Update #17: Brian Fargo from inXile Kicks In, Obsidian Kicks it Forward, New $165 Tier, and Expansion

[anexanhume]

Just registered to post here

 

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but I'd love for the first expansion to be a stand-alone add-on a la "season pass" type DLC passes you see on games today.

[Sugarjaye]

Hell yeah an actual expansion pack. Also, the concept pic of Aloth is awesome. Though I can't really tell if he is Handsome or creppy looking..... or both.

[Dawn_]

Collector boxes and the additonal stuff that comes with it cost money. Also digital tiers cost money. GOG and Steam take a cut as well. It's not as simple as X costs this, Y costs this, then why not make Z costs this.

 

Well, hiro, i am just trying to put myself in other shoes. personally i am quite enjoyed by this tier lol (i didn't have wasteland 2 + no shipping (and wait) + Expansion).

I couldn't be more happy ^^

[Madzookeeper]

LARGE TEXT TO GET EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BECAUSE I'M YELLING ABOUT NOTHING!!!1!1!!!!!!

 

 

Now that I have your attention...

 

the update was updated. they added that the expansion will in no way use any funds from the kickstarter. at all.

 

feargus even went on to say in the comments section that they were going to be funding it themselves.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Madzookeeper

[Merin]

If nothing else, it's at the wrong tier entirely.

 

Putting it right above the $140 is bad. It is an easy jump from $140 to $165, but those two tiers are completely separate animals.

 

It goes from $110 to $165 to give you the expansion for the digital only tier. Fair enough price increase - we are donating, after all, not buying.

 

But for the physical copy people? You have to either give up your physical copies or jump from $140 to $250.

 

It's bad tier management. There should be an, oh, $195-$200 tier to add the expansion to the $140 tier. Same jump, roughly, as the digital tier. AND THEN those in the $200 tier will eye the $250 tier and think "well, maybe."

 

 

Look, I've been very praising of their campaign to this point, defended it against many naysayers (all but got chased off of RPGWatch), but I think this was a misstep.

 

 

(and this is ignoring the Wasteland 2 bonus, which is just icing or sprinkles on top - it's a nice add-on, not an issue of contention here.)

Edited October 8, 2012 by Merin

[Bloody Hypocrite]

I agree that it would be nice to have a physical tier between $140 and $250.

[Cantousent]

It seems to me that the update was quite successful in terms of backers and pledges. I haven't been following the Kickstarter page as often lately, but today looks pretty good to me. I could be wrong, so if there's a way to know for sure it would be great if someone would link it or whatever.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If nothing else, it's at the wrong tier entirely.

 

Putting it right above the $140 is bad. It is an easy jump from $140 to $165, but those two tiers are completely separate animals.

 

It goes from $110 to $165 to give you the expansion for the digital only tier. Fair enough price increase - we are donating, after all, not buying.

 

But for the physical copy people? You have to either give up your physical copies or jump from $140 to $250.

 

It's bad tier management. There should be an, oh, $195-$200 tier to add the expansion to the $140 tier. Same jump, roughly, as the digital tier. AND THEN those in the $200 tier will eye the $250 tier and think "well, maybe."

 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

Digital to Digital tier upgrades and physical copy to physical copy upgrades have different costs associated to them.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Madzookeeper]

It seems to me that the update was quite successful in terms of backers and pledges. I haven't been following the Kickstarter page as often lately, but today looks pretty good to me. I could be wrong, so if there's a way to know for sure it would be great if someone would link it or whatever.

 

take a peak at this: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/#chart-daily

 

yea, it's been a good day.

[Bootsy81]

It seems to me that the update was quite successful in terms of backers and pledges. I haven't been following the Kickstarter page as often lately, but today looks pretty good to me. I could be wrong, so if there's a way to know for sure it would be great if someone would link it or whatever.

 

Ask and ye shall receive:

 

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/#chart-daily

[anek]

yea, it's been a good day.

 

And the day is not over yet...

[Merin]

If nothing else, it's at the wrong tier entirely.

 

Putting it right above the $140 is bad. It is an easy jump from $140 to $165, but those two tiers are completely separate animals.

 

It goes from $110 to $165 to give you the expansion for the digital only tier. Fair enough price increase - we are donating, after all, not buying.

 

But for the physical copy people? You have to either give up your physical copies or jump from $140 to $250.

 

It's bad tier management. There should be an, oh, $195-$200 tier to add the expansion to the $140 tier. Same jump, roughly, as the digital tier. AND THEN those in the $200 tier will eye the $250 tier and think "well, maybe."

 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

Digital to Digital tier upgrades and physical copy to physical copy upgrades have different costs associated to them.

 

Not really.

 

I'm looking at three things -

 

1. Reward tier placement. I contend that placing those rewards at the $165 amount was not the best decision, all things considered (the tier right below it, $140, being physical, and the $165 being digital, exactly.) You add reward tiers to entice people to pay a bit more - $110 to $165 has a tier between it, and the difference between digital and physical causes some dissonance anyway with trying to gauge how much you are going to donate...

2. Seemingly inconsistent distance between physical and digital tiers. At first glance there seems an inequality between getting the expansion and Wasteland 2 for digital at $50 more, but needing to spend (so it looks) an extra $110. Yes, the $250 tier has a bunch of other stuff - so it's price isn't the issue. It's the fact that, to get the expansion, you have to dish out $110 more or give up the physical tier.

3. Adding a tier for only digital buyers for new goodies that the physical item buyers would want as well is going to cause some friction with the people who want the boxed copy but also want those other items. Look at the "physical tiers" - there are digital items in them. The "digital only" tiers are for the people who don't want to pay extra for the physical items (don't care about the props) and/or don't want to pay the shipping for their game copy. Adding a digital item to the digital only tier, specifically game copies or expansions, without giving a similar addition to the physical tier with a similar raise is not good planning.

 

It is absolutely not apples (digital) and oranges (physical.)

 

The main item of contention - the expansion - is added to the digital tier by adding $50. The physical tier should also be able to get the expansion for a $50 increase - it's not costing them anymore for the digital expansion for the physical or digital tiers.

 

It is apples (digital expansion) and apples (digital expansion.)

Edited October 9, 2012 by Merin

[Krios]

Two games for the price of one plus an expansion pack, I love this update! It is also awesome to know Obsidian will support other kickstarters, encourages more indie game makers to come out and bring different things to the table. Not sure how much of the live stream I will be able to catch but hopefully I will not see a 'We are sleeping' sign at the time Let's celebrate our success in giving Project Eternity a great start!

[hideo kuze]

Several comments on kickstarter are bringing up the issue of this expansion being day one DLC held for high ransom and I gotta agree......this move is a bit too greedy and inaccessible.

Well, those comments are not very bright, are they?

I would even dare to guess that people saying that never played an "old school" expansion.

And anyone will be able to buy the XP when it comes out, so there is no ransom.

 

What we are also doing is adding the first expansion pack for the game to the $165 Tier (and above). The expansion will come out approximately six months after Project Eternity is released and is not being funded by this Kickstarter. That’s right, it’s not DLC, but a real honest to God RPG expansion pack.

 

Also, my thread on Stretch Goals, check 'em... And what do backers see as the #1 most wished for feature?

Larger world and more content (locations, factions, NPCs, quests, items) (159 votes [35.49%]

 

I'm guessing the reason they're not saying "larger world" is twofold: they have already been saying/doing that, and Obsidian may want to explore a slightly different setting in their new world.

Imagine that you get to explore another continent, one that is more advanced technologically, where the people have mastered the power of steam... ARCANUM 2!

Edited October 9, 2012 by hideo kuze

[Archon]

Think less as a pre-order and more as an incentive to donate more to have a better base game made.

 

 

Indeed. That's exactly what it is : incentive.

 

Add-ons are great incentives IMO. They "push" backers to pledge more if higher reward tiers doesn't interest them enough.

• +$25 for an Early Access Beta Key without having to choose one of the $110+ tiers. More funds, no loss.
  
• +$7 for a Digital Strategy Guide without having to choose one of the $80+ tiers. More funds, limited loss. Assuming this strategy guide will be produced with Prima games, the regular price is usually higher than $7.
  
• +$60 for Three Digital Downloads. More funds, limited loss. That's $15 cheaper than 3*regular price ( = 3*early-birds actually ).
  

More funds for PE is the main goal before Wednesday Oct 17, 3:00am CEST if I correctly understand the way this Kickstarter works ( otherwise I should step back and wait for release :D ).

 

The loss ( actually "loss in income" ) generated by add-ons now have to be taken into account for future developments of the Eternity IP ( or whatever they'll name it ). Ok, I get that.

But what I don't understand is why an Expansion pack add-on should be so different from other add-ons.

• +$XX for an Expansion pack without having to choose one of the $165+ tiers. More funds, limited loss.
  

Even if PE ends with 90,000 backers ( it could ) and if half the total backers choose the Expansion pack ( that's unlikely but let's pretend ) that's a [45,000*Expansion pack price] loss in income 6 months after PE release.

The loss should be covered if [XXX,XXX sales*Expansion pack price] > [Production costs + [45,000*Expansion pack price] + Distribution costs]

 

So, if PE sales are sufficient to fund an Expansion pack why those Expansion pack sales should be unsufficient to cover the Add-on loss ?

 

Yeah, that's a lot of IF ( and headaches ) and I should have resume this with "More funds = better game = higher sales = more income".

Edited October 9, 2012 by Archon

[Gorth]

The problem with selling the expansion at a low price in the kickstarter is the kickstarter funds are going towards the main game. This is the accounting that has me worried. The expansion is probably depending on post-kickstarter sales to even get funded. Kickstarter pledges don't go to it.

This. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to start development while the base game is "wrapping up" and you can get the same artists, writers, coders etc. to work on the expansion to ensure that it feels coherent with the base game, including placing whatever hooks needs to be in the base game.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Not really.

 

I'm looking at three things -

 

1. Reward tier placement. I contend that placing those rewards at the $165 amount was not the best decision, all things considered (the tier right below it, $140, being physical, and the $165 being digital, exactly.) You add reward tiers to entice people to pay a bit more - $110 to $165 has a tier between it, and the difference between digital and physical causes some dissonance anyway with trying to gauge how much you are going to donate...

2. Seemingly inconsistent distance between physical and digital tiers. At first glance there seems an inequality between getting the expansion and Wasteland 2 for digital at $50 more, but needing to spend (so it looks) an extra $110. Yes, the $250 tier has a bunch of other stuff - so it's price isn't the issue. It's the fact that, to get the expansion, you have to dish out $110 more or give up the physical tier.

3. Adding a tier for only digital buyers for new goodies that the physical item buyers would want as well is going to cause some friction with the people who want the boxed copy but also want those other items. Look at the "physical tiers" - there are digital items in them. The "digital only" tiers are for the people who don't want to pay extra for the physical items (don't care about the props) and/or don't want to pay the shipping for their game copy. Adding a digital item to the digital only tier, specifically game copies or expansions, without giving a similar addition to the physical tier with a similar raise is not good planning.

 

It is absolutely not apples (digital) and oranges (physical.)

 

The main item of contention - the expansion - is added to the digital tier by adding $50. The physical tier should also be able to get the expansion for a $50 increase - it's not costing them anymore for the digital expansion for the physical or digital tiers.

 

It is apples (digital expansion) and apples (digital expansion.)

 

No it's not.

 

1. You're still including a physical copy with your digital tier options. Two different things.

2. You're not paying $110 for the expansion to go from $140 to $250. You're getting extra physical stuff. Extra physical stuff costs money. You get the expansion for free at this level.

3. Again, physical and digitial. Physical items costs more money.

 

Apples and oranges. You need to compare digitial tiers to digital tiers to keep it in context. Not compare digitial to physical.

 

A better way to look at it is, buy the $140 collectors edition and then buy the expansion for say $20 (no idea what it's going to cost) when it's released. You're only paying $160.00. If you buy the $250 collectors edition, your main aim is to get all the physical stuff, not necessarily the expansion. It's cheaper to go with the $140 option than the $250 option. If you're going for the $250 option from the $140 tier purely for the expansion, then that sounds silly.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Cantousent]

Thanks guys! Yeah, it's been a good day of pledges. Best since Sept 27 or so by my reconning.

[anek]

Thanks guys! Yeah, it's been a good day of pledges. Best since Sept 27 or so by my reconning.

 

Better. (Kicktraq seems to update infrequently...)

[Merin]

No it's not.

 

 

1. You're still including a physical copy with your digital tier options. Two different things.

 

....

 

what?

 

 

2. You're not paying $110 for the expansion to go from $140 to $250. You're getting extra physical stuff. Extra physical stuff costs money. You get the expansion for free at this level.

 

repeating - "Yes, the $250 tier has a bunch of other stuff - so it's price isn't the issue. It's the fact that, to get the expansion, you have to dish out $110 more or give up the physical tier."

 

 

3. Again, physical and digitial. Physical items costs more money.

 

What are you on about?

 

In the $140 tier you get the digital fun pack, the digital strategy guide, the digital soundtrack, a pdf of the novella, the in-game items and, oh yeah, a digital copy of the game in addition to your physical items (like the map, t-shirt, collector's edition.)

 

Repeat after me - Digital-only reward tiers have no physical items, but physical item inclusion tiers also have digital items.

 

Okay?

 

You got it this time?

 

So, understanding that, try this part of what I said again before - "The main item of contention - the expansion - is added to the digital tier by adding $50. The physical tier should also be able to get the expansion for a $50 increase - it's not costing them anymore for the digital expansion for the physical or digital tiers."

 

Understand?

 

It costs no more to add the digital expansion to ANY tier, regardless of what else is in that tier.

 

Apples and oranges. You need to compare digitial tiers to digital tiers to keep it in context. Not compare digitial to physical.

 

Keep saying that. Being a broken record doesn't make it anymore right. If you think saying that disproves what I've been saying, then you don't understand what I've been saying.

[dscharrer]

Btw, were the $250 and $500 tiers reduced to only 1 digital download each? I thought they had 2 each, when I last looked.

 

But maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me...?

 

No, your're right, this is what the $500 tier looked like before the update.

 

Same for the $250 tier.

 

Looking at the actual text descriptions that x2 might have been there by mistake though. Shame, as that would have been the tipping point for me to upgrade my pledge to $250+$30.

 

It gets even more confusing as the physical reward tiers start with "previous reward tier +" even though for many of them the next-lower reward tier is now a digital one that includes two digital copies.

 

On that note, what will I lose if I give away the single digital copy from a physical reward tier besides convenience? Will patches be available for the boxed copy? Will the boxed copy support all three operating systems?

 

Edit: This can be verified by going to the google cache of the old kickstarter page, but only if the images are still in your browser's cache.

Edited October 9, 2012 by dscharrer

[Stoibs]

Traditional Expansion packs? Hell I loved the tradition expansion packs in the vein of what we got in the golden age of gaming back in the 90's as opposed to this dlc crap these days. There's no way in hell however going to increase my pledge by over $100 for one...the inclusion of the already backed wasteland 2 is absolutely zero incentive.

 

If this doesn't become a new reasonably priced tier and/or an "add on" like others are suggesting for +x pledged dollars (which I would gladly increase my pledge for) then I guess I'll just pick it up for the 20ish bucks I assume it will be come launch.

[Madzookeeper]

Btw, were the $250 and $500 tiers reduced to only 1 digital download each? I thought they had 2 each, when I last looked.

 

But maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me...?

 

No, your're right, this is what the $500 tier looked like before the update.

 

Same for the $250 tier.

 

Looking at the actual text descriptions that x2 might have been there by mistake though. Shame, as that would have been the tipping point for me to upgrade my pledge to $250+$30.

 

It gets even more confusing as the physical reward tiers start with "previous reward tier +" even though for many of them the next-lower reward tier is now a digital one that includes two digital copies.

 

On that note, what will I lose if I give away the single digital copy from a physical reward tier besides convenience? Will patches be available for the boxed copy? Will the boxed copy support all three operating systems?

 

Edit: This can be verified by going to the google cache of the old kickstarter page, but only if the images are still in your browser's cache.

 

i don't see why patches and such wouldn't be available for a physical copy of the game. why in the world would they change that? i'm also fairly sure the physical version will be usable on all of the operating systems, but there's no actual confirmation. i'll see about asking feargus next time i see him. about that and the change of not getting 2x digital copies at those tiers like you did before.

[anek]

i don't see why patches and such wouldn't be available for a physical copy of the game. why in the world would they change that?

 

Maybe not intentionally, but users of the Steam version will presumably get patches through the Steam client, and users of the GoG version from their GoG.com account page, so in order for users of the boxed version to get them, Obsidian would have to set up a PE download area on its own website or something.

 

So it's not about them arbitrarily excluding some users, it's something that would require them to spend additional work/money.

[Madzookeeper]

i don't see why patches and such wouldn't be available for a physical copy of the game. why in the world would they change that?

 

Maybe not intentionally, but users of the Steam version will presumably get patches through the Steam client, and users of the GoG version from their GoG.com account page, so in order for users of the boxed version to get them, Obsidian would have to set up a PE download area on its own website or something.

 

So it's not about them arbitrarily excluding some users, it's something that would require them to spend additional work/money.

 

or they could, you know, have an automatic updater or an updater that you can use like in NWN2. seems like that would make the most sense.