Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[Dream]

 

Do you have trouble understanding text, or is that yet another strawman? Read 1) again and then the last sentence. It's not "compromise" that's retarded, it's mixing of reasonable stuff with impractical nonsense. If you can have both reasonable realistic practical design and acceptably over the top fantastical design, why taint it with spiky crap that doesn't make sense? Couldn't the fans of fantastical designs be satisfied without nonsense and spikes?

 

 

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all.

 

Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically."

[Merlkir]

Do you have trouble understanding text, or is that yet another strawman? Read 1) again and then the last sentence. It's not "compromise" that's retarded, it's mixing of reasonable stuff with impractical nonsense. If you can have both reasonable realistic practical design and acceptably over the top fantastical design, why taint it with spiky crap that doesn't make sense? Couldn't the fans of fantastical designs be satisfied without nonsense and spikes?

 

 

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all.

 

Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically."

 

well, I just don't think it's logical or necessary to include stuff like that. It depends on execution and context. I agree it can be done so that it doesn't raise eyebrows or blood pressure - Warhammer is a good example. Yes, there's stuff I could live without and which I think could've been done better. But hey, if the chaos mage has a magical shield, I guess she can wear that skull bikini.

Another one I can think of are the new Berserk films. While some of the armour they designed looks a bit odd next to the straight up historical ones, it all kind of fits.

 

The point the whole time was - you can do a walking buldozer armour, you can do sexy evil looking armour, and you can do them all in a way that's believable, without spikes that would go through your temple if you lifted your arms.

 

look at the guy at 3:36 - pretty much a human tank.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Merlkir

[Dream]

Do you have trouble understanding text, or is that yet another strawman? Read 1) again and then the last sentence. It's not "compromise" that's retarded, it's mixing of reasonable stuff with impractical nonsense. If you can have both reasonable realistic practical design and acceptably over the top fantastical design, why taint it with spiky crap that doesn't make sense? Couldn't the fans of fantastical designs be satisfied without nonsense and spikes?

 

 

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all.

 

Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically."

 

well, I just don't think it's logical or necessary to include stuff like that. It depends on execution and context. I agree it can be done so that it doesn't raise eyebrows or blood pressure - Warhammer is a good example. Yes, there's stuff I could live without and which I think could've been done better. But hey, if the chaos mage has a magical shield, I guess she can wear that skull bikini.

Another one I can think of are the new Berserk films. While some of the armour they designed looks a bit odd next to the straight up historical ones, it all kind of fits.

 

The point the whole time was - you can do a walking buldozer armour, you can do sexy evil looking armour, and you can do them all in a way that's believable, without spikes that would go through your temple if you lifted your arms.

 

 

Well apparently we've finally come to an agreement because I don't really want armor that'd impale you when you lift your arms either.

 

As for the logic and necessity behind it; people enjoy the stuff and this is a video game for people to have fun in.

[Karranthain]

Do you have trouble understanding text, or is that yet another strawman? Read 1) again and then the last sentence. It's not "compromise" that's retarded, it's mixing of reasonable stuff with impractical nonsense. If you can have both reasonable realistic practical design and acceptably over the top fantastical design, why taint it with spiky crap that doesn't make sense? Couldn't the fans of fantastical designs be satisfied without nonsense and spikes?

 

 

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all.

 

Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically."

 

Out of these examples, only Warhammer Fantasy qualifies, to be honest.

 

As for Planescape - that's the crux of the matter; coherence - Torment is consistent with its designs throughout the game. I can't say that Gothic Plate would've fit there. Conversely, I don't think having completely unbelievable designs in an otherwise down to earth setting work.

 

That said, I'm definitely not advocating complete realism - I enjoy fantasy designs as well, but only those do not obliterate suspenion of disbelief. That's, admittedly, harder to achieve - but it's perfectly possible. Here's an example.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karranthain

[Dream]

Out of these examples, only Warhammer Fantasy qualifies, to be honest.

 

As for Planescape - that's the crux of the matter; coherence - Torment is consistent with its designs throughout the game. I can't say that Gothic Plate would've fit there. Conversely, I don't think having completely unbelievable designs in an otherwise down to earth setting works.

 

That said, I'm definitely not advocating complete realism - I enjoy fantasy designs as well, but only those do not obliterate suspenion of disbelief. That's, admittedly, harder to achieve - but it's perfectly possible. Here's an example.

 

And why does only Warhammer qualify? Beside that if Warhammer does qualify then you admit it's possible to have both ludicrously over the top and functionally realistic armor in the same setting.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Karranthain]

Out of these examples, only Warhammer Fantasy qualifies, to be honest.

 

As for Planescape - that's the crux of the matter; coherence - Torment is consistent with its designs throughout the game. I can't say that Gothic Plate would've fit there. Conversely, I don't think having completely unbelievable designs in an otherwise down to earth setting works.

 

That said, I'm definitely not advocating complete realism - I enjoy fantasy designs as well, but only those do not obliterate suspenion of disbelief. That's, admittedly, harder to achieve - but it's perfectly possible. Here's an example.

 

And what does only Warhammer qualify? But beside that if Warhammer does qualify then you admit it's possible to have both ludicrously over the top and functionally realistic armor in the same setting.

 

Both Warcraft and Guild Wars are consistently non-realistic in their designs - i.e. coherent.

 

As for Warhammer - the designs are coherent among factions. Imperial and Bretonnian designs are decidely historically influenced, Elves and Dwarfs use a more fantasy style (but still rather subdued, as evidenced by the example I have posted) etc.

And notice that it's a Chaos Chosen in the first picture - which is basically a heavily mutated husk of a human inside a living armour.

[Jarmo]

 

 

Would that be close to what you had in mind?

 

Pretty much exactly at that.

Well maybe the adventurer could be a little more adventurish, but that'd definitely work and it'd be a wide variety anyway.

[Karranthain]

Would that be close to what you had in mind?

 

Pretty much exactly at that.

Well maybe the adventurer could be a little more adventurish, but that'd definitely work and it'd be a wide variety anyway.

 

How about that?

 

[Dream]

Both Warcraft and Guild Wars are consistently non-realistic in their designs - i.e. coherent.

 

As for Warhammer - the designs are coherent among factions. Imperial and Bretonnian designs are decidely historically influenced, Elves and Dwarfs use a more fantasy style (but still rather subdued, as evidenced by the example I have posted) etc.

And notice that it's a Chaos Chosen in the first picture - which is basically a heavily mutated husk of a human inside a living armour.

 

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional.

 

Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this.

 

Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly).

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Karranthain]

Both Warcraft and Guild Wars are consistently non-realistic in their designs - i.e. coherent.

 

As for Warhammer - the designs are coherent among factions. Imperial and Bretonnian designs are decidely historically influenced, Elves and Dwarfs use a more fantasy style (but still rather subdued, as evidenced by the example I have posted) etc.

And notice that it's a Chaos Chosen in the first picture - which is basically a heavily mutated husk of a human inside a living armour.

 

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional.

 

Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this.

 

Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly).

 

You misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that, out of your posted examples, only Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff". Warcraft and Guild Wars, at least in my opinion, don't really employ realistic designs.

 

Chaos Chosen are more monsters than humans (mutated and granted gifts from the dark gods). That's why they can actually use those hulking armours.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karranthain

[Agiel]

Warhammer has always been about juxtaposing the stuff that's "sensible" to the stuff that's totally out there.

 

For 40K, compare Kasrkins:

 

 

to Vostoryan Firstborns:

 

 

And the Catachan Jungle Fighters:

 

 

And don't get me started on Harlequins, who are by far and away the most lethal mortal warriors in the Warhammer fiction:

 

Edited October 26, 2012 by Agiel

[Dream]

Both Warcraft and Guild Wars are consistently non-realistic in their designs - i.e. coherent.

 

As for Warhammer - the designs are coherent among factions. Imperial and Bretonnian designs are decidely historically influenced, Elves and Dwarfs use a more fantasy style (but still rather subdued, as evidenced by the example I have posted) etc.

And notice that it's a Chaos Chosen in the first picture - which is basically a heavily mutated husk of a human inside a living armour.

 

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional.

 

Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this.

 

Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly).

 

You misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that, out of your posted examples, only Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff". Warcraft and Guild Wars, at least in my opinion, don't really employ realistic designs.

 

Chaos Chosen are more monsters than humans (mutated and granted gifts from the dark gods). That's why they can actually use those hulking armours.

 

I just linked a warcraft armor with a realistic design. Also pretty much everyone in the chaos army has ridiculous armor, whether they're chosen or not. If you look through the rest of that site the orcs, elves, and even empire have some pretty ludicrous and non-functional stuff (I mean, really?).

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[mokona]

I'm interested in realistic armor as long as we're talking just about any armor except for head-to-toe platemail.

 

Who knows, we might just learn something from gaming: http://5eworld.blogspot.com/2012/01/you-might-just-learn-something.html

 

Can heroes really crawl through caves, climb walls, and otherwise remain extremely mobile (even travel for days on foot) wearing most plate? Maybe but there is a lot of room for chain and chain mixed with limited use of plates. Given firearms, what about spaniards wearing a breastplate and helm but no other armor for arms & legs?

[Karranthain]

Both Warcraft and Guild Wars are consistently non-realistic in their designs - i.e. coherent.

 

As for Warhammer - the designs are coherent among factions. Imperial and Bretonnian designs are decidely historically influenced, Elves and Dwarfs use a more fantasy style (but still rather subdued, as evidenced by the example I have posted) etc.

And notice that it's a Chaos Chosen in the first picture - which is basically a heavily mutated husk of a human inside a living armour.

 

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional.

 

Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this.

 

Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly).

 

You misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that, out of your posted examples, only Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff". Warcraft and Guild Wars, at least in my opinion, don't really employ realistic designs.

 

Chaos Chosen are more monsters than humans (mutated and granted gifts from the dark gods). That's why they can actually use those hulking armours.

 

I just linked a warcraft armor with a realistic design. Also pretty much everyone in the chaos army has ridiculous armor, whether they're chosen or not. If you look through the rest of that site the orcs, elves, and even empire have some pretty ludicrous and non-functional stuff (I mean, really?).

 

Yeah, hence my remark that Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff".

 

As for Warcraft - that design is definitely more functional than what's usually found in that game, but calling it realistic would be a bit too much

[Karranthain]

I'm interested in realistic armor as long as we're talking just about any armor except for head-to-toe platemail.

 

Who knows, we might just learn something from gaming: http://5eworld.blogs...-something.html

 

Can heroes really crawl through caves, climb walls, and otherwise remain extremely mobile (even travel for days on foot) wearing most plate? Maybe but there is a lot of room for chain and chain mixed with limited use of plates. Given firearms, what about spaniards wearing a breastplate and helm but no other armor for arms & legs?

 

Wearing chain is actually more tiring, as the weight is distributed poorly - a good plate armour is much better in that respect. Ideally, you would travel in something lighter and equip plate before battle. In game terms, using heavier armours could perhaps mean slower stamina regeneration.

 

You might like this design :

 

[Dream]

 

Yeah, hence my remark that Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff".

 

As for Warcraft - that design is definitely more functional than what's usually found in that game, but calling it realistic would be a bit too much

 

So we're in agreement then that it's perfectly possible to have all three types of armor in a fantasy setting without compromising the aesthetics. And if that is the case why not include everything and make everyone happy.

[Karranthain]

Yeah, hence my remark that Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff".

 

As for Warcraft - that design is definitely more functional than what's usually found in that game, but calling it realistic would be a bit too much

 

So we're in agreement then that it's perfectly possible to have all three types of armor in a fantasy setting without compromising the aesthetics. And if that is the case why not include everything and make everyone happy.

 

As long the third category is sufficiently explained (in Warhammer's case : mutations and gifts from dark gods) and doesn't completely obliterate suspension of disbelief - than yes, we are (that said our opinions on what's completely over the top or isn't may differ on) . That said, I'd prefer it if various subgroups used coherent designs.

 

Here's an example :

 

To add my bit on the realistic, mundane vs fantastic, wild debate, I'd like to see 3 basic categories.

 

The weapons and equipment used by:

 

 

Military.

 

Down to earth, based on historic designs, not necessarily a direct copy but I wouldn't mind if it were.

Padded armor and other ungodly uncomfortable stuff at low end, pretty plain hauberks and stuff at the higher end.

This stuff also trickles down to common folks, brigands and the like.

 

 

Adventurers.

 

And some mercenaries, maybe some lords and such. Realistic, but more wild, brash and arrogant, more comfortable.

Leopard skins, embedded gems, embroideries, embossing, most magic items should fall into this category.

This is stuff to show off, brag about your wealth and uniqueness and gather attention. It's also the gear the adventurers

wear pretty much all the time, not just for the occasional campaign/battle or during guard duty, so comfort is important.

Protection and combat utility is also paramount, but there's surprise value in having something offbeat.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

The primary concern is the looks. You want to keep the orcs in line, maybe you just don't care if you show too much cleavage

since you have immunity to normal weapons anyway. The weapons can be quite a bit larger than normal, if you have the power of

ten men. Just go wild with the stuff. But newtonian physics should still apply, action-reaction and stuff. If you swing a weapon heavier

than yourself, you're swinged yourself by the counterforce. The leather corset might have magic enhancements, but if it doesn't cover

you it wont protect you either. These would end up in adventurer use through looting, might have value and use, but should have the

negative sides also.

 

Allow me to add accompanying images for your post.

 

Military.

 

Adventurers.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

Would that be close to what you had in mind?

 

In short, what I wouldn't like to see is an adventurer that looks like a Chaos Chosen. As long it adheres to an internal logic of the world, I'm fine with it. Are we in agreement?

Edited October 27, 2012 by Karranthain

[UncleBourbon]

Yeah, hence my remark that Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff".

 

As for Warcraft - that design is definitely more functional than what's usually found in that game, but calling it realistic would be a bit too much

 

So we're in agreement then that it's perfectly possible to have all three types of armor in a fantasy setting without compromising the aesthetics. And if that is the case why not include everything and make everyone happy.

 

As long the third category is sufficiently explained (in Warhammer case : mutations and gifts from dark gods) and doesn't completely obliterate suspension of disbelief - than yes, we are. That said, I'd prefer it if various subgroups used coherent designs.

 

Here's an example :

 

To add my bit on the realistic, mundane vs fantastic, wild debate, I'd like to see 3 basic categories.

 

The weapons and equipment used by:

 

 

Military.

 

Down to earth, based on historic designs, not necessarily a direct copy but I wouldn't mind if it were.

Padded armor and other ungodly uncomfortable stuff at low end, pretty plain hauberks and stuff at the higher end.

This stuff also trickles down to common folks, brigands and the like.

 

 

Adventurers.

 

And some mercenaries, maybe some lords and such. Realistic, but more wild, brash and arrogant, more comfortable.

Leopard skins, embedded gems, embroideries, embossing, most magic items should fall into this category.

This is stuff to show off, brag about your wealth and uniqueness and gather attention. It's also the gear the adventurers

wear pretty much all the time, not just for the occasional campaign/battle or during guard duty, so comfort is important.

Protection and combat utility is also paramount, but there's surprise value in having something offbeat.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

The primary concern is the looks. You want to keep the orcs in line, maybe you just don't care if you show too much cleavage

since you have immunity to normal weapons anyway. The weapons can be quite a bit larger than normal, if you have the power of

ten men. Just go wild with the stuff. But newtonian physics should still apply, action-reaction and stuff. If you swing a weapon heavier

than yourself, you're swinged yourself by the counterforce. The leather corset might have magic enhancements, but if it doesn't cover

you it wont protect you either. These would end up in adventurer use through looting, might have value and use, but should have the

negative sides also.

 

Allow me to add accompanying images for your post.

 

Military.

 

Adventurers.

 

Necromancers, demons, evil overlords, vampire enchantresses, angels and deva

 

Would that be close to what you had in mind?

 

In short, what I wouldn't like to see is an adventurer that looks like a Chaos Chosen. As long it adheres to an internal logic of the world, I'm fine with it. Are we in agreement?

 

Sounds great to me... But what if the "hero" is the champion of Khorne?

Edited October 27, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Karranthain]

Sounds great to me... But what if the "hero" is the champion of Khorne?

 

Chosen of Khorne are living weapons, basically. All their dialogue options would amount to :

 

1. Blood for the blood god!

2. Skulls for the Skull Throne!

3. Blood for the blood god?

4. Skulls for the Skull Throne?

 

[Karranthain]

Back on track, here's a combination I'd like to able to use in the game :

 

[Dream]

 

 

In short, what I wouldn't like to see is an adventurer that looks like a Chaos Chosen. As long it adheres to an internal logic of the world, I'm fine with it. Are we in agreement?

 

Yea; obviously your local blacksmith wont be busting out insane looking armor, but if at the bottom of some long forgotten dungeon is a Champion of Khorne, a lich king, or some other similarly super evil/corrupt human then why not get his digs.

[Nonek]

But obviously with such massive armour and ornate decorations your maneuverabilty would be severely hampered, with the massive shoulders pads you'd be unable to make overhead blows (or anything higher than your shoulder) because steel doesn't bend, your movement speed would be reduced to a crawl and arcs of vision massively reduced. Shields couldn't be lifted high enough to protect the head as well, with more spikey variants there'd be a chance of damaging yourself with every attack. So long as players are willing to be rendered virtually useless due to wearing such silly things then I can't see a problem either.

[Karranthain]

But obviously with such massive armour and ornate decorations your maneuverabilty would be severely hampered, with the massive shoulders pads you'd be unable to make overhead blows (or anything higher than your shoulder) because steel doesn't bend, your movement speed would be reduced to a crawl and arcs of vision massively reduced. Shields couldn't be lifted high enough to protect the head as well, with more spikey variants there'd be a chance of damaging yourself with every attack. So long as players are willing to be rendered virtually useless due to wearing such silly things then I can't see a problem either.

 

That's how I feel as well. Unless there's a supernatural (mutation, armour welded to the flesh, gift from a dark god etc.) explanation, I wouldn't like to see such designs usable by the player's party.

[TrashMan]

 

And don't get me started on Harlequins, who are by far and away the most lethal mortal warriors in the Warhammer fiction:

 

 

 

 

HERESY!!!!

 

There are no greater worrirs in the universe than the Emperors Angels of Death!

 

 

For such heresy you msut be purged!

[Tamerlane]

It... it looks like Meta Knight from Kirby got stuck in a comically giant suit of armour.