Nihilism and Atheism

[Merin]

Atheist is not believing god (or gods) exist.

 

I think what we are looking for, in a fantasy setting with a god (or god-like) being(s) would be a non-worshiper.

 

Or you could be twisting on the semantics of "believing in" something.

 

A person can say "I don't believe in the government" or "I don't believe in Christianity" while fully accepting that government or Christianity exists.

[Schelling]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

It actually came out of some thoughts I had about the physical and metaphysical underpinnings of our own world. When worldbuilding, I think a lot of designers want to explain everything up front. There's obvious value in defining how the world works because it helps everyone wrap their heads around what the setting is about. Over the years, I've felt that breaking down the supernatural into easy-to-comprehend chunks drains the magic from it.

 

Compare this to our own observation and understanding of the physical world. Public reaction to the discovery of the Higgs boson particle was very telling. Despite the scientific community's general requests to stop calling it the "God particle", the public and media couldn't help themselves. A discovery that potentially explains, if not the "why", at least the "how" of existence is appealing.

 

Project Eternity's world has a similar level of flawed understanding. They can perceive souls, they can detect and record some data about them, they can verify their findings to a certain extent, but they still don't really "get" how it all works. Arguably of greater importance, they don't understand why souls work (and don't work) the way that they do. Individuals also don't agree on the role the gods play in the cycle. Last week, our art director, Rob Nesler, came in and asked me, "Are the gods actually gods or just beings of immense power?" While there aren't many people in the world of Project Eternity who deny the existence of gods, that question is one that people in the setting have debated for millennia.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Schelling

[Pope]

^awesome

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

Thank God*.

 

*who may or may not simply be an extremely powerful and nigh omnipotent cosmic kitten that just happens to have an upset stomach, and whose furballs and vomit manifest themselves on the mortal plane as monumental undulations in the spiritual fabric of the universe that holds space and time together so one doesn't go hurtling ahead of the other

[XenoReaper]

Thanks for that bit of JESawyer wisdom. That's one of the reasons I like the heavy-hitters at Obsidian- they truly do love to ask the tough questions.

 

PE is going to be very refreshing for that reason if not for many others.

[Katrar]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

It actually came out of some thoughts I had about the physical and metaphysical underpinnings of our own world. When worldbuilding, I think a lot of designers want to explain everything up front. There's obvious value in defining how the world works because it helps everyone wrap their heads around what the setting is about. Over the years, I've felt that breaking down the supernatural into easy-to-comprehend chunks drains the magic from it.

 

Compare this to our own observation and understanding of the physical world. Public reaction to the discovery of the Higgs boson particle was very telling. Despite the scientific community's general requests to stop calling it the "God particle", the public and media couldn't help themselves. A discovery that potentially explains, if not the "why", at least the "how" of existence is appealing.

 

Project Eternity's world has a similar level of flawed understanding. They can perceive souls, they can detect and record some data about them, they can verify their findings to a certain extent, but they still don't really "get" how it all works. Arguably of greater importance, they don't understand why souls work (and don't work) the way that they do. Individuals also don't agree on the role the gods play in the cycle. Last week, our art director, Rob Nesler, came in and asked me, "Are the gods actually gods or just beings of immense power?" While there aren't many people in the world of Project Eternity who deny the existence of gods, that question is one that people in the setting have debated for millennia.

 

This quote reaffirms every reason I chose to participate in OE's Kickstarter.

[Wombat]

This nails the issue pretty much. This is why I like to read the designers' posts first since quite many of them end the further possible discussions. At times, some people try to continue arguing with them further, but, in most of cases, I think the designers' posts are accepted by most people. The recent implementation of "likes" system seem to work reasonably well - Why don't they integrate it with the search function?

 

As a side note, soul system may work as a hole which leads to some past settings created by some BIS/Obsidian designers. Those who are familiar with their past works have already found such inherited elements in later works. Even in a recent interview, Avellone still seem to like working on "Ravel" character, too.

[Halberd]

Atheists may be very rare in PE (they would probably be hated and considered crazy/ignorant and I guess they would be pretty crazy and ignorant to ignore the PE gods who are clearly there...) but there could still be a lot of irreligious and apathetic people in the game.

 

I.e a farmer guy who ignores and pays no heed to the god and only really cares about his crops

 

A bartender who is afraid/detests the gods and is nihilistic

 

etc. etc.

 

maybe a group of people who want to kill the gods or something.

[.Leif.]

Everybody knows there's no such thing as religion.

 

I suppose it would be nice to know the extent to which those who are called Gods make themselves known to the mortals on the prime-plane. Naturalists could simply ascribe systems to detail the phenomenon around them, from the spells of the priest to the sorcery of the mage.

Edited October 25, 2012 by .Leif.

[Gyor]

 

If I remember right, Gann knows that the gods are real, he just doesn't like them and don't think they are worthy of worship. I think it's the closest you can get to being an ateist in a world where gods are confirmed to exist. Real ateism would be difficult to portray, but I guess it could happen. For example, someone could think that the gods were really just highly evolved beings taking advantage of less deveoped beings, and toying with them for their amusement (kinda like the Goa'uld from Stargate). If someone believe in that kind of scenario, the gods are not really gods, and being an ateist makes sense.

 

Then that brings up the question of what exactly is a "god". Is a normal person who amasses absurd amounts of power a god? About Gann - maybe you are right, I haven't played MotB in a while and I might be misremembering.

 

You want to know what a God is?

 

 

Its a title. At the end of the day a God is a title that is confered upon a being by those that worship it.

 

Many cultures define the term in so many ways to describe so many different beings with such divergent natures that no other trait is as unversally appliable as the one I have provided. The only universal trait across all religions and spiritualities, the common denominator is the worshippers themselves and thier act of confering the title of God/dess.

 

Although in game it appears that while the existance of the Gods is taken for granted, what they are is not, aka are they Gods or powerful beings.

 

 

[Cultist]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

It actually came out of some thoughts I had about the physical and metaphysical underpinnings of our own world. When worldbuilding, I think a lot of designers want to explain everything up front. There's obvious value in defining how the world works because it helps everyone wrap their heads around what the setting is about. Over the years, I've felt that breaking down the supernatural into easy-to-comprehend chunks drains the magic from it.

 

Compare this to our own observation and understanding of the physical world. Public reaction to the discovery of the Higgs boson particle was very telling. Despite the scientific community's general requests to stop calling it the "God particle", the public and media couldn't help themselves. A discovery that potentially explains, if not the "why", at least the "how" of existence is appealing.

 

Project Eternity's world has a similar level of flawed understanding. They can perceive souls, they can detect and record some data about them, they can verify their findings to a certain extent, but they still don't really "get" how it all works. Arguably of greater importance, they don't understand why souls work (and don't work) the way that they do. Individuals also don't agree on the role the gods play in the cycle. Last week, our art director, Rob Nesler, came in and asked me, "Are the gods actually gods or just beings of immense power?" While there aren't many people in the world of Project Eternity who deny the existence of gods, that question is one that people in the setting have debated for millennia.

That's really great! Much better than Gaider's "So what we allowed it in Dragon Age: Origins? We won't do it again!"

[Giantevilhead]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

It actually came out of some thoughts I had about the physical and metaphysical underpinnings of our own world. When worldbuilding, I think a lot of designers want to explain everything up front. There's obvious value in defining how the world works because it helps everyone wrap their heads around what the setting is about. Over the years, I've felt that breaking down the supernatural into easy-to-comprehend chunks drains the magic from it.

 

Compare this to our own observation and understanding of the physical world. Public reaction to the discovery of the Higgs boson particle was very telling. Despite the scientific community's general requests to stop calling it the "God particle", the public and media couldn't help themselves. A discovery that potentially explains, if not the "why", at least the "how" of existence is appealing.

 

Project Eternity's world has a similar level of flawed understanding. They can perceive souls, they can detect and record some data about them, they can verify their findings to a certain extent, but they still don't really "get" how it all works. Arguably of greater importance, they don't understand why souls work (and don't work) the way that they do. Individuals also don't agree on the role the gods play in the cycle. Last week, our art director, Rob Nesler, came in and asked me, "Are the gods actually gods or just beings of immense power?" While there aren't many people in the world of Project Eternity who deny the existence of gods, that question is one that people in the setting have debated for millennia.

 

Translation: "We're still making this stuff up, here's a suitably vague answer that can be interpreted in one of a dozen different ways."

 

But really, the game won't be released for another year and a half, there's the potential for a huge amount of changes to the during during that time.

[Pope]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

snip

 

Translation: "We're still making this stuff up, here's a suitably vague answer that can be interpreted in one of a dozen different ways."

Isn't that what religion is all about?

[TrashMan]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

[JFSOCC]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

in order to have them challenged

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

What prejudices?

[Merin]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

 

I haven't actually seen anyone pre-judging anyone in the thread, but I guess I've not been following THAT closely.

[Giantevilhead]

Just a quote from the latest interview with Sawyer that briefly touches this very subject and might give some fuel to the discussion.

An answer which I found both interesting and pleasing, especially the last section.

 

snip

 

Translation: "We're still making this stuff up, here's a suitably vague answer that can be interpreted in one of a dozen different ways."

Isn't that what religion is all about?

 

No, that's what cults are about. Religions don't make any new stuff up, they just find different ways to interpret the stuff people made up hundreds or thousands of years ago.

[Orogun01]

No, that's what cults are about. Religions don't make any new stuff up, they just find different ways to interpret the stuff people made up hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Cults are just one dead Messiah and a few believers away from being a religion.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Orogun01

[TrashMan]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

in order to have them challenged

 

Meh. The people I see don't seem to want that.

I've seen a rising trend of atheist and religion-haters to demand that fantasy games give them option to kill gods, burn down churches/temples and basicly tell religious folk how they suck.

 

 

And personally, Im fed up with the mathaphyiscal mumbo-jumo.

I had enough soul-searching and exploring the afterlife/soul/death with PS:T and MoTB to last me a lifetime.

I never re-played those games because they left me...drained. Bored in a way.

[Wombat]

So, is it your "unprejudiced" opinion?

 

I don't think we can even recognize "info" without any prejudice or bias and it's nice to experiment some in imaginary world rather than dealing with real people with full of prejudices either in our real lives or through the net. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be an option in our real lives. That said, to be absolutely honest, it's often a controversial topic which has possibility to make things interesting in an experimental environment but, again sadly, quite many people seem to mix such experiment with their real-life views. At least, what interest me in role-playing games is that it allows me to simulate things in various shoes under a certain themes. Traditionally, something like Gulliver, Brave New World and 1984 tried to shed lights upon human nature in imaginary settings, securing themselves from real-world politics, and I'd like to have such experience in games.

[Slaunyeh]

Thor could strike you with lightning every time you denied His existence and you would just write it off as bad luck and unusual weather patterns (or some other denial pattern).

 

 

To quote the Discworld novel, Small Gods: "We get that in here some nights, when someone's had a few. Cosmic speculation about whether gods really exist. Next thing, there's a bolt of lightning through the roof with a note wrapped round it saying 'Yes, we do' and a pair of sandals with smoke coming out. That sort of thing, it takes all the interest out of metaphysical speculation."

 

Of course, the Discworld also have an atheist god, so. Yeah.

[Merin]

Why is it that people always demand to bring with them their prejudices in games?

in order to have them challenged

Meh. The people I see don't seem to want that.

I've seen a rising trend of atheist and religion-haters to demand that fantasy games give them option to kill gods, burn down churches/temples and basicly tell religious folk how they suck.

I could argue that religion "haters" might have some ground to stand on, but really I'll side with saying tolerance (to all beliefs) should be the watchword.

 

And personally, Im fed up with the mathaphyiscal mumbo-jumo.

I had enough soul-searching and exploring the afterlife/soul/death with PS:T and MoTB to last me a lifetime.

I never re-played those games because they left me...drained. Bored in a way.

 

I wasn't drained after them, but I am growing a bit tired of games that focus on "your soul" so that aspect of PE is not winning any points with me.

 

I'm personally quite tired of the anti-trope humor. It grew old excessively fast in PS:T, a game which all but demands you talk to a ridiculous amount of people, that most people you talk to mock you for talking to everyone - people want to talk about passive-aggressive. Next thing we'll have a game where you have to kill everything in sight while being lectured on how horrible taking a single life is at every moment.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Merin

[UncleBourbon]

Thor could strike you with lightning every time you denied His existence and you would just write it off as bad luck and unusual weather patterns (or some other denial pattern).

 

 

To quote the Discworld novel, Small Gods: "We get that in here some nights, when someone's had a few. Cosmic speculation about whether gods really exist. Next thing, there's a bolt of lightning through the roof with a note wrapped round it saying 'Yes, we do' and a pair of sandals with smoke coming out. That sort of thing, it takes all the interest out of metaphysical speculation."

 

Of course, the Discworld also have an atheist god, so. Yeah.

 

Thankfully, there are some great questions, like, what is the sex of the turtle?

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I've seen a rising trend of atheist and religion-haters to demand that fantasy games give them option to kill gods, burn down churches/temples and basicly tell religious folk how they suck.

*gasp*

 

Oh no! Atheists?!

 

 

...I personally find it more offensive that you consider the existence of atheists, even in a fictional fantasy setting, to be offensive on its own. Generally speaking it has been widely agreed upon that other philosophies existing alongside yours is a good thing, and that at best treating them as though they don't exist is kind of mean.