Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[Elerond]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

[Dronios]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

So it's not easy weapons. These are examples for the rare and unique weapons.

[Dream]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

 

But they look awesome. Metal armor isn't very functional when facing fire but I don't see you complaining about that.

[Elerond]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

 

But they look awesome. Metal armor isn't very functional when facing fire but I don't see you complaining about that.

 

They don't look awesome, they look more like toys in my eye. Metal armor works fine against bursts of fire, but against constant fire there is very we suits what one can wear that it will protect its wearer against continuously rising temperature. So against fireball steel armour is pretty good, but middle of inferno there is not really anything what one can wear so tha s/he can survive long period of time.

[Dronios]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

 

But they look awesome. Metal armor isn't very functional when facing fire but I don't see you complaining about that.

 

They don't look awesome, they look more like toys in my eye. Metal armor works fine against bursts of fire, but against constant fire there is very we suits what one can wear that it will protect its wearer against continuously rising temperature. So against fireball steel armour is pretty good, but middle of inferno there is not really anything what one can wear so tha s/he can survive long period of time.

What is the meaning of chasing the full realism in an unreal world ?

[Monte Carlo]

Hey, I think there's room for some crazy stuff too.

 

 

Always loved Elric...

 

And War Hammer fantasy battles FTW....

 

[Elerond]

 

 

Those aren't very functional weapon designs, they look more like ornaments than real weapons.

 

But they look awesome. Metal armor isn't very functional when facing fire but I don't see you complaining about that.

 

They don't look awesome, they look more like toys in my eye. Metal armor works fine against bursts of fire, but against constant fire there is very we suits what one can wear that it will protect its wearer against continuously rising temperature. So against fireball steel armour is pretty good, but middle of inferno there is not really anything what one can wear so tha s/he can survive long period of time.

 

 

What is the meaning of chasing the full realism in an unreal world ?

 

 

For me it makes world feel more believable. And it is not really realism what I am after, but functionality, so if get vote how weapons and armouts should be designed in game, my vote always goes for designs that look like they could work in our world, in other word armour should look like it purpose is to protect it's wearer and weapon should look like it's intended for battlefield and killing not to look pretty in showcase.

 

This of course don't mean that I can't enjoy games that don't follow my design ideology. For example I love Warhammer even though it has over sized weapons, some times very ridicilous looking armours, and mages that poses like they want arrow in their chest. But my love for fantasy orgins from Tolkien's, Eddings', Robin McKinley's and Ursula K. Le Guin (and other whose names I don't now recall) books, where warfare was descripted to be functional or there was reason why it was not.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Elerond

[Merlkir]

Karranthain, just ignore the troll.

 

Couldn't help myself

 

Back on topic, what do you think of this design? It could work for Glanfathan Elf Berserkers perhaps.

 

 

Just a question: Why is he wearing that one pauldron? Is it gonna do much good with him being naked and all?

 

http://janpospisil.blogspot.cz/2012/04/3-points-on-pauldrons-in-fantasy.html

 

(the single pauldron for "light classes" is one of my pet peeves in fantasy designs)

[Karranthain]

 

 

Just a question: Why is he wearing that one pauldron? Is it gonna do much good with him being naked and all?

 

http://janpospisil.b...in-fantasy.html

 

 

(the single pauldron for "light classes" is one of my pet peeves in fantasy designs)

 

Having a single pauldron makes sense if you're using a shield. In this case the pauldron isn't such a good idea since that character is dual wielding axes.

 

In any case, how do you like look of that piece?

[Merlkir]

It's a bit generic and doesn't make sense, but it's not horrible. :D

[Karranthain]

I mentioned plumed helms before :

 

 

Edited October 25, 2012 by Karranthain

[Dream]

 

 

What is the meaning of chasing the full realism in an unreal world ?

 

 

For me it makes world feel more believable. And it is not really realism what I am after, but functionality, so if get vote how weapons and armouts should be designed in game, my vote always goes for designs that look like they could work in our world, in other word armour should look like it purpose is to protect it's wearer and weapon should look like it's intended for battlefield and killing not to look pretty in showcase.

 

This of course don't mean that I can't enjoy games that don't follow my design ideology. For example I love Warhammer even though it has over sized weapons, some times very ridicilous looking armours, and mages that poses like they want arrow in their chest. But my love for fantasy orgins from Tolkien's, Eddings', Robin McKinley's and Ursula K. Le Guin (and other whose names I don't now recall) books, where warfare was descripted to be functional or there was reason why it was not.

 

If everything was made to be functional all the armor and weapons would look pretty much the same. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of Corollas and Lancers and Focuses (Foci?), but there should also be some Ferraris and Lambos.

[Jarmo]

 

Back on topic, what do you think of this design? It could work for Glanfathan Elf Berserkers perhaps.

 

 

I'm thinking if it was a female barbarian in the picture, even with an added strategic strap, there's still be a storm of feces hitting the admirer.

Other than that, there's no armor in the picture, just harmful shoulder ornament, but the axes are just fi... wait.. how is he holding the left hand axe?

[UncleBourbon]

Back on topic, what do you think of this design? It could work for Glanfathan Elf Berserkers perhaps.

 

 

I'm thinking if it was a female barbarian in the picture, even with an added strategic strap, there's still be a storm of feces hitting the admirer.

Other than that, there's no armor in the picture, just harmful shoulder ornament, but the axes are just fi... wait.. how is he holding the left hand axe?

 

Clearly he is a master of the rare axe back-hand

[Elerond]

 

 

What is the meaning of chasing the full realism in an unreal world ?

 

 

For me it makes world feel more believable. And it is not really realism what I am after, but functionality, so if get vote how weapons and armouts should be designed in game, my vote always goes for designs that look like they could work in our world, in other word armour should look like it purpose is to protect it's wearer and weapon should look like it's intended for battlefield and killing not to look pretty in showcase.

 

This of course don't mean that I can't enjoy games that don't follow my design ideology. For example I love Warhammer even though it has over sized weapons, some times very ridicilous looking armours, and mages that poses like they want arrow in their chest. But my love for fantasy orgins from Tolkien's, Eddings', Robin McKinley's and Ursula K. Le Guin (and other whose names I don't now recall) books, where warfare was descripted to be functional or there was reason why it was not.

 

If everything was made to be functional all the armor and weapons would look pretty much the same. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of Corollas and Lancers and Focuses (Foci?), but there should also be some Ferraris and Lambos.

 

But every one of those fullfill basic functionalities what one ask from car (get from place a to place b, with higher speed than walking), even Ferraris and Lambos.

But base functionalities are not only functions what person seeks, some want cheapest thing that fullfill basic functionalities (cheapness is in this case a function which car much fullfill), others want car with large cargo capacity, or with low fuel consumption, or with powerfull engine and high max speed, or they want car to look nice, or have confortable insides, but at the end of the day nearly all people want car that fullfil basic functionalities of car plus those functionalities which in their opinion will make car more suitable for their need. One thing what I don't believe is that there is many who wants a car which look über cool but you need to push it from place a to place b if you want to move with it. This same logic goes for armours and weapons, they should be able to fullfill their basic functions first and then comes other functions like movability, looks, etc..

 

So here swords that you could say to be ferraris of the swords, without need to reduce their combat effectiness

 

And here same for full plate armour

[Karranthain]

Back on topic, what do you think of this design? It could work for Glanfathan Elf Berserkers perhaps.

 

 

I'm thinking if it was a female barbarian in the picture, even with an added strategic strap, there's still be a storm of feces hitting the admirer.

Other than that, there's no armor in the picture, just harmful shoulder ornament, but the axes are just fi... wait.. how is he holding the left hand axe?

 

Clearly he is a master of the rare axe back-hand

 

Long lost art it is...

 

[Agiel]

This topic and replaying Arcanum made me wonder: What if technology in this Tolkien world of elves and dwarves progressed to our age where precision guided munitions and C4ISR replaced maces and enchanted swords as the tools of war?

[Tamerlane]

Back on topic, what do you think of this design? It could work for Glanfathan Elf Berserkers perhaps.

 

 

I'm thinking if it was a female barbarian in the picture, even with an added strategic strap, there's still be a storm of feces hitting the admirer.

Other than that, there's no armor in the picture, just harmful shoulder ornament, but the axes are just fi... wait.. how is he holding the left hand axe?

 

Clearly he is a master of the rare axe back-hand

Maybe... he was pounding in nails with it earlier?

[Dream]

 

But every one of those fullfill basic functionalities what one ask from car (get from place a to place b, with higher speed than walking), even Ferraris and Lambos.

But base functionalities are not only functions what person seeks, some want cheapest thing that fullfill basic functionalities (cheapness is in this case a function which car much fullfill), others want car with large cargo capacity, or with low fuel consumption, or with powerfull engine and high max speed, or they want car to look nice, or have confortable insides, but at the end of the day nearly all people want car that fullfil basic functionalities of car plus those functionalities which in their opinion will make car more suitable for their need. One thing what I don't believe is that there is many who wants a car which look über cool but you need to push it from place a to place b if you want to move with it. This same logic goes for armours and weapons, they should be able to fullfill their basic functions first and then comes other functions like movability, looks, etc..

 

 

 

And every one of those ornamental weapons that Dronios linked also fulfill all the basic functions. Lambos have almost no redeeming qualities outside of looks (their mileage is awful, sitting in them is like being in a torture rack, and they get beaten by cars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 as much). Hell, the newest one (Aventador) doesn't even put it's power down well since the transmission is **** and the breaks are awful. Despite all that people still buy and use them 'cause they look awesome, and this is in the real world.

 

In a fantasy world where magic enchantments could offset a lot of the detriments of "ornamental" weapons and armor (who cares if a weapon is balanced like **** if it weighs nothing) it is even more likely that super expensive things would look amazing.

[Elerond]

But every one of those fullfill basic functionalities what one ask from car (get from place a to place b, with higher speed than walking), even Ferraris and Lambos.

But base functionalities are not only functions what person seeks, some want cheapest thing that fullfill basic functionalities (cheapness is in this case a function which car much fullfill), others want car with large cargo capacity, or with low fuel consumption, or with powerfull engine and high max speed, or they want car to look nice, or have confortable insides, but at the end of the day nearly all people want car that fullfil basic functionalities of car plus those functionalities which in their opinion will make car more suitable for their need. One thing what I don't believe is that there is many who wants a car which look über cool but you need to push it from place a to place b if you want to move with it. This same logic goes for armours and weapons, they should be able to fullfill their basic functions first and then comes other functions like movability, looks, etc..

 

 

 

And every one of those ornamental weapons that Dronios linked also fulfill all the basic functions. Lambos have almost no redeeming qualities outside of looks (their mileage is awful, sitting in them is like being in a torture rack, and they get beaten by cars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 as much). Hell, the newest one (Aventador) doesn't even put it's power down well since the transmission is **** and the breaks are awful. Despite all that people still buy and use them 'cause they look awesome, and this is in the real world.

 

In a fantasy world where magic enchantments could offset a lot of the detriments of "ornamental" weapons and armor (who cares if a weapon is balanced like **** if it weighs nothing) it is even more likely that super expensive things would look amazing.

 

No they don't. They have rain guard's that don't work as they should, they have ornamental structures in their blades that weaken them and make them broke more easilly. Hammer has too large head to be very useful or even useable. First of the blades has too long blade considering its grip. So they would be nearly as useful in fight as toys.

 

Speaking about Lambos, they have many redeeming qualities, like good reputation, imago bonus, and they are fast for example LP 570-4 Superleggera has max speed of 325 km/h (202 mph).

 

As in my example I don't think that dimonds on rain guard, or gold ornaments on armour give any bonus in combat, but nobles put them in their weapons because they looked cool, to show their status or monetary wealth and I am not against such coolness, but I am against coolness that in reality hinders weapon or armour main purpose and gamemechanics don't show that hindering. It would be like long-haul race game where lambos have same mileage as Honda CR-Z, because they are so cool looking.

[Karranthain]

But every one of those fullfill basic functionalities what one ask from car (get from place a to place b, with higher speed than walking), even Ferraris and Lambos.

But base functionalities are not only functions what person seeks, some want cheapest thing that fullfill basic functionalities (cheapness is in this case a function which car much fullfill), others want car with large cargo capacity, or with low fuel consumption, or with powerfull engine and high max speed, or they want car to look nice, or have confortable insides, but at the end of the day nearly all people want car that fullfil basic functionalities of car plus those functionalities which in their opinion will make car more suitable for their need. One thing what I don't believe is that there is many who wants a car which look über cool but you need to push it from place a to place b if you want to move with it. This same logic goes for armours and weapons, they should be able to fullfill their basic functions first and then comes other functions like movability, looks, etc..

 

 

 

And every one of those ornamental weapons that Dronios linked also fulfill all the basic functions. Lambos have almost no redeeming qualities outside of looks (their mileage is awful, sitting in them is like being in a torture rack, and they get beaten by cars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 as much). Hell, the newest one (Aventador) doesn't even put it's power down well since the transmission is **** and the breaks are awful. Despite all that people still buy and use them 'cause they look awesome, and this is in the real world.

 

In a fantasy world where magic enchantments could offset a lot of the detriments of "ornamental" weapons and armor (who cares if a weapon is balanced like **** if it weighs nothing) it is even more likely that super expensive things would look amazing.

 

No they don't. They have rain guard's that don't work as they should, they have ornamental structures in their blades that weaken them and make them broke more easilly. Hammer has too large head to be very useful or even useable. First of the blades has too long blade considering its grip. So they would be nearly as useful in fight as toys.

 

Speaking about Lambos, they have many redeeming qualities, like good reputation, imago bonus, and they are fast for example LP 570-4 Superleggera has max speed of 325 km/h (202 mph).

 

As in my example I don't think that dimonds on rain guard, or gold ornaments on armour give any bonus in combat, but nobles put them in their weapons because they looked cool, to show their status or monetary wealth and I am not against such coolness, but I am against coolness that in reality hinders weapon or armour main purpose and gamemechanics don't show that hindering. It would be like long-haul race game where lambos have same mileage as Honda CR-Z, because they are so cool looking.

 

I'd also like to add that some people actually prefer less flashy cars, if we'd use the same analogy

[Dream]

 

No they don't. They have rain guard's that don't work as they should, they have ornamental structures in their blades that weaken them and make them broke more easilly. Hammer has too large head to be very useful or even useable. First of the blades has too long blade considering its grip. So they would be nearly as useful in fight as toys.

 

Speaking about Lambos, they have many redeeming qualities, like good reputation, imago bonus, and they are fast for example LP 570-4 Superleggera has max speed of 325 km/h (202 mph).

 

As in my example I don't think that dimonds on rain guard, or gold ornaments on armour give any bonus in combat, but nobles put them in their weapons because they looked cool, to show their status or monetary wealth and I am not against such coolness, but I am against coolness that in reality hinders weapon or armour main purpose and gamemechanics don't show that hindering. It would be like long-haul race game where lambos have same mileage as Honda CR-Z, because they are so cool looking.

 

That Lambo costs more than twice as much as a GT-R and is worse in every performance category except for top speed (where it beats it by single digit numbers), and if you put under 10g into the GT-R it'll blow past that.

 

As for the things like weak points, hammer heads being too large, etc. those can all be explained away by simply saying "magic fixes it" since all the fancy top end gear is going to be magical in nature. How does Drizz't's scimitar give you better defense stats? How does the Flail of Ages even work; wouldn't 5 heads be way too cumbersome? What about Dak'kon's zerth blade; that thing is just bananas! All of this is explained by magic makes it work.

[Elerond]

No they don't. They have rain guard's that don't work as they should, they have ornamental structures in their blades that weaken them and make them broke more easilly. Hammer has too large head to be very useful or even useable. First of the blades has too long blade considering its grip. So they would be nearly as useful in fight as toys.

 

Speaking about Lambos, they have many redeeming qualities, like good reputation, imago bonus, and they are fast for example LP 570-4 Superleggera has max speed of 325 km/h (202 mph).

 

As in my example I don't think that dimonds on rain guard, or gold ornaments on armour give any bonus in combat, but nobles put them in their weapons because they looked cool, to show their status or monetary wealth and I am not against such coolness, but I am against coolness that in reality hinders weapon or armour main purpose and gamemechanics don't show that hindering. It would be like long-haul race game where lambos have same mileage as Honda CR-Z, because they are so cool looking.

 

As for the things like weak points, hammer heads being too large, etc. those can all be explained away by simply saying "magic fixes it" since all the fancy top end gear is going to be magical in nature. How does Drizz't's scimitar give you better defense stats? How does the Flail of Ages even work; wouldn't 5 heads be way too cumbersome? What about Dak'kon's zerth blade; that thing is just bananas! All of this is explained by magic makes it work.

 

Which is just lazy design. Magic is nice thing in fantasy worlds but rules what it follows should not change from one subject to another. Because without straight forward rules for this mystical force, it is very easy to end up with magical cannon that saves and changes whole university, but it is ok because it is magic.

 

So if you have mystical force called for example magic which gives people in your fantasy world ability create metal that is lighter and stronger than steel for example then designing weapons that uses this metal should use logical and practical design patterns to show how people would use such metal to make best possible weapons and armours. If people have ability harness this force to intresting looking runes that gives bearer of the weapon ability make light up in fire, or absorb all heat from their body, or call magic veil to protect wearer from blows, it should not have any effect how weapons and armours basic functions are designed, except if these runes need different designs and if it so then these weapons and armours should have weaker basic functionality than their better designed counterparts. But sadly it is usually so that magic some reason makes absurd design work better in every way than practical designs, and there is not even explanation why, except that it is "magic".

[Dream]

 

Which is just lazy design. Magic is nice thing in fantasy worlds but rules what it follows should not change from one subject to another. Because without straight forward rules for this mystical force, it is very easy to end up with magical cannon that saves and changes whole university, but it is ok because it is magic.

 

So if you have mystical force called for example magic which gives people in your fantasy world ability create metal that is lighter and stronger than steel for example then designing weapons that uses this metal should use logical and practical design patterns to show how people would use such metal to make best possible weapons and armours. If people have ability harness this force to intresting looking runes that gives bearer of the weapon ability make light up in fire, or absorb all heat from their body, or call magic veil to protect wearer from blows, it should not have any effect how weapons and armours basic functions are designed, except if these runes need different designs and if it so then these weapons and armours should have weaker basic functionality than their better designed counterparts. But sadly it is usually so that magic some reason makes absurd design work better in every way than practical designs, and there is not even explanation why, except that it is "magic".

 

So what, by your definition, wouldn't be lazy design? Having everything look exactly the same? Because that's what would happen if the designers went for functional realism. Going back to cars all we'd have would be a sea of Corollas and Lancers with the high end ones only being distinguished by their Nos decals (your diamonds and gold accents).

[Elerond]

Which is just lazy design. Magic is nice thing in fantasy worlds but rules what it follows should not change from one subject to another. Because without straight forward rules for this mystical force, it is very easy to end up with magical cannon that saves and changes whole university, but it is ok because it is magic.

 

So if you have mystical force called for example magic which gives people in your fantasy world ability create metal that is lighter and stronger than steel for example then designing weapons that uses this metal should use logical and practical design patterns to show how people would use such metal to make best possible weapons and armours. If people have ability harness this force to intresting looking runes that gives bearer of the weapon ability make light up in fire, or absorb all heat from their body, or call magic veil to protect wearer from blows, it should not have any effect how weapons and armours basic functions are designed, except if these runes need different designs and if it so then these weapons and armours should have weaker basic functionality than their better designed counterparts. But sadly it is usually so that magic some reason makes absurd design work better in every way than practical designs, and there is not even explanation why, except that it is "magic".

 

So what, by your definition, wouldn't be lazy design? Having everything look exactly the same? Because that's what would happen if the designers went for functional realism. Going back to cars all we'd have would be a sea of Corollas and Lancers with the high end ones only being distinguished by their Nos decals (your diamonds and gold accents).

 

You can do different looking things that are designed to function in their intended purpose. You only need to look how many different looking functional historical full plates or swords there are. If PE includes all of those designs they will have thousand different looking weapons and armours in the game.

 

And you can distinguish better versions of equipment from weaker ones by saying that they use better materials and visualaising them using decorations that don't nerf their purpose.

Here pile of rapiers that which all have more or less differing look.

 

 

 

 

Here group of broadswords

 

 

 

 

 

Here are several cavalry sabres

 

 

 

 

 

And for example also poleaxes can have several different looks

 

 

 

 

 

And nice picture which shows how sword design changed during middle ages.