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Piccolo

Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

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I've seen a lot of people in dungeon-related threads asking for exits to the surface at every other level. Personally, I think this is a bad idea.

 

In my opinion, the dungeon should be something you should finish once you've started, but obviously not in one sitting (which is why games have a save function). Even if it takes several days, or even more than a week to get through (depending on how often you play video-games).

 

The idea of being able to return to the surface whenever you want willy-nilly to sell loot and pick flowers, before returning later on is ridiculous. It completely undermines the idea of being lost in the depths of an ominous, epic dungeon. Look at The Lord of the Rings for example. I'm pretty sure the fellowship didn't return to the surface from Moria every half hour to sell loot. Besides, I actually like the idea of being forced to make choices with regards to which loot I take and which loot I leave behind, rather than being able to clean the whole place out completely. It makes things a lot more interesting and also adds some replay value to the dungeon in another playthrough.

 

And if you're someone who really finds the idea of dungeon crawling so tedious that you can't stand the idea of being stuck in a dungeon for any great length of time, the answer is simple - the mega dungeon isn't for you. Stick to the smaller dungeons. Hopefully it'll be tied to a sidequest anyway instead of the main storyline, and therefore be completely optional.

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I think it should be 100% like in Diablo 1.

 

There is a town nearby where you can sell loot and get quests related to the dungeon (since the occupants of the dungeon have troubled the villagers for some time). And as you progress in the dungeon you uncover new exits to the surface. I'm thinking one new exit every fourth level (just like in Diablo 1).

The dungeon should become immensely more difficult the further down you travel and there should be several bosses on the way.

Edited by Potemkin
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Well, I would prefer a Diablo-like approach. Not an exit on every level, but some old and forgotten secret passages, teleporters etc. every 3-5 levels or so. They should take some mini-quest to find or activate, though.

 

If you want to play it your way you can still choose not to use them - and leave as much loot behind as you wish ;) But seriously, the "only-my-way-is-the-true-and-hardcore-way"-approach? I don't think you'll get it. There are a lot of players out there who supported PE and want to play the eternal dungeon. You should not judge them if they don't like your personal dream of a 14-level-in-a-row-dungeon.

 

edit: And I totally support Potemkins idea of the dungeon getting harder. Maybe it should even have Minibosses, after which you need to play the rest of the game for a while because the enemies become far too difficult after them.

Edited by Chabneruk
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"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

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You can still sit and finish it in one go, you dont have to use that exits(which we dont if they exist yet) It will be an option if they include it.

 

You are just being against more options.

 

Edit: Diablo 1s shortcuts are good example.

Edited by cyberarmy
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Nothing is true, everything is permited.
 

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I think returning to a town to rest and/or restock should always be readily available. Like a “rest” button, there could also be a “fast travel” button which allows you to travel to any map you’ve previously visited.

 

However, returning from the town back to where you left should require you to do the whole descent again.

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I am leaning towards an endurance dungeon. If its going to be 13+ levels, it should be very difficult to reach the bottom. If there are some random encounter respawns minus any specific boss encounters, I think it would add to the challenge. Of course on the Path of the Damned difficulty it should get rediculous.

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You are just being against more options.

Nah, sometimes providing an easy exit ruins the whole experience (see Skyrim).

 

I hate large dungeons. There, I said it. I don't care if we go 6 or 9 or 14 levels down, I know I'll find it tedious and frustrating anyway (unless it's focused on lore, then I might be interested). However, I don't want to destroy the feeling of a giant, underground construction, so I don't want easy exits or fast travel. I'm supposed to feel trapped inside, right?

 

I never played Diablo, but from what you described I kind of like this system. A secret shortcut you have to discover? I'm all for it. Just please, don't put an elevator on every level. It's an expedition, not a stroll in the park.

Edited by Rosveen
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You can still sit and finish it in one go, you dont have to use that exits(which we dont if they exist yet) It will be an option if they include it.

 

You are just being against more options.

Sorry, but the more options excuse is BS. Bethesda use that same excuse to justify all the hand-holding features they ruin their games with.

 

What it really boils down to is this. Developers are afraid to frustrate gamers anymore, so they design overly accessible games that hold your hand, then rely on players to choose to ignore all the hand-holding that's shoved in their face to experience the game as it should be experienced.

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I agree with this if the dungeon is for an endgame scenario or if there's emphasis on a survival aspect in PE. The dungeon should only suit those who appropriatly prepare for the long run, and players who don't quickly find themselves unable to survive long.

Regardless, it would be terrible to make you traverse all the way back each time, especially if you prepare, and the next half hour or so of gameplay is "click. click. click. load." through empty halls.

 

If your party has the right resources and they're in no immediate danger (injuries, poison, exhaustion etc.) they should be able to make preperations to leave, because you prepared for it, and going back down to where you were can have something similar to overworld travel with random chance of events.

Another addition that could work with the above choices is a unique resource for the dungeon that tracks your progress so long as you have it to place, like a breadcrumb trail or floor marker. That way you need to be appropriatly prepared to heal everyone and mark the right path back to the entrance.

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I think the mega-dungeon should be something that any player can experience, but only a highly skilled gamer can complete, so I agree that it shouldn't be too easy to enter.

 

Perhaps an answer would be to have a token-vendor who sells an expensive single-use key for entering the mega-dungeon. When you use the key your game state is saved and the key lost, so you can't just reload. Now, every four levels or so you can fight a boss and activate a portal. If you activate the portal, you can either leave the mega-dungeon (or stay) and - if you leave - the next key you buy will take you to the entrance instead of the portal.

 

Hardcore players might be able to complete the mega-dungeon for the price of one key (say 1000 gold or whatever), average players might spend five or six keys and complete losers (like me) would just struggle in the early levels burning key after key without ever reaching the first portal.

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Sorry, but the more options excuse is BS. Bethesda use that same excuse to justify all the hand-holding features they ruin their games with.

 

What it really boils down to is this. Developers are afraid to frustrate gamers anymore, so they design overly accessible games that hold your hand, then rely on players to choose to ignore all the hand-holding that's shoved in their face to experience the game as it should be experienced.

 

You are not telling us that Diablo is one of the "new games" that are too easy, are you? And as I recall, BG and Icewind Dale also used the "3 levels, one shortcut"-approach.

 

Your argument is: "Games get too easy." I agree, there are a lot of very easy games out there, for casual gamers. And there should at least be features in PE to avoid that if you want. Thus: additional difficulty modes.

 

But I do not see shortcuts and "Game gets too easy" in the same category. You can have a hard game with Diablo-Style-Shortcuts. You can have an easy game without.

Edited by Chabneruk
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"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

- Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen

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Seriously, you are just being ridiculous.

 

DONT USE THEM! No one is forcing you. You dont want to use them, fine, then dont. Simple as that.

Noone is going to force you to use them if they do please send them to me.

Everything rely on the players, are you really naive enough to think even if Obsidian wont include some exit/shortcuts, every player will finish it in one go and wont try to "cheat"?

 

There will be mods, console commands, trainers maybe even cheatcodes which can be used to exit Mega dungeon.

 

 

And about your link, try playing only with that(derp) face in Expert Trials of Iron mode.

Edited by cyberarmy
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Nothing is true, everything is permited.
 

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Sorry, but the more options excuse is BS. Bethesda use that same excuse to justify all the hand-holding features they ruin their games with.

 

What it really boils down to is this. Developers are afraid to frustrate gamers anymore, so they design overly accessible games that hold your hand, then rely on players to choose to ignore all the hand-holding that's shoved in their face to experience the game as it should be experienced.

You are not telling us that Diablo is one of the "new games" that are too easy, are you? And as I recall, BG and Icewind Dale also used the "3 levels, one shortcut"-approach.

No. Diablo and the IE games are nowhere near as bad as a lot of newer games for holding the player's hand, but I still think allowing the player to enter and exit a dungeon freely every few levels is far too convenient and undermines the the feeling you should get from being lost in a huge, seemingly endless dungeon.

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I think the dungeon should not have an easy-to-access exit. Just walk the damn dungeon! Back and forth! But, for the lazy people, a maximum total of one portal is allowed by me! No merchant next to the entrance - the dungeon isn't a theme park with many tourists visiting on a daily basis! It's a dungeon! Also, the dungeon should get more and more difficult the lower you get! If you can't beat it, just walk back to the surface and train yourselves before re-entering again!

 

And a town that's plagued by the inhabitants of the dungeon? That sounds so cliché and small! A town, with 10 houses and some farms - troubled by a huge 13-story deep dungeon? What's wrong with a huge long-forgotten dwarven city with connecting tunnels to some locked demon, a mad wizard or a drow-like city? A labyrinth of tunnels with an underground sea in which a huge kraken-like creature lies dormant for thousands of years but was recently awakened due to some stupid dwarf or gnome that dropped a pebble on its head? An enormous temple - dedicated to a forgotten god who became angry and started spewing out undead and demons because he was forgotten and longs for a hug or a sword in his mortal form?

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Sorry, but the more options excuse is BS. Bethesda use that same excuse to justify all the hand-holding features they ruin their games with.

 

What it really boils down to is this. Developers are afraid to frustrate gamers anymore, so they design overly accessible games that hold your hand, then rely on players to choose to ignore all the hand-holding that's shoved in their face to experience the game as it should be experienced.

Nope. There's never a time when More Options are a bad thing. And You can call it "hand holding", and a product of the "modern era", or whatever, but dungeon exits at every level have existed in RPGs since like, forever. BG2's watcher's keep had them. Temple of Elemental evil, not only had exits on just about every level, but it also gave mages the Teleport Spell, so that they, and their entire party, could instantly exit the dungeon from anywhere in it.

Edited by Stun
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Everything rely on the players, are you really naive enough to think even if Obsidian wont include some exit/shortcuts, every player will finish it in one go and wont try to "cheat"?.

 

I only agree with this when it concerns optional playstyles, like a slow time spell in an action-RPG that renders combat easy. There's a difference though when the developer's design something with the intent that a majority of players will use that method, then the alternative playstles tend to get overlooked. The Devs should think of the immersive and long ways to tackle a situation first, THEN throw in all the sneaky shortcuts based on your skills or level design.

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While it would be a bit of a time commitment, I think it would even be fun if you actually start out waking up trapped on the very BOTTOM floor, equipment taken from you. Then you HAVE to fight your way out. Kind of like in Ultima 7 part 2 (trapped in the Mountain of Freedom), there could still be vendors and the like throughout the dungeon. 13 or 14 levels, there's got to be some kind of economy or system for those cultists in the lower levels. Surely they don't trek all the way up when they need some milk for their tea.

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I'm all for no convenient dungeons exits myself, but it seems it'd be easy to please both camps here. Have convenient exits for those who want them, but block those exits off on the hardcore game modes to increase the challenge.

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14 lvl megadungeon without exit like OP wants is just impossible to make without making the game with endless ammo for range weapons, spaseles backpack without weight and so on... Or without some stupid, not logical trader NPSs in the parts of it. (because it is a 14lvl dungeon after all, and not some Undeground of drows)

And so that just won't gonna happen in PE :p

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It's not impossible at all. Enemies that carry bows and slings can drop ammo just like in BG1, and since it's not simply a dungeon, but the ruins of an ancient castle there should be stores of supplies, alchemical and crafting facilities and various other amenities scattered throughout. It should be possible to find lots of strange and rare ingredients for crafting in a place where no adventurers dare to tread.

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Sorry, but the more options excuse is BS. Bethesda use that same excuse to justify all the hand-holding features they ruin their games with.

 

What it really boils down to is this. Developers are afraid to frustrate gamers anymore, so they design overly accessible games that hold your hand, then rely on players to choose to ignore all the hand-holding that's shoved in their face to experience the game as it should be experienced.

Nope. There's never a time when More Options are a bad thing. And You can call it "hand holding", and a product of the "modern era", or whatever, but dungeon exits at every level have existed in RPGs since like, forever. BG2's watcher's keep had them. Temple of Elemental evil, not only had exits on just about every level, but it also gave mages the Teleport Spell, so that they, and their entire party, could instantly exit the dungeon from anywhere in it.

Of course more options can sometimes be a bad thing. If you shove a bunch of features in the game that make it too easy, just to give people the "option" of an easier experience, that's bad design... even if players can technically choose to ignore such features.

 

And mentioning games like BG2 and ToEE to try and justify being able to leave a dungeon mid-way through just because they're older games is irrelevant. Those games were wrong to do it also.

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Landuin

point taken, withdrawal ^_^

Edited by void_dp

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Having convenient exits ruins the game experience?!

 

Yeah because my FAVORITE part of a game is always the part where I spend half an hour running through 12+ consecutive load screens to get somewhere.

 

If you want to make it feel huge, sprawling, and complex, you don't do that by making it stupidly inconvenient for no good reason. What you do, is make it convoluted as heck. Instead of having 1 nice convenient exit per 4 levels that's right in the middle of town, you have a dozen exits that lead to various areas that interconnect with various other areas in weird ways. Sure, as soon as you pop out you can fast travel to a shop and sell off your loot. Then you go back, and discover that getting back IN that way winds up leading you into a part of the dungeon you haven't explored yet and you're not sure how it connects with what you've seen so far . . .

 

The Eye of the Beholder games did this really well. There were fast travel gates and teleporters all over the place, yet still getting to the NEXT part of the dungeon was a considerable effort. You don't HAVE to be a **** in order to create a fun level of bafflement and dread.

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Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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I'm all for no convenient dungeons exits myself, but it seems it'd be easy to please both camps here. Have convenient exits for those who want them, but block those exits off on the hardcore game modes to increase the challenge.

Or... make those exits part of the dungeon's challenge itself.

 

You're 5 levels down. Wanna leave? Sure, here's an exit to the surface..... Guarded by a (insert elite/boss-level enemy.... or puzzle... or nasty trap) Get past this challenge, and you've earned the right to see the Sun again.

Edited by Stun
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I think there should be no city nearby. After all, the ruins are in the middle of the darn wilds, right? The ruins are rumored to be evil and deadly, the ruins are known as a quantity and they've been there for a remarkably long time. I think that anyone who builds a city there isn't going to be thinking, "Let's get money from rich adventurers," because adventurers aren't a constant flow of people. Not even once a year, I'd guess. So no city nearby.

 

Now I do know what you're saying is "Please make this convenient," and I'd have to say, "Please play Baldur's Gate." You're not going to have to maneuver your character for hours to get that character out of a hairy dungeon. You're going to end up in the world of Mankind soon enough, through zoning procedure, world maps, etc. It will take a week or so in the game though. Maybe half-a-month.

 

 

 

I think it should be 100% like in Diablo 1.

 

There is a town nearby where you can sell loot and get quests related to the dungeon (since the occupants of the dungeon have troubled the villagers for some time). And as you progress in the dungeon you uncover new exits to the surface. I'm thinking one new exit every fourth level (just like in Diablo 1).

The dungeon should become immensely more difficult the further down you travel and there should be several bosses on the way.

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