evdk Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) It`s a load of crap IMO, if you fight someone and kill it, you deserve a reward, if you don`t want players to kill your precious NPCS, make them immortal or super strong. But you can kill them and you will even get a reward where applicable. And you will get loot anyway. What are you, Pavlov's dog? Edited October 15, 2012 by evdk 1 Say no to popamole!
morhilane Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I'm totally for this. Otherwise I just power game and do exactly what Josh said: double back to kill NPCs after completing quests, hack over using passwords because it give more XP/credits, etc Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.
Valorian Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. I'm amused at what lengths and stretching of the mind some people go to equate killing of enemies and exploration in a single-player rpg (not MMO) to grinding... Why would this help not putting a billion of trash mobs in the game? Wouldn't they actually care more to not put a billion of trash mobs in the game if they actually handed out xp?
Troller Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Best way to improve your combat skills is doing combat, if you kill something, your combat skills improve, unless its like a little kid or a little dog or a baby.
Osvir Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. How about being better at taking the specific enemy down? By taking down 15 Goblins you get +1 to "thaco" towards that specific creature. 1
Valorian Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It`s a load of crap IMO, if you fight someone and kill it, you deserve a reward, if you don`t want players to kill your precious NPCS, make them immortal or super strong. It's called 'loot'. Not every enemy will have 'loot'. What would you loot from a zombie? The rags? 1
Hormalakh Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I really liked the idea that killing a new type of monster should give you ever-shrinking amounts of XP. A few other things should give you XP like thievery, spellwriting, and other things as seen in IE games. My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html
Valorian Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. How about being better at taking the specific enemy down? By taking down 15 Goblins you get +1 to "thaco" towards that specific creature. How about putting learn-by-doing TES style where it belongs... in the trash bin. 2
quechn1tlan Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Best way to improve your combat skills is doing combat, if you kill something, your combat skills improve, unless its like a little kid or a little dog or a baby. Hey - that's a good idea. Giving two different sets of levels. You gain combat levels by killing things and you get "social" levels by talking, picking locks and sneaking around. 1
Hormalakh Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. How about being better at taking the specific enemy down? By taking down 15 Goblins you get +1 to "thaco" towards that specific creature. OH! That's AMAZING! Give "XP" that is used towards specific mechanics! Lockpicking more increases your lockpick skill. Speech skill increases your speech skill more. Combat increases THACO. Then XP can be used towards other things like unlocking PERKS and SKILLS. 1 My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html
evdk Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. I'm amused at what lengths and stretching of the mind some people go to equate killing of enemies and exploration in a single-player rpg (not MMO) to grinding... Why would this help not putting a billion of trash mobs in the game? Wouldn't they actually care more to not put a billion of trash mobs in the game if they actually handed out xp? What grinding? Never mentioned any grinding. What are you yammering about? Say no to popamole!
evdk Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It`s a load of crap IMO, if you fight someone and kill it, you deserve a reward, if you don`t want players to kill your precious NPCS, make them immortal or super strong. It's called 'loot'. Not every enemy will have 'loot'. What would you loot from a zombie? The rags? The zombie might very well be part of a "Please help purge our abbey of the curse of undeath" quest. And also, why do you need to kill it anyway? Say no to popamole!
Troller Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Also what is the big deal of making a peaceful solution to a quest, then later killing everyone? I always did that when I could in RPG`s, "degenerate gameplay" ? what the hell, isn`t the point of an rpg to be able to roleplay the character the way you want to?
aVENGER Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Best way to improve your combat skills is doing combat, if you kill something, your combat skills improve, unless its like a little kid or a little dog or a baby. Actually, XP is an abstraction, unless you are dealing with "learn by doing" systems like the one used in Oblivion and other TES games.
Hypevosa Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I think it subverts the impetus to explore maps and clear dungeons if you don't gain experience for killing the enemies you find there. If a group of guys is part of a quest? No experience for killing them. But if I go to the furthest corner of the map and end up fighting off a random troop of hob goblins attacks me, I want experience for killing them, ya know? What if you got experience for going to said dungeon level and reaching the point right past the hobgoblins. What difference should it make how you got to that point as long as you got it. Fighters will kill to get there, wizards might shove enemies out of the way to get there, diplomats will talk their way there, etc. They all had to struggle to get there. But then aren't we then limiting you to having to CLEAR dungeons? What about just offing that party of hob goblins and moving on? Again, it makes doing little extra things less rewarding. Why bother clearing the crypt of undead if I just need to kill 5 to get to where I want to go? How would getting much less battle experience equate equal leveling experience? It makes sense in quests because you now allow for non-combat skills to save the day. God forbid someone actually makes a diplomacy check and gets the bandits to hand the goods back over without killing all of them, I agree, this is where not getting exp for kills is a good thing. However, if I'm exploring our deeper dungeon, what incentive do I have to clear the thing out if a rogue can sneak past everyone to get all the loot? Or are we going to have awesome loot on every body? I just feel that for quests, having exp be given at the end of the quest makes sense for role playing purposes. However, for exploration and general "adventuring" purposes, I feel exp for killing enemies makes more sense. 1
Althernai Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 what the hell, isn`t the point of an rpg to be able to roleplay the character the way you want to? You can still roleplay your character the way you want to. The only difference is that the game will not be rewarding you for doing things for which no sane DM would ever reward a player.
HeedlessHorseman Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) I like this experience system. This makes playing a stealth- or persuasion-based character as viable as a combat character. Also, I enjoyed the Neverwinter Nights modules the used a similar system. Another reason that I like it is that it reminds me of the D&D games that I used to play. Experience tended to be awarded at the end of the session. I posted this in the other thread. It is two possible ways of how an objective-based system could play out: These are just two ways that I could see an objective-based experience system playing out. I will use an example of rescuing a villager from goblins. (For this example I am not going to consider options like siding with the goblins, persuading the goblins to release the villager, or killing both the goblins and the villager.) Objective-based – No Experience from Killing You can have a full assault or can sneak in and rescue the villager without any of the goblins noticing. You will get the same amount of experience either way at the end of the quest. Objective-based – Experience from Killing Each quest will have a set amount of experience awarded. I will use 1000 points for this example. For the direct approach- killing each goblins will award some experience. If there are 4 goblins, each will award 200 experience points. Returning the villager will award the remaining 200 experience points. For sneaking- getting the villager out of the camp without the goblins noticing will award 800 experience points and the final 200 will be for the villager reaching the village. Edited October 15, 2012 by HeedlessHorseman
aVENGER Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 OH! That's AMAZING! Give "XP" that is used towards specific mechanics! Lockpicking more increases your lockpick skill. Speech skill increases your speech skill more. Combat increases THACO. Then XP can be used towards other things like unlocking PERKS and SKILLS. And what prevents you from sneaking past enemies and getting the stealth bonus, then talking to them and getting the speech bonus and finally killing them and getting the combat bonus?
Osvir Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 It's completely nonsensical. I can kill 100,000,000 goblins and not get better with my sword. Hand a guy a magic marble and suddenly I'm better with my sword. It's terrible design. This should help not putting 100.000.000 of bloody trash mobs in the game. And, as has been previously pointed out, murdering umptillion of gobbos helping you become more persuasive is equally retarded, because the system is only a abstraction of reality. How about being better at taking the specific enemy down? By taking down 15 Goblins you get +1 to "thaco" towards that specific creature. How about putting learn-by-doing TES style where it belongs... in the trash bin. Good point. I was just thinking about Final Fantasy II (which is the reversal of gaining experience from journeying, and it's utterly utterly utterly horrible. Although the story is great, it really suffers because of this). Now this isn't what I'm aiming for with my suggestion, TES in the trash bin. If you and I discussed for a while you'd find my weak points and strong points in terms of discussing, right? If I fought a Goblin a couple of times I would do the same, the first few times I might even lose and have to run away because I have no idea what the crap I'm facing, it's patterns and what it does, can it cast Magic? Is it a Shaman in the Goblin population? Things like that make the character's combat attitude grow. Read Vagabond, please.
Troller Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Best way to improve your combat skills is doing combat, if you kill something, your combat skills improve, unless its like a little kid or a little dog or a baby. Actually, XP is an abstraction, unless you are dealing with "learn by doing" systems like the one used in Oblivion and other TES games. Yeah I know, maybe those systems are better than not getting xp for killing things :/ why change this, fallout BG 2 Torment, all had that and were great... Try to go out into the street and get into a fights, or even just join a gym(that`s safer) and challenge some people, winning or losing, your fighting skills will most likely improve, you will get confidence, I used to fear a lot getting into conflicts, after years of martial training and sparring with people, your confidence improves a lot...
Hormalakh Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Well I would think that in this world, killing creatures willy-nilly would be looked down upon (just as it is here in the real world). You would want good reasons to kill others. One is to save your own skin (unless you are a fighter and can take the heat) and another is to value the sanctity of life regardless if hobgoblin or orc. My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html
Infinitron Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) But then aren't we then limiting you to having to CLEAR dungeons? What about just offing that party of hob goblins and moving on? Again, it makes doing little extra things less rewarding. Why bother clearing the crypt of undead if I just need to kill 5 to get to where I want to go? How would getting much less battle experience equate equal leveling experience? There's an unspoken assumption here that you really, urgently NEED that granular level of experience you'd get from only partially clearing the dungeon. But I don't think you do, not really. Not everything in a game needs to reward you. As long as the game is built around its experience mechanic effectively, it shouldn't really bother anyone. Edited October 15, 2012 by Infinitron 1
Osvir Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) OH! That's AMAZING! Give "XP" that is used towards specific mechanics! Lockpicking more increases your lockpick skill. Speech skill increases your speech skill more. Combat increases THACO. Then XP can be used towards other things like unlocking PERKS and SKILLS. And what prevents you from sneaking past enemies and getting the stealth bonus, then talking to them and getting the speech bonus and finally killing them and getting the combat bonus? Separate experience levels? EDIT: Though that is leaning dangerously close to TES now when I'm thinking about it xD I don't imagine it like TES by the way, not by a mile. You wouldn't gain experience "all the time" when Sneaking, but rather completing tasks would reward you with that experience. TES system can be done much better, it also makes a lot of sense (the concept and some of the presentation, definitely not all). Edited October 15, 2012 by Osvir
Hormalakh Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 OH! That's AMAZING! Give "XP" that is used towards specific mechanics! Lockpicking more increases your lockpick skill. Speech skill increases your speech skill more. Combat increases THACO. Then XP can be used towards other things like unlocking PERKS and SKILLS. And what prevents you from sneaking past enemies and getting the stealth bonus, then talking to them and getting the speech bonus and finally killing them and getting the combat bonus? It doesn't. But as in real-life the more I practice something, the better I become. As long as I keep my rewards limited to the skill that am practicing, the better I get at that. You don't get generalized experience points for doing those things, you get specific rewards. So if your PC is a jack-of-all-trades that's goign to be a really slow game (and maybe there can be a limit here too). But if you want to become an expert in something, then that is what you continue to practice. My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html
evdk Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Best way to improve your combat skills is doing combat, if you kill something, your combat skills improve, unless its like a little kid or a little dog or a baby. Actually, XP is an abstraction, unless you are dealing with "learn by doing" systems like the one used in Oblivion and other TES games. "Troller" is "Nigro", my friend. Discussion unnecessary. Say no to popamole!
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