Thoughts on Firearms

[kalniel]

We will have to experiment with firearms to see how integral they are to strategic loadouts and what their different tactical applications are. I want them to feel similar to historical firearms: inaccurate, powerful, and slow to reload, but I want them to be a real choice compared to other ranged weapons. It comes back to the high-level design goal: if we're including something in the game, it needs to be a viable option, not a marginal gimmick or no-brainer.

http://www.gamebansh...iew/page-3.html

 

We felt the beast before anything else - a trembling of the earth rising up through the soles of our feet. Only once we stopped and held our breath did we hear the slightest sounds of its passage through the forest. Immediately Johan, our scout, melted into the trees to circle out ahead of us. Kurt looked at me, pointed to a clearing not far ahead, and simply nodded.

 

I didn't need any more instruction. The others moved into protective positions while I shrugged off my backpack and started unbuckling the various belts and bags around my person. With reverence I removed Kaleh from her oiled wrapping. The blunderbuss gleamed as it caught the light, drawing a scowl from Kurt. He should have been watching the trails, but I can't blame him for stealing a glance at her - almost as pretty as me, and just as temperamental. Nevertheless, I waited for his gaze to move on before retrieving the powder bag from my breast - 'keep it high, keep it dry'.

 

The charge, wadding and shot were put down the barrel and packed down with the ramrod, yes, the boys usually enjoyed watching that bit too, but as the sounds begun to grow louder and more urgent they were keeping their eyes peeled.

 

"Bastard's bringing it in too quick." Abe grunted quietly. "Can't you hurry up?"

 

I didn't answer. You don't rush these things. I levelled the gun and carefully primed the flashpan with a little powder. Slowly, I got to my feet.

 

"Ready"

 

We edged forward the remaining distance to the entrance of the clearing. A soft chanting began behind me and I felt my spirits lift. Before I could nod my thanks Johan suddenly burst into the clearing, grinning. He rolled out of vision just as the bush to the left of the clearing exploded and the beast thundered into view. Its momentum almost took it past us before it noticed us and hesitated for a fraction of a second.

 

Which was just what I was waiting for.

 

The world erupted into a cacophony of noise as I pulled the trigger. The echo rolled around and the sky went black as everything capable of flight in a mile around us lept to the air. I have no idea if I actually hit the beast or not, but the effect was the same either way - it rocked back, too stunned to move. The rest of the party piled in and had the fight almost won before it had recovered.

 

So yeah. I’m worth the wait.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kalniel

[Tusck]

I like the fact they are adding in firearms because it's the natural progression in a society. I always hated games that have thousands of years of history and they never moved past the bow.

[The Mist Devil]

Having some basic firearms will add a little something to the game. It's always fun to see diversity, plus, depending how the mechanics work, it could also quite be an important point to look for during encounters. It add more layers to the required tactics. For exemple "Okay, these bandits have two firearms, I'll have to do X and Y to avoid injuries, I'll do this and that, use my "bullet Reflection spell" to protect my squeashy companion, okay...go!" As a very generic exemple.

[rjshae]

I wonder if we will be able to prep a couple of handguns before combat, fire them off in quite succession (two handed?), then switch to a cutlass? I.e. pirate-style close-quarters combat.

[Grorg]

There's a pen and paper RPG that I play called Arcanis that has introduced firearms to the usual sword and sorcery mix. It's just basic flintlock rifles and pistols but they truly are a fire and forget weapon dealing a large amount of damage then they are a club and treated as an unbalanced weapon. The game designers were going for each PC to carry several flintlocks fire, drop it then fire the next and so on till there is no more pre-loaded weapons. I could see something like this working for Project Eternity.

[Stalwart Pikeman]

I'm looking forward to firearms. Personally, I'd prefer matchlocks to flintlocks, since they fit better alongside bows and swords. Can't tell from the concept art which kind of lock it has though:

 

I'd like to see them either as one shot per combat or with an incredibly long reload time. Either way, they should have insane levels of damage and armor penetration.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to see firearms useable as melee weapons when unloaded. A pistol could double as a one-handed club. A musket could either be used as a two-handed club, or as a spear when you attach a plug bayonet:

 

Edited October 21, 2012 by Stalwart Pikeman

[Sensuki]

At first I was like oh god, not firearms.

 

Now I'm actually looking forward to it.

 

IF (unlikely) they code projectile weapons to potentially cause damage to a target if it passes through the unit (such as firing at something, missing, and it going to the right and hitting someone else) that would make it really good fun.

[Nerei]

I'd like to see them either as one shot per combat or with an incredibly long reload time. Either way, they should have insane levels of damage and armor penetration.

 

Not really sure why an arquebus should have such a terribly long reload time, I have seen tests where reloading an arquebus was about as fast to reload as a windlass reloaded crossbow (effectively the heavy crossbow in d&d).

Remember, the arquebus replaced the crossbow as the ranged weapon of choice for the european armies of the 16th century, that pretty much means it has to be an effective weapon. At least as effective as a crossbow.

Now a skilled archer with a longbow, there's your ranged death incarnate

 

Personally I find the idea of adding firearms great, if for no other reason than it being different from the plethora of fantasy settings that for some reason never invents gunpowder.

[rjshae]

What I'd hoping for with firearms is that they come with realistic effects; both visual and audio. Having the crack of a smooth-bore weapon discharging, accompanied by the rising blue-grey smoke from the blackpowder, would be very dramatic. Otherwise the weapon may just as well be a fancy crossbow.

[KKAtan]

Personally, I'd prefer matchlocks

Didn't know what that was so I just looked up some videos. Man those old types of guns are cool as heck.

 

 

EDIT: I'd also like to see firearms useable as melee weapons when unloaded. A pistol could double as a one-handed club. A musket could either be used as a two-handed club, or as a spear when you attach a plug bayonet:

Kind of like throwing axes in BG2? Those weapons were impractical to manage in the old infinity engine games. We had to go into the inventory and right click the weapon and then activate melee mode.

It was much easier to simply switch to a two-handed sword in the middle of the fight.

 

 

 

Not really sure why an arquebus should have such a terribly long reload time

Remember, the arquebus replaced the crossbow as the ranged weapon of choice for the european armies of the 16th century

Most importantly, it's probably a matter of game balancing. I prefer guns to be balanced rather than game breaking.

 

Then our real world is one thing, the engineers in PE might not have developed their guns as well as we have.

[Nerei]

Not really sure why an arquebus should have such a terribly long reload time

Remember, the arquebus replaced the crossbow as the ranged weapon of choice for the european armies of the 16th century

Most importantly, it's probably a matter of game balancing. I prefer guns to be balanced rather than game breaking.

 

Then our real world is one thing, the engineers in PE might not have developed their guns as well as we have.

 

From a game perspectives it would be more about overlapping weapon. Penetration against heavy armour (plate) is about equal, reload speed is about equal. Damage against unarmored targets probably favors the arguebus (bullets tear the target while the bolt cuts through it). User-friendliness (ease of aiming etc.) should also favor the arquebus from what I have read.

 

Ultimately the potentially unbalancing weapon would be the longbow. Given that the training factor (by far the main disadvantage of the longbow) is not really relevant (we can assume the pc knows how to use the weapon effectively) it would by far win over the other weapons. I once found an article that stated that the longbowmen Henry V had at Agincourt more than matched the muskets used by the russian soldiers during the crimean war in rate of fire, penetration power and range.

[Gulliver]

I like the fact they are adding in firearms because it's the natural progression in a society. I always hated games that have thousands of years of history and they never moved past the bow.

 

It is far from certain that something akin to blackpowder can even be made in a given fantasy world, just like electricity does not necessarily exist.

[Grand Heresiarch]

I would hesitate to say things like "natural progression in a society". That statement implies a singlar path of "progression" which all societies must take, a historical assumption which has been effectively debunked by both cultural anthpologists and historians as both innacurate and ethnocentric. There is nothing natural about any piece of technology, and where and why it is developed are usually associated with the ideological and material conditions of that time. Native american cultures did go for thousands of years with little technological innovation (in north america, the same does not hold for south and central america). Early historians etc referred to them as primitive, but we know look at their complex cultural development and see why they didn't stress trechnological innovation

[Bokob]

If well balanced with other weapons, firearms are good. Some people seemed to think that firearms offers an advantage over any other weapon outhere but it's actually a incorrect, especially with early firearms. The main advantage of a firearm that that anybody can use one with little training. With time, firearms became so easy and cheap to mass produce in a short period of time compared to a bow of equivalent quality that most country chose to equip their troops with rifles. The low production cost and time with the low training requirements made it the weapon of choice of modern military powers.

 

A good archer can shoot faster and farther away then a good rifleman. Over long distances, the trained archer is also more accurate because the rifleman weapon is not very accurate, not matter how good the shooter is. I'm not sure of the place they want to give to firearms in the game but I would say that they should be good medium to short range weapon. They are not as good as a bow in long range and not as good as melee weapon in short range, but they can more or less be useful in both situation.

[Orogun01]

I would really like to see them implemented in sort of a Musketeer/Duelist type of class, particularly because duelist fall short in combat when not dealing critical hit damage. It would really be a great way to balance a class that I've enjoyed playing.

 

It would be really simple to add guns to them and be both balanced and useful in a realistic manner.

Muskets for accurate shots at long range but with so much armor penetration and reload time that makes them ineffective at close quarters.

Blunderbuss for close to mid quarters because of spread shot being able to hit multiple targets.

And a combo of multiple handguns plus rapier/sabre for hand to hand combat.

[AgentOrange]

Well it's not totally new, I mean Arcanum had guns. I never made a gun focused character, but one thing I remember - from the visual side since I don't remember how they were balanced - is that guns could have a lot more variety in how they were constructed and operated. There were a bunch of rare schematics that allowed to create some far-out weapons with interesting visual designs: stuff like Bronwyk's Gun, the Looking-Glass Rifle, and the Hushed Revolver and such. A bow can only be so different, but with a gun you have some more liberty to tinker with the design aesthetics. Of course maybe they're going for a more realistic approach, which is fine, but I always love creatively designed weapons

 

As for balance I feel like they should be able to fire a couple shots in quick succession, but then have a long reload time. Whereas bows could take longer to notch and fire, but never have to be "reloaded".

Edited October 21, 2012 by AgentOrange

[Jojobobo]

Reading the latest interview on sorcerer's place (lookee here: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58248) I'm surprised guns are a common weapon of Priests. Well, surprised and excited - I keep thinking they'll be sporting weapons reminiscent of those used in Constantine. But as to their inclusion in general, yeah I am and always was all for it. Just play Medieval II: Total War - all factions bust out gunpowder late game.

[rjshae]

Reading the latest interview on sorcerer's place (lookee here: http://www.sorcerers...ead.php?t=58248) I'm surprised guns are a common weapon of Priests. Well, surprised and excited - I keep thinking they'll be sporting weapons reminiscent of those used in Constantine. But as to their inclusion in general, yeah I am and always was all for it. Just play Medieval II: Total War - all factions bust out gunpowder late game.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but... will the Priests be carrying holy hand grenades?

[Ausir]

It is far from certain that something akin to blackpowder can even be made in a given fantasy world, just like electricity does not necessarily exist.

 

Even Lord of the Rings had powder being used by Saruman.

[Ausir]

I would hesitate to say things like "natural progression in a society". That statement implies a singlar path of "progression" which all societies must take, a historical assumption which has been effectively debunked by both cultural anthpologists and historians as both innacurate and ethnocentric. There is nothing natural about any piece of technology, and where and why it is developed are usually associated with the ideological and material conditions of that time. Native american cultures did go for thousands of years with little technological innovation (in north america, the same does not hold for south and central america). Early historians etc referred to them as primitive, but we know look at their complex cultural development and see why they didn't stress trechnological innovation

 

It might not be a "natural progression" generally speaking, but the societies in most generic fantasy settings do tend to be based on Europe. And Europe was not in perpetual middle ages for thousands of years.

[XenoReaper]

I support the pre-loaded firearms only approach, where reload times are somewhat problematic in order to achieve balance. My question regarding firearms would be... could you find *enchanted* firearms? For some reason I keep picturing Tim Cain cringing at the thought... a rational guy who goes out of his way to sabotage any efforts to include magic guns in the game.

 

Josh: Hey, has anyone seen those *magic* firearm designs I wrote up?

Tim: (smiles very, very subtly, from beneath a Fallout Power Armor helmet) I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Josh.

Edited October 22, 2012 by XenoReaper

[Ausir]

In Eternity, magic and technology are not inherently opposing forces, unlike Arcanum. So I don't see why enchanted firearms wouldn't be possible.

[XenoReaper]

In Eternity, magic and technology are not inherently opposing forces, unlike Arcanum. So I don't see why enchanted firearms wouldn't be possible.

 

I agree (I was mostly joking before, as I'm sure you could tell). I think that magic firearms would allow for some interesting and somewhat unexplored design space- especially if firearms have some enchantments that are separate and unique from other ranged weapons. I like the idea of a "dimensional anchor" projectile that prevents the injured from using teleportation for a time. I could easily see law enforcement using that kind of thing to capture renegade mages...

[Uszi]

http://en.wikipedia....i/Rifled_musket

 

Smooth bore firearms firing round ball sabbots were really only useful at short ranges. People are quick to criticize the old tactics of lining infantry up in rows to fire muskets at each other, but it was about the only way to fight efficiently with breech loading, smooth bore arms firing round ball sabbots. The tactic negates the long reload times by having multiple lines of soldiers firing, moving back, reloading, and then replacing the soldiers in front who have fired already, and it negates the poor accuracy of each individual gun by turning your whole squad into one giant shotgun with musket lines, basically.

 

I think the big tactical difference should be reload time, or time between follow up shots. A bow should have the quickest reload time, maybe firing an arrow every second or two, since your character just needs to grab an arrow from a quiver and let fly. A cross bow should take a couple of seconds to rewind between shots.

 

Your gun using characters should require at least 5-8 real time seconds between shots to reload if you've been crafting load pouches: small cloth bags with a premeasured amount of gun power. Your character dumps the contents of the cloth bag into the musket then use the bag itself as the wadding. If you're gun using characters have to use horns of gun powder, then it should take, real time, 15 seconds between each shot.

 

It would be awesome if pirate-style tactics of pre-loading multiple flint lock guns, firing each once and reloading after the fight, and using them at only point blank range. Or if your gun using characters could pull loaded, primed guns out of their inventory to save time if you have multiple guns. Otherwise, stand their wasting a bunch of time reloading. So maybe you find a dozen guns, but you have to give them all to Alfonso your gun using dwarf so that you can keep his fire rate up by constantly de-equipping fired guns and equipping primed guns from his inventory that you reloaded between your fights.

 

Or you could move away from muzzle loading to breach loading or auto-loading and cartridge ammunition. But once you have rifled barrels and connical, cartridge ammunition there's no reason to use a bow at all any more.

 

 

A good archer can shoot faster and farther away then a good rifleman. Over long distances, the trained archer is also more accurate because the rifleman weapon is not very accurate, not matter how good the shooter is. I'm not sure of the place they want to give to firearms in the game but I would say that they should be good medium to short range weapon. They are not as good as a bow in long range and not as good as melee weapon in short range, but they can more or less be useful in both situation.

 

Again, I think it depends on if you're firing Minié Ball style conical sabbots out of rifled barrels or not. Once you have a musket with a rifled barrel and you move away from round ball ammunition, it's effective range goes from 50-75 yards to 500. There's no way you're going to hit targets consistently at 500 yards with a bow and arrow, or if you did, the arrow wouldn't have the same penetration at all.

 

Anyway... I guess all of that is moot. You're unlikely to engage any enemy at a range of 500 yards in an isometric RPG. :D

Edited October 22, 2012 by Uszi

[.Leif.]

When I hear that a fantasy game has firearms I go straight for the gunsword. Why the hell not? PEW PEW PEW

 

I just hope they're well balanced.