Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[Agiel]

This argument sort of reflects my views on Warhammer 40K:

 

Cadian Guardsmen and Space Marines wearing "sensible" flak jackets and power armour? Boooring.

 

Catachan Jungle Fighters with abs and pecs that give them the same armour saves as the above?

 

 

Space elf ninja clowns who make no distinction between dance and combat and wear form-fitting and highly visible garbs?

 

 

Sign. Me. Up.

[Dream]

You can do different looking things that are designed to function in their intended purpose. You only need to look how many different looking functional historical full plates or swords there are. If PE includes all of those designs they will have thousand different looking weapons and armours in the game.

 

And you can distinguish better versions of equipment from weaker ones by saying that they use better materials and visualaising them using decorations that don't nerf their purpose.

Here pile of rapiers that which all have more or less differing look.

 

 

 

 

Here group of broadswords

 

 

 

 

 

Here are several cavalry sabres

 

 

 

 

 

And for example also poleaxes can have several different looks

 

 

 

 

 

And nice picture which shows how sword design changed during middle ages.

 

 

 

 

 

None of those scream bad ass. When I pick up some an awesome new sword I want to think "Sweet, this looks sick!" not "Oh yay, another rapier; at least it has 1 more damage than the last one." On top of that you can barely tell the difference between these weapons as is, and when you account for how small the characters will be ingame all those weapons will look identical. Personally, I'd prefer to have my look change at some point between the tutorial and the final boss.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Exile2k4]

 

You can do different looking things that are designed to function in their intended purpose. You only need to look how many different looking functional historical full plates or swords there are. If PE includes all of those designs they will have thousand different looking weapons and armours in the game.

 

And you can distinguish better versions of equipment from weaker ones by saying that they use better materials and visualaising them using decorations that don't nerf their purpose.

Here pile of rapiers that which all have more or less differing look.

 

 

 

 

Here group of broadswords

 

 

 

 

 

Here are several cavalry sabres

 

 

 

 

 

And for example also poleaxes can have several different looks

 

 

 

 

 

And nice picture which shows how sword design changed during middle ages.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I'd like to see fairly 'realistic' weapons like this, broadly speaking. The only thing I'd worry about is if you picture these weapons in game, if the characters are around the size in the old IE games, I think all these weapons might end up looking virtually identical, even if the resolution's high.

 

Slightly separate point - while I'd like to see a fair degree of realism/functionality, I'd also like to see something that reflected the limited knowledge of the people in a pseudo-medieval world. I think sometimes we look at weapons and armour from a 21st century/scientific perspective of what "worked" best, and assume all the characters should be doing that, whereas people at the time wouldn't have had such wide access to information. Redundant and downright bad ideas in weapons and armour persisted for very long periods of time after they should in theory have died out, and a large number of people were poorly equipped from whatever they managed to scavenge together.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Exile2k4

[Jarmo]

Personally I'd like to see fairly 'realistic' weapons like this, broadly speaking. The only thing I'd worry about is if you picture these weapons in game, if the characters are around the size in the old IE games, I think all these weapons might end up looking virtually identical, even if the resolution's high.

 

 

Pretty much this yeah, but assuming things are done at even a slightly higher resolution than in ToEE, you can see pretty darn much detail from the tiny characters. Probably to the level of seeing if it's a greatsword or sweihander, but obviously not to the level of decorations. Those would be inventory only fun.

 

 

Slightly separate point - while I'd like to see a fair degree of realism/functionality, I'd also like to see something that reflected the limited knowledge of the people in a pseudo-medieval world. I think sometimes we look at weapons and armour from a 21st century/scientific perspective of what "worked" best, and assume all the characters should be doing that, whereas people at the time wouldn't have had such wide access to information.

 

This. Though in all fairness, it's not like revolvers have disappeared or that there'd be a consensus on which main battle tank or fighter plane is really best, or whether it's better to take along an AK-47 or M-16, or something more modern. Or if it's worth paying the premium for real kevlar or if the cheaper alternative is just as good. Or trusting the available information to be unbiased.

[TrashMan]

None of those scream bad ass. When I pick up some an awesome new sword I want to think "Sweet, this looks sick!" not "Oh yay, another rapier; at least it has 1 more damage than the last one." On top of that you can barely tell the difference between these weapons as is, and when you account for how small the characters will be ingame all those weapons will look identical. Personally, I'd prefer to have my look change at some point between the tutorial and the final boss.

 

That is your uninformed, ignorant oppinion.

Weapons are made to kill, not to make you "look cool".

 

Which, b.t.w. - they do, but you can't reconginze it.

 

Real weapons have great distinction ebtween them.

 

You want to push it to a redicolous degree.

You said it yourself - given how smal lthe characters will be on the screen, nothing short of humongous differences (to the point of not even looking like memer of a same weapons family) will be really visible.

And that doesnt' make weapons or you look cool, it makes you look like you escaped from a circus or an anime convention.

 

ToEE did it nicely enough. From a distance weapons from the same weapon family really will look similar - becasue it makes sense. That's what defines them as belonging to a weapon family in the first place.

[Dream]

 

That is your uninformed, ignorant oppinion.

Weapons are made to kill, not to make you "look cool".

 

 

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook.

[Merlkir]

That is your uninformed, ignorant oppinion.

Weapons are made to kill, not to make you "look cool".

 

 

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook.

 

Hells yeah. God forbid you'd actually be forced to learn about stuff, that'd kill you for sure. Let's just have some retarded fun with spikes and skulls all over! CODPIECES WITH SKULLS NAO!

[Agiel]

Can any of you take that "realism" thing a step further and pick up a game like Digital Combat Simulator: A-10C or Falcon 4.0 BMS?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIGzDMJ-ik

 

I get enough "as-real-as-it-gets" action ramp-starting an F-16C Block 52 for every sortie over Pyongyang in Falcon 4.0 and slicing guys up in War of the Roses, and honestly I find it difficult to get educational value out of a game with elves and dwarves in it, however mentally stimulating the combat and character editor is.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Agiel

[Nomine Vacans]

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook.

http://www.popcap.com/games/zuma/pc

Have your fun and please GTFO.

[Dream]

That is your uninformed, ignorant oppinion.

Weapons are made to kill, not to make you "look cool".

 

 

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook.

 

Hells yeah. God forbid you'd actually be forced to learn about stuff, that'd kill you for sure. Let's just have some retarded fun with spikes and skulls all over! CODPIECES WITH SKULLS NAO!

 

Seriously? This isn't reading rainbow; it's a video game. I went to college to learn stuff.

[Nomine Vacans]

Can any of you take that "realism" thing a step further and pick up a game like Digital Combat Simulator: A-10C or Falcon 4.0 BMS?

 

I get enough "as-real-as-it-gets" action ramp-starting an F-16C Block 52 for every sortie over Pyongyang in Falcon 4.0 and slicing guys up in War of the Roses, and honestly I find it difficult to get educational value out of a game with elves and dwarves in it, however mentally stimulating the combat and character editor is.

no, no lets just stick with freidistic "bad-ass-macho" fantasies. After all, we play games to escape reality and fact what we are nothing in real world, so why do we have to be reminded of this by "realistic" concepts? "Look at this weapon - it's looks badass, this mean I'm badass, right? Am I baddass, mommy?".

Pathetic.

Do you understand the difference between "medieval simulation" and design based on common sence and some real life analogues?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Comedian

[Nomine Vacans]

... I went to college to learn stuff.

And it seems like you failed...

Edited October 26, 2012 by Comedian

[Dream]

Can any of you take that "realism" thing a step further and pick up a game like Digital Combat Simulator: A-10C or Falcon 4.0 BMS?

 

I get enough "as-real-as-it-gets" action ramp-starting an F-16C Block 52 for every sortie over Pyongyang in Falcon 4.0 and slicing guys up in War of the Roses, and honestly I find it difficult to get educational value out of a game with elves and dwarves in it, however mentally stimulating the combat and character editor is.

no, no lets just stick with freidistic "bad-ass-macho" fantasies. After all, we play games to escape reality and fact what we are nothing in real world, so why do we have to be reminded of this by "realistic" concepts? "Look at this weapon - it's looks badass, this mean I'm badass, right? Am I baddass, mommy?".

Pathetic.

 

Well, actually, that pretty much is why people read/watch/play/whatever fantasy stories. They want to experience something outside the mundane, something extraordinary. If they wanted to experience something historically accurate they'd pick, oh I don't know, a historical fiction maybe. Fantasy stories are, by and large, an escapism.

 

Fantasy

 

"Fantasy films often have an element of magic, myth, wonder, escapism, and the extraordinary."

 

As a side note, you seem a bit mad bro; you okay?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Agiel]

Don't know if you've noticed, but Obsidian doesn't have a whole lot of reasons to abide by a design philosophy that matches the real world. In fact, their art department has had a history of giving that sort of thing the finger.

 

I mean, for god's sake, the baddest-ass of the badasses of the NCR in Fallout: New Vegas wore rodeo jeans with a longcoat, and for the Legionnaires old football shoulder pads somehow equates to kevlar body armour. And it doesn't take an engineering major to figure this out (hell, I majored in art and I figured this out), but a big robot that relies on a single wheel for locomotion is not the soundest chassis design for a weapons platform.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Agiel

[Merlkir]

Seriously? This isn't reading rainbow; it's a video game. I went to college to learn stuff.

 

You seem to push a false dichotomy between fun and realism/practical design. Which is just that, false. It is entirely possible to create cool looking stuff without it being ridiculously oversized and full of spikes. Similarly, "learning can be fun", which, sadly, you seem to have missed at college. Poor you, boohoo.

 

Why do you even play RPGs? They often require quite a bit of that annoying thinking and stuff. Why not something more "fun", like God of War?

 

Well, actually, that pretty much is why people read/watch/play/whatever fantasy stories. They want to experience something outside the mundane, something extraordinary. If they wanted to experience something historically accurate they'd pick, oh I don't know, a historical fiction maybe. Fantasy stories are, by and large, an escapism.

 

So, how do escapism and extraordinary experiences necessarily equal spikes and massive shoulderpads?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Merlkir

[-Zin-]

Meh, fancy artsy non-practical armors are fun.

 

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/113/7/f/conan_and_red_sonja_by_skeel76-d4xbyrw.jpg

http://fc07.devianta...YunaKingdom.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120110135139/finalfantasy2/de/images/4/48/Cloud_AC.jpg

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/uploads/monthly_01_2011/post-5715-12947290059661.jpg

 

I say go for those, BUT ALSO have realistic armors. If you got both, the over-the-top ones will stand out more. I'm not a fan of armors, though I am a fan of Great Swords. The thing is.. This is a fantasy game. It should look fun and interesting, and sometimes just break realistic rules completely. From a personal preference, I thought Dragon Age Origins had the suckiest visuals on armies that I had seen in a long time, and I couldn't really enjoy that game until my second play-through 3 years later with visual mods. So yeah.. Have both styles I think, but tone down the extreme armors/swords by a lot. Make them rare. If I had to wear the suggested armors from this thread, I'd puke. I suspect you guys would puke from my suggestions likewise. It's just that I find all the pictures here so seriously bland and not imaginative that I would probably regret my donation if the game stuck with such ordinary boring visuals.

 

So yep, that's my suggestion for a compromise on the armor discussion

Edited October 26, 2012 by -Zin-

[Dream]

So, how do escapism and extraordinary experiences necessarily equal spikes and massive shoulderpads?

 

'Cause they look cool and don't exist in the real world.

 

Additionally it's less spikes and massive shoulderpads and more the fact that having completely realistic and historically accurate armor is definitely not what fantasy is about.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Karranthain]

Seriously? This isn't reading rainbow; it's a video game. I went to college to learn stuff.

 

You seem to push a false dichotomy between fun and realism/practical design. Which is just that, false. It is entirely possible to create cool looking stuff without it being ridiculously oversized and full of spikes.

 

Indeed - and that false dichotomy is used quite frequently in this topic - i.e. Apparently it's either spiky armour with fiery skulls or a medieval life simulator; nothing in between.

 

Case in point, here's something that is influenced by historical designs but has a very visibile fantasy look :

 

[Merlkir]

So, how do escapism and extraordinary experiences necessarily equal spikes and massive shoulderpads?

 

'Cause they look cool and don't exist in the real world.

 

1) "cause they look cool" is subjective, many people would dispute this.

2) "don't exist in the real world" - neither do shoulder pads made of living radioactive jelly eels. Are those fun? I think they're quite retarded, as are spikes and massive shoulderpads.

 

Try this for an extraordinary experience - wear massive shoulder pads with 2 foot spikes and lift your arms. We'll all be happier if you do.

[Dream]

 

'Cause they look cool and don't exist in the real world.

 

1) "cause they look cool" is subjective, many people would dispute this.

 

 

Which is probably why everyone who wants fantastic armor and weapons is saying there should be everything in the game; both the mundane and the extraordinary. Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand what subjective means since you seem to want all the armor to look the way you want it to and damn what everyone else likes.

[Nomine Vacans]

As a side note, you seem a bit mad bro; you okay?

You didn't see me mad, bro

[Merlkir]

Which is probably why everyone who wants fantastic armor and weapons is saying there should be everything in the game; both the mundane and the extraordinary. Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand what subjective means since you seem to want all the armor to look the way you want it to and damn what everyone else likes.

 

Wow, another strawman. How unexpected.

[Nomine Vacans]

Which is probably why everyone who wants fantastic armor and weapons is saying there should be everything in the game; both the mundane and the extraordinary. Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand what subjective means since you seem to want all the armor to look the way you want it to and damn what everyone else likes.

It would be nice to have both retarded and normal looking sets and pieces of armor, but it would take twice work from artists and disigners.

And because of an obvious fact what developers' resources are limited...

[Dream]

Which is probably why everyone who wants fantastic armor and weapons is saying there should be everything in the game; both the mundane and the extraordinary. Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand what subjective means since you seem to want all the armor to look the way you want it to and damn what everyone else likes.

 

Wow, another strawman. How unexpected.

 

How is it a strawman? Practically every person who wants fantastic arms and armor has said the game should have both the realistic and the fantastic where as you and the others like you who don't like fantastic gear have stated it should not be in the game period. Maybe you should look up strawman as well while you're looking up subjective.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Dream

[Merlkir]

It IS a strawman, I never said ALL designs should be historical. (which is what you accuse me of)

 

1.) I'm not against designs which are fantastical. I'm against designs which are retarded. If it's magical, if it makes sense in the world of PE, fine. It has been stated a few times that we'd like some historical influence, practical thought behind the designs. Not exact copies of historical armour.

 

2.) You are against realistic/reasonably functional designs in general, you said so a few times, you find it bland and boring. You require huge shoulder pads and spikes, because they're "cool". No idea why you're suddenly grouping yourself with the people wanting both.

 

Anyway, wanting both reasonable and spiky/nonsensical designs is equally retarded.