the powers of the Ultimate Ultimate spell. There could be a clue on the scroll on "How to unlock potential" which leads to another Clue, leading to another Clue, finally finding the Wizard behind it all and you get to learn the super duper omega vega sega Spell that simply obliterates.

 

Perhaps you have to take the Scroll to the Spell Forge in New York (appearantly, that's a printing press btw). Only at the Spell Forge can the last piece of Magic be printed onto the Scroll in a way only the Spell Forge can.

 

Thoughts?

[GhostofAnakin]

This might be okay for perhaps some of the rare, high level spells. But it might get a little tedious if you had to do this for common spells that are also low level.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'd prefer it more if your original research would result in discovering completely new spells, but it's neat either way.

[Osvir]

Another question:

 

Spell descriptions? Should it be fleshed out from the start or more of an Old-School way where you have to figure out spells by Pen & Paper (you Flesh out the Spell).

 

You've got a Magic Missile in your inventory, but it doesn't say anything about it in the description. Using it on an enemy I see "Ah it's a Magic Missile" and when I hit the enemy with it the Spell gets "details" (automatically) on what kinds of Damage it does and what kinds of Stats it has. The description is still void, but now I know what it is and I can name the spell and flesh out the description myself.

 

^Could this be an Option in Hardcore mode or in Standard play? (Turn Descriptions Off)

 

I recently tried out the very first Might & Magic, and I had no idea what the spells was at all (doesn't come with a description) and this made the Spells much more important to me as a Player (the spells became personal) because I had to figure it out myself (Pen & Paper). Spells and scrolls bought at shops could come with a description, of course, but Spells and Scrolls found on the battlefield could be non-descriptive?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Osvir

[aluminiumtrioxid]

What kind of an idiot doesn't keep some "blow self up"-type spell on their person if it is expected that the enemy combatants will loot their bodies and - against any kind of common sense - start to experiment with the spells found without trying to gain any preliminary information?

[Osvir]

^Call me odd but I love that kind of stuff perhaps you could "Check/Search/Identify" the scroll for "intent"/traps? Maybe the scroll wouldn't kill you but if you can't "disarm" the bad effects it'll go up in smoke (the scroll) and you won't learn the real spell that's hiding underneath the bad effects (Let's say it is a Fireball Scroll, if you forget to check for traps when you cast it it blows up in your face, but if you would "disarm" it first you could learn to cast the Fireball spell). We were talking about Grimoire's of enemies having "locks" (kind of) in another thread, that they have Defense-Mechanisms or that they are Tailored to the Wizard wielding them, like calculations/mathematics.

 

EDIT: In another thread we were discussing "Riddles" and clues that you type in yourself.

 

Not saying that every spell should be a riddle or a clue, but those few that are "locked", could you inspect the scroll itself and type in a word that unlocks it?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Osvir

[Pipyui]

Sometimes you have to go through a quest to obtain unique equipment, right? Can't see a reason why not to do something similar for certain spells.

The spell descriptions thing rubs me the wrong way a little, though. If I use my soul as a medium for a spell, I think I'd know the "structure" of the spell. Magic as described so far doesn't feel to me like a "speak words and magic happens" type system, but more of a "shape my soul to influence reality" kinda thing. Seems odd to me to be able to "shape" my soul into an unknown force. Of course, unknown spells might just be "soul schematics" or something, so I'm not against the idea outright.

[Osvir]

Sometimes you have to go through a quest to obtain unique equipment, right? Can't see a reason why not to do something similar for certain spells.

The spell descriptions thing rubs me the wrong way a little, though. If I use my soul as a medium for a spell, I think I'd know the "structure" of the spell. Magic as described so far doesn't feel to me like a "speak words and magic happens" type system, but more of a "shape my soul to influence reality" kinda thing. Seems odd to me to be able to "shape" my soul into an unknown force. Of course, unknown spells might just be "soul schematics" or something, so I'm not against the idea outright.

 

You just took down an Evil Wizard, he had some magical scrolls on him. How do you have any idea what it is that those spells do? Sure, you can deduce that it probably had something to do with the spells he cast at you but would you be able to just know right off the bat which one of them it was? Did this Wizard have some calculations of his own that you don't outright understand until "Trial & Error"?

 

I can understand that spells would come with a description when you buy them in shops or from a Mercantile Wizard. But from those random/by chance drops I can't really see how you would know right away, specially if it isn't part of your characters Magic School.

[Pipyui]

You just took down an Evil Wizard, he had some magical scrolls on him. How do you have any idea what it is that those spells do? Sure, you can deduce that it probably had something to do with the spells he cast at you but would you be able to just know right off the bat which one of them it was? Did this Wizard have some calculations of his own that you don't outright understand until "Trial & Error"?

 

I can understand that spells would come with a description when you buy them in shops or from a Mercantile Wizard. But from those random/by chance drops I can't really see how you would know right away, specially if it isn't part of your characters Magic School.

 

True enough, though as a function of soul, shouldn't a spell's form make itself evident in casting or probing its "structure"? The way I imagine it, it seems like a spell can only be cast if one knows how to shape their soul to accomplish a specific task. Without knowing the task, one doesn't know how to shape their soul. A scroll might facilitate the conveyance of such knowledge, and would itself define the nature of the spell.

 

I do like the idea of finding unknown spells, but (speaking only for myself and my understanding of PE magic here) need it to be explained so that it is consistent with the nature of soul magic in PE. (<- smiley of "trying not to sound like an ass")

[Osvir]

The smiley helps but I don't see you as an ass Pipyui in any of the threads or at all

 

I understand that the spell being drawn upon, scribbles on the scroll would perhaps be unknown, but when the mathematician within the Wizard starts reading/casting/drawing from the soul he understands the spell. Though then the question is as he has begun casting, will he be able to stop the conjuration mid-casting or would it be cast? Would he be able to "solve" the scroll without casting/drawing on the soul? <- Like I said in another post "Check/Search/Identify" the scroll in your inventory.

[necromate]

Sometimes you have to go through a quest to obtain unique equipment, right? Can't see a reason why not to do something similar for certain spells.

The spell descriptions thing rubs me the wrong way a little, though. If I use my soul as a medium for a spell, I think I'd know the "structure" of the spell. Magic as described so far doesn't feel to me like a "speak words and magic happens" type system, but more of a "shape my soul to influence reality" kinda thing. Seems odd to me to be able to "shape" my soul into an unknown force. Of course, unknown spells might just be "soul schematics" or something, so I'm not against the idea outright.

 

You just took down an Evil Wizard, he had some magical scrolls on him. How do you have any idea what it is that those spells do? Sure, you can deduce that it probably had something to do with the spells he cast at you but would you be able to just know right off the bat which one of them it was? Did this Wizard have some calculations of his own that you don't outright understand until "Trial & Error"?

 

I can understand that spells would come with a description when you buy them in shops or from a Mercantile Wizard. But from those random/by chance drops I can't really see how you would know right away, specially if it isn't part of your characters Magic School.

 

I would welcome such or similar spell learning mechanism, but only if all those spells could also be learned trough lvl up/trainer/etc. I would really hate to lack cirtain 'must have' spells...

I would hate to have run errands to get my basic spells, I would prefer a personal lab in our home/frotress where you could experiment with quest rewards, or try to figure out a spell that was used by a boss recently against you, or spells enemy casters used... maybe trough a "spellcraft" skill you observe and read their soul, and after you observed it a few times ( random times between 3 and 10 maybe) you could go to your lab and experiment on "soul" dummies, made from ratsouls xD

 

edit: maybe a minigame

Edited November 17, 2012 by necromate

[Sabotin]

I really enjoyed finding the unique spells in PS:T. I hope to see something similar again. The method of gaining them and the spells themselves were usually connected by flavor, too.

 

I guess wizards will have some staple spells as a base. Perhaps after completing certain parts of the journey (quests, regions,...) the wizard would be able to research new spells to the same theme. For example after completing a swamp region he could research an "entangle type" spell that is swamp based, or summon a "shambling mound thing". After witnessing the royal guard sacrifice themselves in order for their king to escape he could research the "Iron Body" spell. And so on.

 

I think this would fit nicely with the concept of magic and souls being tied together and each individual having their own grimoire that only they can understand.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Sabotin

[Pipyui]

Would he be able to "solve" the scroll without casting/drawing on the soul? <- Like I said in another post "Check/Search/Identify" the scroll in your inventory.

 

Good question. If we can presume shaping magic is like making art, identical spells may be implemented differently depending on the caster. Thus one wizard's fireball scroll may not be identical to another wizard's. Reading an unidentified scroll and translating it into your own implementation might then require at least a basic probing, and maybe some experimentation. Could a booby-trap be hidden in there for the uncareful or unobservant? Maybe.

Identification has it's own criticisms though, addressed in a thread from some time ago: Identifying unknown items

 

Obtaining spells that tie together with your journey sounds neat, and Necromate's comment makes me wonder whether an alternative to learning spells through trainers could be to upgrade certain spells through trainers / quest(s).

Also

frotress

: I like the way you think.

 

Edit: Tried unsuccessfully to include a pic, accidentally removed my profile pic instead

Edited November 17, 2012 by Pipyui

[JFSOCC]

Would be cool if I could share knowledge, and that something I made would be used around me and known as "JFSOCC's nasty trick" or some such.

[Atreides]

I'd prefer it more if your original research would result in discovering completely new spells, but it's neat either way.

Would be nice to unlock <player name's> Spell, to join the ranks of Melf.

 

But then I'd get upset when people copy or plagiarise it.

[Osvir]

^I like that idea, but it springs to mind 2 questions:

 

A, would they be able to copy the spell if I'm not teaching them?

B, could someone copy the spell and pretend that they created it and then I can blast them in the face for pretending?

C, when I've blasted some imitators in the face, perhaps I become recognized as the true master of it, even if others learn it?

[Atreides]

Maybe Melf will only trade you his spells for something new.

 

Learning magic from observation and improvisation would be a very interesting system, but could be difficult to implement. Even then, you'd still need a teacher to get the proper technique down.

[necromate]

I'd prefer it more if your original research would result in discovering completely new spells, but it's neat either way.

Would be nice to unlock <player name's> Spell, to join the ranks of Melf.

 

But then I'd get upset when people copy or plagiarise it.

 

Oh look ppl! I discovered the "cure for all diseases spell", now pay 10.000 golds for my copyrights or DIE! Wouldn't being world famous as the inventor of such spell be enough? Winning the Melf Prize?

[Osvir]

^Well, there could be a dispute as to who actually was first, coincidences happen in a somewhat magical way sometimes. Perhaps someone on the other side of the world came to the same conclusion through their mathematical magical calculations which course was the best to go, to learn this magical spell, so there becomes a dispute as to who was actually first, because to your knowledge, you were the first to create it, likewise was your rival also first to create it. So you have to duel about it.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Osvir

[necromate]

So you have to duel about it.

 

I think great minds accept the notion of sharing. Being a mage is about thinking and not brawling. But worry not, there could be plenty of occasions and reasons for a magical duel, and I'd like to see a showdown between masters too :D

[Osvir]

^Depends on how mature the Wizard is. Is he an Anakin or an Obi-Wan? 2 Evil Sith Wizards battle for power constantly.

 

About sharing spells, could you teach a trainer who then trains others so that you will meet enemies and friends alike using the spell? It could replace the generic other spell that the enemy always casts in battle (over time you'd notice more and more use it, if it's a good spell ofc). This would be a great feature for two reasons,

A, Being able customize your game in a way mid-game, altering the world from within the game (This makes your character feel important imo)

B, Personalizing your game (Hey, you named that spell, and made the spell combining Generic Spell Animation A and Generic Spell Animation B, sure, Obsidian gave you the tools but you "built" it, or at least that's how it could feel like. It could make the game up-close and personal on a personal level).

 

...

Hmm... this brings to thought off topic things (Why is always Good versus Evil, or Evil versus Good? Where is the Evil versus Evil and Good versus Good? Just feels as if it is rare in games altogether)

[Gurkog]

Does melf stand for, 'mother everyone likes to f....'?

 

It would explain the phallic decay spell!

[Umberlin]

Wizards creating a spell, and naming it after themselve isn't a new concept. It actually seems a very appropriate concept, let's face it, some people are plain ol' fashioned vain, and like to stroke their own egos. And, well, you know what, that's part of the fun of playing a magically apt character, if you go by my measure anyways, is the idea that one day, 'you' will be that Wizard making spells and selling them off to adventurers (to make a few coins) whilst keeping the good stuff for yourself. It was one of the things Skyrim lost, as opposed to, say, Morrowind where you could create, "_character name's_ spell that does this or that" . . . though you couldn't sell it, to make money, unfortunately.

 

It's a thing absent from many games though.

 

Anyways, as per Quest for Glory, picking up Erasmus' Razzle Dazzle spell, from him personally, after winning a game of Mage's maze against him, is a most definitely interesting, and fun, way of gaining a spell. At least I think so. Maybe not all spells, but, regardless be it a thing that happens, or not, I still like the idea. Certainly it's not an idea fit for every setting, afterall. I do like it though.

[Pipyui]

The trouble with spellcrafting, and the reason I think Bethesda removed it in Skyrim, was that it was too exploitable (now it's alchemy and smithing to exploit instead ). Mixing predefined spell effects never appealed to me so strongly anyway (I need something new) - at least not so much as to justify the work and balancing. When I want to create my own spells, I think I'll find the most enjoyment out of scripting and modding them in.

[Umberlin]

The trouble with spellcrafting, and the reason I think Bethesda removed it in Skyrim, was that it was too exploitable (now it's alchemy and smithing to exploit instead ). Mixing predefined spell effects never appealed to me so strongly anyway (I need something new) - at least not so much as to justify the work and balancing. When I want to create my own spells, I think I'll find the most enjoyment out of scripting and modding them in.

 

Spell crafting can (and has) been done better, and gutting it is pure Bioware school of though. Is it broken or flawed, could it be better? Don't fix it, don't polish out the flaws or make it better, throw it out entirely!