Awesome Interview with Avellone

[Volourn]

"It was a project, I'll give it that. Not sure I would attach 'finished' to it unless you're using 'finished' as a synonym for 'released.'"

 

It had a beginning, middle, and end. It was finished. DEAL WITH IT.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

"It was a project, I'll give it that. Not sure I would attach 'finished' to it unless you're using 'finished' as a synonym for 'released.'"

 

It had a beginning, middle, and end. It was finished. DEAL WITH IT.

 

It had a beginning and a middle. An end is debatable.

[Volourn]

No, it isn't. It ended. Was it a satisfactory ending? That's up to the indivudal. But, it most 100% definitely ended.

[-Zin-]

It's Avallone's personal preference, though he still writes good romances, so I'm sure he'll do so again. That said; Alpha Protocol did have some awesome romances, even though two of them didn't have what you'd necesarily call a 'happy ending'. The romances/characters were still great, and it fit the story/genre. On second thought, I guess all the romance-options had a 'happy ending' if you angle that phrase correctly LOL though so not my point.

 

Also, most people who don't like romances go: "Alright. *Easily ignore*" But some of them just have such an "us versus them" mentality, like an insecurity. They just can't leave others alone. There is no real debate here. Some people like romance in their stories, and others don't. No amount of arguing or reasoning will change that.

Edited October 31, 2012 by -Zin-

[Death Machine Miyagi]

No, it isn't. It ended. Was it a satisfactory ending? That's up to the indivudal. But, it most 100% definitely ended.

 

That's a pretty shallow way to measure something being 'finished', though. A beta test of a game might have the same beginning, middle, and end. It might also crash every few minutes, have all the dialogue missing for a good chunk of the game, or have a game-ending bug or two. But hey, a beginning, middle, and end means its finished, right?

 

There is more than one definition of 'finished', basically. You're using a forgiving one in which the absolute bare bones exist. I'm using a demanding one in which the game that is released at least comes close to the game they hoped to release.

[Volourn]

"There is more than one definition of 'finished', basically. You're using a forgiving one in which the absolute bare bones exist. I'm using a demanding one in which the game that is released at least comes close to the game they hoped to release. "

 

You know very little of game development. Heck, read the interview. Going by yorud efintion, PST isn't finished either since it's not he envisioned the end product would be and he'd even make changes to it now nearly 15 years later.

 

You are being shallow because you are mistaking personal opinion for actuality. KOTOR2 is a finished project. This is absolute fact.

[Huinehtar]

Nice interview,

 

Just a thing concerning KotORII and "finished" projects (I don't intend to turn the topic into a "finished or not finished" poll, but I'm just pointing something): if a project (video game) is really and totally finished, doesn't it require any patch, any update, any additionnal content (DLC or expansion)? (even if the DLC/expansion subject is arguable for the question "finished or not?")

 

Some people enjoy the "Director's cut" ending ( = release game's ending), and some people enjoy discovering "That-would-be-the-real" ending (through restoration content mods). That points directly KotORII. Everyone enjoys that he/she wants.

 

But debating of "what ending would have to be the 'real' ending" is a bit pointless, since everyone enjoys that he/she wants.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Huinehtar

[Death Machine Miyagi]

"There is more than one definition of 'finished', basically. You're using a forgiving one in which the absolute bare bones exist. I'm using a demanding one in which the game that is released at least comes close to the game they hoped to release. "

 

You know very little of game development. Heck, read the interview. Going by yorud efintion, PST isn't finished either since it's not he envisioned the end product would be and he'd even make changes to it now nearly 15 years later.

 

There is more than one definition of 'finished', basically. You're using a forgiving one in which the absolute bare bones exist. I'm using a demanding one in which the game that is released at least comes close to the game they hoped to release.

 

Torment came pretty darn close, as evidenced by the fact that it had a beginning, middle and end...all of which made sense rather than obviously falling to pieces because of a rush for the Christmas release.

 

You are being shallow because you are mistaking personal opinion for actuality. KOTOR2 is a finished project. This is absolute fact.

 

So was Daikatana. But whatever, I get the sense this 'debate' is going nowhere fast.

[Jasede]

The best man who has ever lived on this beautiful planet Earth, clearly.

Suck it down, promancers.

 

Chris Avellone is going to make you his - (Can I write that? He'd write that, if he posted on forums. But if I get banned I can't heckle you guys anymore so I guess I'll play it safe.)

 

[Brannart]

"There is more than one definition of 'finished', basically. You're using a forgiving one in which the absolute bare bones exist. I'm using a demanding one in which the game that is released at least comes close to the game they hoped to release. "

 

You know very little of game development. Heck, read the interview. Going by yorud efintion, PST isn't finished either since it's not he envisioned the end product would be and he'd even make changes to it now nearly 15 years later.

 

You are being shallow because you are mistaking personal opinion for actuality. KOTOR2 is a finished project. This is absolute fact.

 

I guess I do not understand the difference between personal opinion and facts here. People are obviously giving their opinions not citing scientific experiments proving the finishness of KOTOR2.

[Volourn]

"Just a thing concerning KotORII and "finished" projects (I don't intend to turn the topic into a "finished or not finished" poll, but I'm just pointing something): if a project (video game) is really and totally finished, doesn't it require any patch, any update, any additionnal content (DLC or expansion)? (even if the DLC/expansion subject is arguable for the question "finished or not?")"

 

So, BG1 wasn't finished. I bet every developer whoe ever made would love to continue working or reworking their games if asked and don't think they're a 'finished' or ''perfect product'. I mean dave Gaider even made a mod for BG:TOB. I guess thatw asn't finished either, right? L0L

[Brannart]

So, BG1 wasn't finished. I bet every developer whoe ever made would love to continue working or reworking their games if asked and don't think they're a 'finished' or ''perfect product'. I mean dave Gaider even made a mod for BG:TOB. I guess thatw asn't finished either, right? L0L

 

Sure why not?

[Tsuga C]

But whatever, I get the sense this 'debate' is going nowhere fast.

 

Perceptive! Volourn is a very dedicated defender of certain companies and decisions by those companies that many of the rest of us...find questionable, at best. Regardless, if romances are to be included, I do hope that at least one of them works its way through the emotional rollercoaster ride to a positive and uplifting ending. If I wanted rancor, heartbreak, and bitterness, I'd volunteer for jury duty in divorce court.

[Living One]

Go Volo,GO!!!

 

You tell 'em!!!

 

 

 

Whatever you're discussing about.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Living One

[Michael_Galt]

I don't know if this has already been posted in here, but I loved this:

 

Also, the only reason the romance bits in Mask of the Betrayer worked was because George Ziets helped me with them since he was able to describe what love is to me and explain how it works (I almost asked for a PowerPoint presentation). It seems like a messy, complicated process, not unlike a waterbirth. Don’t even get me started on the kissing aspects, which is revolting because people EAT with their mouths. Bleh. (Chris Avellone)

 

Hilarious.

 

This was also very informative, and I liked getting a "glimpse" of how the developing actually works. Pretty cool.

 

Given your vast experience with designing and developing RPGs, are there any lessons or experiences you'd take from those previous games to avoid in Project Eternity?

Awareness of scope. If you don’t know the scope, find out the specs for each part of the design and development toolbox (build a small level, a medium level, a large level, write a 15 node dialogue, a 50 node, a 150 node or more companion, build a weapon from start to finish, build a critter using the full range of animations, etc.). Then use a stopwatch to time each task until you know how long each one takes, and use that as a gauge of how much work you have in store – then seriously consider cutting it down to 50% or 75% of that amount to account for X factors during production.

Second, always ask “why the player should give a ****?” with every design decision, lore choice, and faction design. When fleshing out the world, keep in mind the player’s role as an agent of change, not your personal presentation. While you do want to put yourself and topics you’re passionate about in a title, that doesn’t mean crap if the player can’t interact with it in a way that empowers them.

Examine pacing and expectations. As an example, Torment was an extremely dialogue heavy game, and I do believe (I can hear pitchforks and torches being gathered) it could have benefited from more dungeon exploration, more combats, in addition to the dialogue depth it had. I tried to correct that when doing Targos in IWD2... I started off with a lot of fights and exploration rewards that immediately highlighted the threat the city was facing, then moved into dialogues (punctuated by a few fights), then a blast-off at the end.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Michael_Galt

[Somna]

I don't know if this has already been posted in here, but I loved this:

 

Also, the only reason the romance bits in Mask of the Betrayer worked was because George Ziets helped me with them since he was able to describe what love is to me and explain how it works (I almost asked for a PowerPoint presentation). It seems like a messy, complicated process, not unlike a waterbirth. Don’t even get me started on the kissing aspects, which is revolting because people EAT with their mouths. Bleh. (Chris Avellone)

 

Hilarious.

 

This was also very informative, and I liked getting a "glimpse" of how the developing actually works. Pretty cool.

 

Given your vast experience with designing and developing RPGs, are there any lessons or experiences you'd take from those previous games to avoid in Project Eternity?

Awareness of scope. If you don’t know the scope, find out the specs for each part of the design and development toolbox (build a small level, a medium level, a large level, write a 15 node dialogue, a 50 node, a 150 node or more companion, build a weapon from start to finish, build a critter using the full range of animations, etc.). Then use a stopwatch to time each task until you know how long each one takes, and use that as a gauge of how much work you have in store – then seriously consider cutting it down to 50% or 75% of that amount to account for X factors during production.

Second, always ask “why the player should give a ****?” with every design decision, lore choice, and faction design. When fleshing out the world, keep in mind the player’s role as an agent of change, not your personal presentation. While you do want to put yourself and topics you’re passionate about in a title, that doesn’t mean crap if the player can’t interact with it in a way that empowers them.

Examine pacing and expectations. As an example, Torment was an extremely dialogue heavy game, and I do believe (I can hear pitchforks and torches being gathered) it could have benefited from more dungeon exploration, more combats, in addition to the dialogue depth it had. I tried to correct that when doing Targos in IWD2... I started off with a lot of fights and exploration rewards that immediately highlighted the threat the city was facing, then moved into dialogues (punctuated by a few fights), then a blast-off at the end.

 

If by dungeons, he was thinking about places like Ravel's Maze...I'd approve!

[Huinehtar]

Thinking about Torment, I'm not really sure that more dungeons would be the best: in Curst, alternating fights and dialogues showed the emergency, it was nervous and perfect for the circumstances.

 

If there would be more dungeons and more fights alternating with dialogues in other places, Curst wouldn't be the same: just another city.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Huinehtar

[Volourn]

"Perceptive! Volourn is a very dedicated defender of certain companies and decisions by those companies that many of the rest of us...find questionable, at best."

 

Name these companies I'm a 'dedicated' defender of? You do realize it's Obsidian I'm defending here right not any other company? This is the same company named Obsidian, btw, who I make fun of when it coems to games like AP, DS3, or SOZ right?

 

Your logic doesn't make sense at all.

[Nidrolok]

There is no real debate here. Some people like romance in their stories, and others don't. No amount of arguing or reasoning will change that.

That's not what people argue about, it's whether romances have a place is PE or not that's up for debate. Would they add something to the game and could they be done in an adequate manner? Do they detract from the narrative or cheapen it in some way? Do they fit within the focus of the game? Such are the questions that are being asked, it's not as simple as liking or disliking romances in general.

[Meshugger]

Oh MCA, don't you ever change. You are the hammer that crushes the mirror of self-indulgent and shallow romance.

[-Zin-]

There is no real debate here. Some people like romance in their stories, and others don't. No amount of arguing or reasoning will change that.

That's not what people argue about, it's whether romances have a place is PE or not that's up for debate. Would they add something to the game and could they be done in an adequate manner? Do they detract from the narrative or cheapen it in some way? Do they fit within the focus of the game? Such are the questions that are being asked, it's not as simple as liking or disliking romances in general.

 

Yes. It's optional and attracts more customers than not having it. I for one, am not gonna play on the hardest difficulty. I'm more intrigued by exploring all the dialouge options, and find out what all the people of this world are all about. Does that mean I should raise my voice and flail angrily at people who happen to like difficult combat? No. Of course not. That would be stupid. However, I do understand there that certain people like something, and I can totally ignore it. Much like romance is can be entirely ignored. Some of the stretch goals I didn't care about at all, like the Adventurer Hall, but is it something I must use? No. But I'm glad it exists for people who enjoy making companions without dialouge options. All the more power to those. Do I think loot is interesting? Not really, but some people love exploring every nook and cranny and loves knowing where all of it is located. Again, cool that some like it. But it would be really weird if "romancers" saying to people who like combat: "Well, there's already going to be a combat system. Why should you have the option of turning up the difficulty, or improving further on the combat system?" (Many like both though, but whatever. Just an example)

 

Point is: Characters are already being written for this game and many people just want to explore as much as possible about them. The more Obsidian reveals about the character, the better. What does this character do aside from saving the world? What makes him/her happy? What makes him/her sad? Is he/she a funny guy/girl, or is he/she mostly serious? Do I like this character or do I hate this character? Does this character like or hate my character? Well, if this character really hates mine, I want to see that expressed. If this character really likes my character, I also want to see that expressed. Is this character gullible, smart, or non-caring of what I do? What will this character do if presented with a choice that would be tough for him/her? Will he/she betray me if the choice is very tough? Is my character important to this other character? Is this character written in a thought out way, or is it a shallow dummy like all the Oblivion/Skyrim NPCs? Do I give a damn about this NPC, and if so, how closely will my character associate with this NPC?

 

Romance is similarly just one out of many important narrative techniques to use. To neglect it entirely is just limiting oneself in terms of story-telling. Again, it won't appeal to everyone, but fortunately, if none of these questions were important to you reading this, then at least you got your combat strategies and loot to make you satisfied, or whatever else that drew you to this game. It's cool with me, brah. I'm not gonna bother you as long as we both get what we want. Actually, I'm not gonna bother other people in general about combat stuff anyway. It would be nice if other people were just as considerate but whatever.

Edited November 1, 2012 by -Zin-

[bonarbill]

All I have to say is thank God that George Ziets is workign on the project instead of MCA doing the story on his own. The only good story MCA produced was Fallout New Vegas DLC (Torment doesn't count; half the lore was already made).

Edited November 1, 2012 by bonarbill

[Volourn]

No, 'half the lore'w asn't already made. The story was original 9well as original as an amnesiac story can be). MCA > U

[Jasede]

All I have to say is thank God that George Ziets is workign on the project instead of MCA doing the story on his own. The only good story MCA produced was Fallout New Vegas DLC (Torment doesn't count; half the lore was already made).

 

Heresy.

 

Yes. It's optional and attracts more customers than not having it.

Where does this "it's optional" sentiment come from? A good romance isn't "optional" in the sense you imply. If a romance were to be well written it would resonate in everything the character says and does in some way or another, no matter if you go down the actual romance path or not. His rejection or acceptance, his attitude, his outlook, his plight- these are all things that would be affected by having the character be involved in a romance with the PC. That's why romances are so hard to write well.

 

It's easy to write an optional romance. Writing one that is good is a completely different matter because everything about the character would have to tie in to the romance in some way as you cannot have this sort of path - even if it were just a path you can take or not take - without it being organically spawned from the nature and theme of the character in question.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jasede

[nikolokolus]

All I have to say is thank God that George Ziets is workign on the project instead of MCA doing the story on his own. The only good story MCA produced was Fallout New Vegas DLC (Torment doesn't count; half the lore was already made).

 

 

Pfffffffft!!!!!!

 

 

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!