Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat

[butterfly]

They haven't said that losing stamina would weaken you (except when it reaches zero). In fact i remember a remark by sawyer saying he thought it was too harsh (in the context of a comparison with darklands).

[Mrakvampire]

see

 

Guys, are you specifically trying to confuse people?

So, if I'm hit with a sword I will lose what stat and in what proportion?

As I understand now, it's kinda 80% / 20% (80% of damage go to Stamina, 20% go to HP). Ok, not shields like Halo/ME, it's Armor/Health like in CounterStrike.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Mrakvampire

[Captain Shrek]

Stamina is not shield resource, it don't protect you health in anyway.

 

Stamina is fast consumable combat resource which lose will weaken character combat performance right up nothing (character is unconscious), but character can aslo get stamina poinst back fast via abilities, spells and items.

Health is slowly consumable combat resource which lose will lead character's dead/maiming depending on difficulty level. Character can gain his/her/it health back only by resting.

 

I haven't thought through a lot of the details, but I was considering something similar to Darklands, where characters have both Endurance and Health. Most damage taken in combat would Endurance, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat. Damage to Health would be more serious and much harder to restore (probably only through consumables and/or rest). Having your Endurance lowered to 0 would knock the character out. Having your Health knocked to 0 would kill the character outright (though there may be some optional, lesser version of this effect for non-Expert players).

 

This is best interpreted (unless clarified) as heath (HP) shield.

[Captain Shrek]

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

[butterfly]

 

Guys, are you specifically trying to confuse people?

So, if I'm hit with a sword I will lose what stat and in what proportion?

As I understand now, it's kinda 80% / 20% (80% of damage go to Stamina, 20% go to HP). Ok, not shields like Halo/ME, it's Armor/Health like in CounterStrike.

 

What is the confusing part?

 

At the moment they are more giving general ideas, as oposed to completely worked out systems. So we can't tell you how it would work, neither can the devs. Talk to them in 6 months for specifics.

 

I don't actually know how things work in CounterStrike.

[butterfly]

This is best interpreted (unless clarified) as heath (HP) shield.

 

Do you lack basic reading comprehension? These quotes do not, in anyway, describe a shielding mechanism. You take damage to stamina, you take damage to health. INDEPENDENT of each other. Your stamina is NOT shielding your health. if your health is 1 and your stamina is 100, you're going to die with the next hit. In fact you're going to die no matter what you're stamina is because it doesn't matter.

[Captain Shrek]

This is best interpreted (unless clarified) as heath (HP) shield.

 

Do you lack basic reading comprehension? These quotes do not, in anyway, describe a shielding mechanism. You take damage to stamina, you take damage to health. INDEPENDENT of each other. Your stamina is NOT shielding your health. if your health is 1 and your stamina is 100, you're going to die with the next hit. In fact you're going to die no matter what you're stamina is because it doesn't matter.

 

Wow.

 

I am actually waiting for Josh to clarify this. But you seem pretty sure that this is not so. I must assume Josh has told you so personally!

[butterfly]

He already clarified it,you quoted the clarification. In which he didn't mention shielding or for that matter regenerating. He didn't exclude them but he didn't exclude a great many things.

 

[Captain Shrek]

He already clarified it,you quoted the clarification. In which he didn't mention shielding or for that matter regenerating. He didn't exclude them but he didn't exclude a great many things.

 

Really? Explain to me how this rules out shielding.

[Elerond]

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

 

http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1241994

 

 

From this example you can see that character takes damage to both of his resources. And number of stamina points don't change damage correlation between stamina and health damage. So one could determine that stamina don't work as any sort of shield against health damage.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Elerond

[Captain Shrek]

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

 

http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1241994

[Bonecrusher]

We've had tons of discussions about this, I think the "no regeneration at all" is the verdict (speculation) at this point. You only heal by spells (cure light wounds and friends), (health) potions and resting. I think that's that at least? Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

Apart from the "hardcore players" (I put it in quotation marks, because even if I am an old school gamer (playing games since 1988), I find extreme amount of conservatism very annoying) think,

I really like the different HP regeneration styles of current MMORPGs.

What I mean is:

- No regeneration during combat. -This will make heal spells and regeneration rings still useful.

- Little regeneration other times. -You are fully healed during resting, why shouldn't you during normal times also?

 

Out of combat regeneration seems a fun and still challenging system.

However if you use memory slot system for magic and not MP system, it could be unfair for spellcasters.

[teknoman2]

Think of it as you character never gets hit, and the stamina lost "when hurt by a sword" is the stamina used dodging the blow

 

Sorry this greatly breaks any kind of immersion and is just plain silly. Stamina lost during dodging the blow? So to dodge a blow from Hill Giant I spend 50 Stamina, and to dodge of of 5persecond attacks by mega-super-duelist (but he wields only rapier) I use 15 Stamina?

Gods, let this never never never happen in this game. Please send a direct message to Obsidian's heads to not use this kind of system.

its better to think stamina as the pain threshold of the character. hits taken will cause damage and pain. you cant repair the damage but with aspirins and magic you can increase your pain tolerance so you wont pass out

[teknoman2]

We've had tons of discussions about this, I think the "no regeneration at all" is the verdict (speculation) at this point. You only heal by spells (cure light wounds and friends), (health) potions and resting. I think that's that at least? Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

Apart from the "hardcore players" (I put it in quotation marks, because even if I am an old school gamer (playing games since 1988), I find extreme amount of conservatism very annoying) think,

I really like the different HP regeneration styles of current MMORPGs.

What I mean is:

- No regeneration during combat. -This will make heal spells and regeneration rings still useful.

- Little regeneration other times. -You are fully healed during resting, why shouldn't you during normal times also?

 

Out of combat regeneration seems a fun and still challenging system.

However if you use memory slot system for magic and not MP system, it could be unfair for spellcasters.

you cant heal while not resting for the same reason you are forced to stay in bed while in a hospital. moving around does not allow your wounds to close properly if at all

[ReyVagabond]

Think of it as you character never gets hit, and the stamina lost "when hurt by a sword" is the stamina used dodging the blow

 

Sorry this greatly breaks any kind of immersion and is just plain silly. Stamina lost during dodging the blow? So to dodge a blow from Hill Giant I spend 50 Stamina, and to dodge of of 5persecond attacks by mega-super-duelist (but he wields only rapier) I use 15 Stamina?

Gods, let this never never never happen in this game. Please send a direct message to Obsidian's heads to not use this kind of system.

Hey I don’t think it’s a bad system, the idea I was pitching for was a Stamina - Armor – HP and let me explain how I think it could work despite being counter intuitive or not.

 

For the example let’s use the Giant, the duelist and 5 commoners and a warrior, mage, rogue.

The basics of the system is you use Stamina for most actions in the game so fighting you will consume stamina to attack and defend depending on the defense and hit rating you will dodge/block or not. Now once you are not able to defend you will get hit and you armor will be damaged or health depending on the armor or weapon a giving blunt, pircing and slashing weapons different properties.

 

Let’s start with Giant in the system He attacks he has low hit rating so it’s most likely to be able to defend the attacks but as a giant because of his strength it consumes good amount of stamina dodge. If you don’t kill it quick you will be out of stamina and with no stamina you will not be able to defend and you will be hit. By a giant and because he is a strong giant he will do crushing damage and will most likely kill you quick.

 

A Duelist will have a better hit rating and you are able to defend most of the attacks but you get hit here and there always using the stamina for defending (trying to dodge). Most of the hits are landed on your armor and not many injuries. If you manage to beat him you had most of you stamina.

 

5 commoners will not have a high hit chance and will not consume too much stamina to defend but because the number of blows you are defending makes it so you run out of stamina some what quick, and once with no stamina they just hit you till you die.

 

Now with pc classes example. A warrior with ok stamina and big armor and shield will not have a big defense rating but his armor will take most of the damage, but a hi stamina pool means he can defend slow things like giants and commoners but has a hard time defending duelists, and for dose he relies in his armor to survive.

 

The Rogue has a high stamina and high defense rating so he will be able to dodge most attack from most people but if he gets his armor is low so once hit he will go down with out much trouble.

 

The wizard has low stamina and low defense rating so they will not last much if attacked directly but with buff spells they can increase their ratings or armor, etc. but once they run out of spells they are as good as dead.

 

So as you can see a system like this can work, it looks hard to implement, and of course the defending animation will be something not so complex like the dance of death of NWN. But the combat I'm thinking is short and sweet a couple of hits to the real HP and you are done!

 

Now with stamina for the primary factor to not restive real damage you can use different skills to replenish it and keep fighting like a warrior second wind , or a rogue magic lotus potion or a cleric spell.

 

But that’s just me.

[Bonecrusher]

It depends on what kind of game you are playing. Most hack and slash games are directed towards.. guess what.. hack and slash.

 

Indeed, and PE is no hack and slash. So how am I completely wrong?

Because you don't know if it is hack and slash or not.

 

Especially with regenerating spammable (low level?) spells and regenerating stamina and no rest - "spamming" to boot, it has all the features of a hack and slash like DA2.

 

 

hahhahaha, you are joking, right?

 

and the joke is: calling PE's spammable low level spells (similar to Pathfinder's change over old D&D rules) as hack&slash system, although many famous tabletop settings have no-cost-low-level-magics for higher characters.

[Captain Shrek]

 

hahhahaha, you are joking, right?

 

and the joke is: calling PE's spammable low level spells (similar to Pathfinder's change over old D&D rules) as hack&slash system, although many famous tabletop settings have no-cost-low-level-magics for higher characters.

 

Hi.

 

Can you tell me what do you think Hack and Slash means?

[Grand_Commander13]

Sorry this greatly breaks any kind of immersion and is just plain silly. Stamina lost during dodging the blow? So to dodge a blow from Hill Giant I spend 50 Stamina, and to dodge of of 5persecond attacks by mega-super-duelist (but he wields only rapier) I use 15 Stamina?

Gods, let this never never never happen in this game. Please send a direct message to Obsidian's heads to not use this kind of system.

So this breaks your immersion but your character shrugging off multiple stab wounds without any decrease in performance doesn't?

[light487]

Take Stamina out of the equation completely for a moment.

 

So in the example Josh posted you had around 25 Health (and 30 Stamina.. whatever.. doesn't matter).. Some guy attacks you with a dagger.. the first hit took 4 HP from you (and some other amount of Stamina bringing you to 8 Stamina.. but again.. whatever.. not important as Stamina is NOT health). You are still Alive because you have 21 HP left.. then the second hit deals a further 2 HP.. now you're STILL alive but have 19 HP left. This health (HP) does NOT regen.. not inside of combat, nor outside of combat (unless you rest, apply first aid etc).

 

If you were hit for 15 HP, with a more powerful weapon, and then the second hit was for 10 HP, you'd be dead.. plain and simple (maimed in the easy difficulty setting). There's no ressurection in this game. There's no "Stamina Shield".. this no artificial HP or anything like that at all.

 

Now Stamina.. think of it not as a factor directly tied to HP but instead think of it more as Action Points (like in the Fallout games).. AP allow you to take actions in a combat situation. If your AP is too low, you can not take certain actions.. when it falls to 0, you pass out. That's what the Stamina is. When you take damage, things happen beyond simply losing HP.. you might even get poisoned, for example. In the system described, when you take damage HP is deducted, Actions Points (Stamina) are deducted, if they were to put in armor and weapon degradation then perhaps some points would be removed from the armor's durability.

 

So you have TWO SEPARATE stats that relate to Vitality.. Vitality is NOT health.. Vitality is a combination of a variety of statuses of which Stamina and Health are two.. but they are separate. As per the example, if you start with 30 stamina and the first blow reduces your stamina to 8.. you might not be able to attack because your only attack might require 10 stamina (or Action Points) to take that action.

 

Reducing everything back to a single stat, HP, removes this level of detail to the character's vitality feedback... so we need things like Stamina (or Action Points) to show that the character is not only alive but is also not so weak, stunned, tired to take actions.

 

Now, no one has said that the maximum Stamina is tied into the amount of health you have.. no one official has said that.. but I would think that if you had a big gash across the right side of your abdomen, you would have a little less Stamina than you did before.. if you had a broken leg, you'd not be able to endure as much as if you didn't have a broken leg. You'd still be alive.. you might have a decent level of health, no sickness, no infection from the wounds and so on.. but you're certainly not going to be able to take as much action, for as long as the next person who doesn't have a broken leg. Maybe it doesn't reduce the max stamina.. maybe it increases the amount of stamina you use or get taken away when you are hit... Stamina is not directly tied to health but then nothing is completely unaffected by the other things around it.

 

Stop trying to limit this game with limited thinking and embrace the new ways this game could bring an even greater level of detail than ever before.

[Captain Shrek]

 

Stop trying to limit this game with limited thinking and embrace the new ways this game could bring an even greater level of detail than ever before.

 

That is a nice mission statement for a corporation.

 

But as has been discussed earlier in this thread, there are more problems with continuously regenerating stamina than simply being a health shield (Assuming it is; but we will have to wait for that to be explained).

 

Still, for a second let us assume stamina is not health shield.

 

FACTS:

 

It has been mentioned that stamina will be lost during combat when you are hit and so will be health and that, there will be no rest spamming.

 

Case 1: So suppose your Health affects max stamina as you suggest:

 

The first implication of that is you will be at a suboptimal combat level before next encounter. There will be NO way to get to optimal without consumables (potions?/Kits?/food?) or rest. Now tell me how this situation is NOT exactly analogous to IE games where you had used up spells for mages and depleted health for other chars? These are the same reasons to which the entire anti-rest-spamming argument still apply. You will still do rest spamming if allowed under these assumptions if you are so inclined. Essentially the new system is simply a stand in for the old system except it has a stamina regeneration and cooldowns to spam your best attack per encounter unlike the tactical combat in IE games where you had to plan beforehand on how to use your resources. Not to mention with the regenerating resource of stamina if there are abilities related to that, you will also spam those based on the stamina "cooldown".

 

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

 

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

 

The problem as I see it, is that this system purportedly is designed to avoid rest-spamming, which in fact is an artificial issue (As in it does not really exist) and can be easily averted by good encounter design. The new system turns the game into spam-fest no matter how you cut it, simply because you are almost certainly using your best attacks per encounter even if at lowered potential (case 1).

 

This is exactly against IE game spirit (except Escape from planet tournament) where the planning required to actually see through the game was the charm of it's combat mechanics. It had faults, no doubt. But nothing so severe as to merit overhaul except for probably in the high magic setting (which is probably still in PE, we can't tell right now).

[light487]

"if allowed"

 

Indeed... IF ALLOWED.

 

We're all making assumptions here based on a quick and simple explanation of a design idea that hasn't even been fully fleshed out by the designers yet. There are so many other variables other than health and stamina.

 

At the end of the day, I'm not too concerned which way they go because I have faith it will be a fun game regardless

[Grand_Commander13]

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

 

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

When was it said that Stamina would determine attack strength? Or do anything other than allow encounters to be individually hard without forcing rest spamming?

[Captain Shrek]

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

 

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

When was it said that Stamina would determine attack strength? Or do anything other than allow encounters to be individually hard without forcing rest spamming?

 

Can you guess why that is being called Case 2?

Edited October 17, 2012 by Captain Shrek

[Captain Shrek]

"if allowed"

 

Indeed... IF ALLOWED.

 

We're all making assumptions here based on a quick and simple explanation of a design idea that hasn't even been fully fleshed out by the designers yet. There are so many other variables other than health and stamina.

 

At the end of the day, I'm not too concerned which way they go because I have faith it will be a fun game regardless

 

18 months + 13 level dungeon + 2 big cities + 11 races + new setting + new ruleset + obsidian's track record for amazingly balanced games = > No worries, everything will be okay, honey and rainbows, move along.

 

Yeah sure.

[light487]

The way I imagine it might go in terms of gameplay is something like this:

 

Quest: Deliver Urgent Message (yes, we all love these quests, don't we?)

Rewards:

- 500 General XP

- 1000 Gold

- Uber Sword

 

Time Limit: 2 days

 

The time limit is very important because it means that you might only be able to rest ONCE.. or twice if you are extremely lucky.

 

You set out with your band of merry (or not so merry) adventurers.. and along the way you encounter some definitely not to merry monsters. You fight and some of the characters are wounded.. they're not dead.. but they're injured/wounded. Based on the severity of their wounds you decide you will continue and try to get closer to the destination. On you go and then again you are forced into combat.. your party gets further injured. Now things are looking pretty bleak.. Olaf is dragging his axe because his left arm is broken and so on.. so you opt to rest, do some first aid and so on. This wastes the precious little time you have left.. but you're already just over half way to the destination.

 

On you go after resting, though some of the major wounds are not yet healed completely yet and Olaf arm is still very sore. You continue on in this way and have another couple of fights.. the last of which a party member is knocked out. Eventually you get to the destination and deliver the message in time and get your rewards.. but there was a serious possibility that any one of your party might have been killed and so on. There should be a real sense of tension and dread as you balance the time to get there vs the vitality of the party.

 

I'd hope that my party is in need of rest.. in need of a bit of relaxation.. a few rounds at the local inn and other less honorable activities.. and through that R&R.. they become better bonded with each other, their wounds heal properly and become stronger and/or more resilient as a result.

 

Stamina is just action points.. not health.

Edited October 17, 2012 by light487