Chabneruk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 Would you really be seeing all that much of them, based on the perspective though ? Given that, just have to worry about the way they're written. There will be portraits, character art and the likes. Loading screens as well. Maybe an intro or an epilogue. But I agree: They will have to be interestingly written either way. Even better when they are not too beautiful then, because THEN the good writing really will show "Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei? Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei." - Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen
Coincidence Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 I'd be more concerned about their role in the plot and storylines instead of how they look. Make them look "realistic" all you want, but putting them in roles where they're under men, or controlled by men, or are generally helpless, or anything of that nature and it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be the "main" one, but I kind of hope one of the antagonists has a strong female thing going on.
TheMake Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Really, let's be honest now - who'd like an ugly companion in their party if not for comic relief at best?
Darth Trethon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Would you really be seeing all that much of them, based on the perspective though ? Given that, just have to worry about the way they're written. There will be portraits, character art and the likes. Loading screens as well. Maybe an intro or an epilogue. But I agree: They will have to be interestingly written either way. Even better when they are not too beautiful then, because THEN the good writing really will show An ugly character can ruin good writing. If ugly/fat I'm far less likely to care, far more prone to clicking through dialogue and....well....there goes nothing. Maybe the character had epic writing but I went deaf the moment I saw her ugly mug.
BSoda Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Meh, there's plenty of things in real life I'm not fond of.....that's why I play games. If I was perfectly 100% happy with real life I wouldn't watch movies or play games. So thanks but no thanks, they can keep that slice of "real" life out of it. Agreed. Movies / TV / Books / videogames are all a form of escapism. It's not a coincidence that even the actress who plays Brienne in GoT would be considered traditionally beautiful. She certainly doesn't fit her description in the book ("her eyes were the only thing beautiful about her"). Edited October 18, 2012 by BSoda 5
Chabneruk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I'd be more concerned about their role in the plot and storylines instead of how they look. Make them look "realistic" all you want, but putting them in roles where they're under men, or controlled by men, or are generally helpless, or anything of that nature and it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be the "main" one, but I kind of hope one of the antagonists has a strong female thing going on. In a patriarchaic society they would be discriminated. But I also like the idea of a matriarchalic society, in which men are the weak ones. "The Wise Mans Fear" had one and it was pretty cool. In any case, the world should be logical in itself regarding to gender roles. Edit: Agreed. Movies / TV / Books / videogames are all a form of escapism. It's not a coincidence that even the actress who playes Brienne in GoT would be considered traditionally beautiful. She certainly doesn't fit her description in the book ("her eyes were the only thing beautiful about her"). Escapism is an interesting point here, but is your ideal place really somewhere where all women are perfect (and, if it comes to that, willing)? Uhm. Wait. Don't answer that... Still, I'd find it much more interesting when in a world of normal looking women there was one that looked perfect - and then you discover that she is a quite hateable and shallow character and you prefer your not-as-perfect but interesting companion... Edited October 18, 2012 by Chabneruk 1 "Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei? Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei." - Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen
Rostere Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 It has nothing to do with being a sexist when I sometimes wish that in a good storyline there can be sexism, to make a story more interesting and give a female character the feeling of fighting against the odds. Some games also gave female PCs different stats like less base strength but instead, uh... more will or whatever. These kind of things make things more immersive for me. Mount & Blade had women characters in single player which were definitively suffering from sexism (male lords mostly hated them, it was harder to get successful etc.) which made it quite intrigueing to play a woman and to overcome these difficulties with skill in fighting or manipulation. The game should thematise sexism, but not be sexist. It is a fine line to walk for sure, but it would add realism and another level of gameplay. This is exactly what I've been advocating in similar threads. The depiction of women in games has always been very immersion- breaking for me. Why, when I see a NPC with silly armour and proportions is my character not allowed to laugh out loud? Why am I supposed to believe they have any fighting ability at all when they have arms as thin as sticks? This is really schizophrenic in a way, putting women on equal terms gameplay-wise but depicting them all as curvy tarts with skimpy clothes in- game. Above all, it must be very demeaning to women who are athletes or in the army to see these stereotypes. The reason I keep writing about this is that it would be SO EASY to fix. 3 "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"
RaccoonTOF Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Really, let's be honest now - who'd like an ugly companion in their party if not for comic relief at best? Me. So long as the character was well-written, not "worthless" to bring along, and was not written for comic relief in the first place...especially more so if his/her ugliness aspect was something that had to be worked through when it came to inter-party and party-to-outside-NPC reactions. And doubly so if they were not exaggeratedly ugly, but "realistically" ugly with a self-confidence problem that made them believe they were exaggeratedly ugly... And this leaves out the (admittedly stereotypical old crone, but far from stereotypical in just about every other way) character of the type such as...Ravel. I would have LOVED to have that sort of depth and twisted foreshadowing in an ugly companion and not "just" a (very powerful and important, yes) NPC. 6 "If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"
Chabneruk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 And this leaves out the (admittedly stereotypical old crone, but far from stereotypical in just about every other way) character of the type such as...Ravel. I would have LOVED to have that sort of depth and twisted foreshadowing in an ugly companion and not "just" a (very powerful and important, yes) NPC. Ravel, though stereotypical in the "old crone"-way was great! In the end I felt compassion and pity for her, because of her dreams and her suffering and her lost love. Very good example 1 "Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei? Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei." - Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen
Coincidence Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Not sure if someone brought it up yet, but another thing to keep in mind is if you have a bunch of "average" looking men and women making up the game then the people described as "beautiful" really stand out. I forget the universe, but I remember a story where there was one elven civilization that claimed to have a queen so beautiful it was almost alien, and they worshipped her as a goddess, building statues to show off her beauty. Too bad she looked exactly like every other female in her race, making her "beauty" mean nothing. 5
BSoda Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Edit: Agreed. Movies / TV / Books / videogames are all a form of escapism. It's not a coincidence that even the actress who plays Brienne in GoT would be considered traditionally beautiful. She certainly doesn't fit her description in the books ("her eyes were the only thing beautiful about her"). Escapism is an interesting point here, but is your ideal place really somewhere where all women are perfect (and, if it comes to that, willing)? Uhm. Wait. Don't answer that... Still, I'd find it much more interesting when in a world of normal looking women there was one that looked perfect - and then you discover that she is a quite hateable and shallow character and you prefer your not-as-perfect but interesting companion... Lol my ideal place ? The ideal place for pretty much everyone is populated by beautiful people -hence why even the ugly people in movies / tv shows are almost always played by actually attractive people. That's how it has been for the last 100 years or so...your implications that connect this fact to sexuality and shallowness is pretty telling of your character, though. A companion doesn't suddenly grow interesting just because he / she is ugly, neither is he / she "shallow" just because he /she's beautiful. 1
Darth Trethon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Agreed. Movies / TV / Books / videogames are all a form of escapism. It's not a coincidence that even the actress who playes Brienne in GoT would be considered traditionally beautiful. She certainly doesn't fit her description in the book ("her eyes were the only thing beautiful about her"). Escapism is an interesting point here, but is your ideal place really somewhere where all women are perfect (and, if it comes to that, willing)? Uhm. Wait. Don't answer that... Still, I'd find it much more interesting when in a world of normal looking women there was one that looked perfect - and then you discover that she is a quite hateable and shallow character and you prefer your not-as-perfect but interesting companion... I rather a woman look good/acceptable and have some character flaws that can be worked out rather than no character flaws but her looks make you want to go jump off a cliff....that is usually beyond fixing. Sorry, I don't believe in facial reconstruction.
Krios Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 I feel a natural appearance is good, no need to over do it. Design the character models utilizing a range of features and flaws. Some should be fat, some too tall, some with obvious deficiencies. Point being that few will be perfect. 2
Darth Trethon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Kreia intellectually stimulated me. lol that just sounds so wrong.... Kreia was a good character for the role she had to play.
Chabneruk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Lol my ideal place ? The ideal place for pretty much everyone is populated by beautiful people -hence why even the ugly people in movies / tv shows are almost always played by actually attractive people. That's how it has been for the last 100 years or so...your implications that connect this fact to sexuality and shallowness is pretty telling of your character, though. Not really, no. I just don't see the point of a place where everyone is beautiful. Because then no one is. My ideal place is diverse, filled with interesting persons. The only reason I would wish for an abundance of beauty is that it is aesthetically pleasant and sexually stimulating. But "a place filled with beautiful people" doesn't strike me as interesting as "a place filled with people you can relate to", for example. A companion doesn't suddenly grow interesting just because he / she is ugly, neither is he / she "shallow" just because he /she's beautiful. This is true, though. And what I am asking for is that the writing comes first - not beauty for female characters. There might be an interesting, beautiful female character in the game. But that should not be the only female character. (Same goes for male chars too, of course). Edited October 18, 2012 by Chabneruk 4 "Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei? Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei." - Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen
Gulliver Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 On the sexism note - I've often wanted to create (and have run a number of pen and paper campaigns) or see created a world where it is the MEN who suffer from the inferior role, on a grand worldwide scale and not just in some "backwards" matrilineal/matriarchal society looked down on as "uncivilized" or "strange" by the rest of the world. Especially fun was the one campaign where I did this and the PLAYERS had no idea in advance - such a shame for the egotistical male burly fighter who found out that in this world his role was that of "servitude" to do the "dirty work" for the women... While this might be an interesting idea, it is not reasonably possible without changing human biology or introducing some other factor (i.e. only females being able to use magic) that makes it possible for such a society to exist. So for the most part, truly matriarchal societies are probably limited to non-humans. 1
UncleBourbon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Playing Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, and Arcanum, introduced me to the options of ugly, socially stunted characters. I played them often enough in pen and paper, but it is different in a single player game where it can make it much more difficult to find cooperative NPCs. I don't mind it, per se, but I think the attractiveness and such would depend on the health and fitness of people as a whole (I liked how Drakensang handled average NPC appearance). Combined with that, however, is the scientific understanding of nutrition/health, and the potential for magical beuty enhancement. If an enchanted necklace can make to seem a bit softer on the eyes, and isn't hard to find, I imagine many of those who could, would wear it. It does create a bit of an issue - and I don't think we will know for a while what would be realistic levels of beuty and cosmetics in the setting. 2
Darth Trethon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Lol my ideal place ? The ideal place for pretty much everyone is populated by beautiful people -hence why even the ugly people in movies / tv shows are almost always played by actually attractive people. That's how it has been for the last 100 years or so...your implications that connect this fact to sexuality and shallowness is pretty telling of your character, though. Not really, no. I don't see the point of a place where everyone is beautiful, though. Because then no one is. My ideal place is diverse, for example, filled with interesting persons. The only reason I would wish for an abundance of beauty is that it is aesthetically pleasant and sexually stimulating. But "a place filled with beautiful people" doesn't strike me as interesting as "a place filled with people you can relate to", for example. A companion doesn't suddenly grow interesting just because he / she is ugly, neither is he / she "shallow" just because he /she's beautiful. This is true, though. And what I am asking for is that the writing comes first - not beauty for female characters. There might be an interesting, beautiful female character in the game. But that should not be the only female character. (Same goes for male chars too, of course). Not really no, if there were no ugly people and all were happy with everyone else there would be a lot less social issues....like diets and cosmetics and attitude problems and divorces and on and on and on.
jivex5k Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Why don't they depict women as women? What else would they depict them as anyways? Men? If you guys are worried about bikini-clad vixens running around, this isn't DOA beach volleyball here. I'm sure there will be some sexy sultry ladies, and some old haggard crones, some tough fighting lasses, and some salt of the earth farmgirls. Women from all cultures will be represented as is appropriate to their specific character. What's interesting to me is how the different cultures could view women and men, and what their obligations to their culture are. 1
kenup Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 I differentiate between ppw (perfectly proportionate women) and average women here. That does not mean I don't average women less attractive, quite the contrary, because they are believable. And regarding your answer, yes of course Miss Perfect could be the leader. It is simply not as probable. Looks don't define her function as much as her skills. And statistically spoken average looks and high skills are more likely Again I'm not talking about "ppw". Neither do I say that everyone should be a bombshell. But looks matter. One person taking care of herself, can be part of her diplomatic skillset, or it can simply be that she cares about herself, or both, or other things. And again, you say that average, like it's something negative. Not to mention, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Where do you base that beautiful women being skilled is not probable? Looks affect your image and as a result your charisma. And what statistics are those? 1
Chabneruk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Not really no, if there were no ugly people and all were happy with everyone else there would be a lot less social issues....like diets and cosmetics and attitude problems and divorces and on and on and on. I don't agree. People want to stand out. When everyone is beautiful, no one stands out. I guess that would make the whole problem worse. I don't see an automatical "all were happy" only because all people become beautiful. In fact, they would use even more cosmetics or possibly use body modifications to make themselves different. Again I'm not talking about "ppw". Neither do I say that everyone should be a bombshell. But looks matter. One person taking care of herself, can be part of her diplomatic skillset, or it can simply be that she cares about herself, or both, or other things. And again, you say that average, like it's something negative. Not to mention, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Where do you base that beautiful women being skilled is not probable? Looks affect your image and as a result your charisma. And what statistics are those? I am talking about genetic beauty here, not taking care of onesself. I do not say average women are not beautiful, in fact, that is my point: They can be beautiful as well! It does NOT take a bombshell to have an interesting, beautiful female character. And the statistics I meant are pretty simple: Lets say, there are 20% "good-looking", 60% "average" and 20% "ugly" women out there (and that is a very generalizing statistic, sorry for that). Then it is quite more probable for the skillset to belong to the 60%, as long as you don't think that beauty and skill are correlated. Which, given diplomacy, might be the case, but certainly not in terms of lockpicking, acrobatics etc. (staying true to the thiefs guild example). Edited October 18, 2012 by Chabneruk "Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei? Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei." - Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen
Darth Trethon Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Not really no, if there were no ugly people and all were happy with everyone else there would be a lot less social issues....like diets and cosmetics and attitude problems and divorces and on and on and on. I don't agree. People want to stand out. When everyone is beautiful, no one stands out. I guess that would make the whole problem worse. I don't see an automatical "all were happy" only because all people become beautiful. In fact, they would use even more cosmetics or possibly use body modifications to make themselves different. That would be when character would stand out more since looks would no longer hold an important place. So you would be happier too. And more marriages would last because people could no longer let themselves go and turn into things that could have spawned out of horror films. Edited October 18, 2012 by Darth Trethon
SarcasmoTheGreat Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Will we be able to specialize in sandwich mastery? /misogyny Edited October 18, 2012 by SarcasmoTheGreat
kenup Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Not really no, if there were no ugly people and all were happy with everyone else there would be a lot less social issues....like diets and cosmetics and attitude problems and divorces and on and on and on. I don't agree. People want to stand out. When everyone is beautiful, no one stands out. I guess that would make the whole problem worse. I don't see an automatical "all were happy" only because all people become beautiful. In fact, they would use even more cosmetics or possibly use body modifications to make themselves different. Again I'm not talking about "ppw". Neither do I say that everyone should be a bombshell. But looks matter. One person taking care of herself, can be part of her diplomatic skillset, or it can simply be that she cares about herself, or both, or other things. And again, you say that average, like it's something negative. Not to mention, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Where do you base that beautiful women being skilled is not probable? Looks affect your image and as a result your charisma. And what statistics are those? I am talking about genetic beauty here, not taking care of onesself. I do not say average women are not beautiful, in fact, that is my point: They can be beautiful as well! It does NOT take a bombshell to have an interesting, beautiful female character. And the statistics I meant are pretty simple: Lets say, there are 20% "good-looking", 60% "average" and 20% "ugly" women out there (and that is a very generalizing statistic, sorry for that). Then it is quite more probable for the skillset to belong to the 60%, as long as you don't think that beauty and skill are correlated. Which, given diplomacy, might be the case, but certainly not in terms of lockpicking, acrobatics etc. (staying true to the thiefs guild example). And where are those statistics based? Why is only 20% good looking if as you say, average women can be beautiful? Statistics are, or at least should be, based on a population or a group. Natural beauty also needs to be taken care of. And again if "average" can be beautiful, why would that beauty not affect her diplomatic and social skills, or at least their success? Edited October 18, 2012 by kenup
Recommended Posts