My fwiw kickstarter economic analysis regarding the rift between the traditionalists and evolutionists

[Grimlorn]

The Bioware/New Age crowd should be referred to as the devolutionists not evolutionists. You can't seriously believe RPGs have been evolving.

[NerdBoner]

 

 

Bioware made BG and BG2. Dave Gaider made some awesome BG2 mods in his own time. Their star will always shine bright for those achievements, but at the end of the day they followed the money. We don't have to like it.

I dont think i've ever even played Throne of Bhaal without the famous Ascension mod...

[MReed]

I agree, those are surprisingly specific generalizations. I don't know if I'm so unique that I break the mold or not, but I just don't think I'm that special. In particular, I think the whole thread, including MReed's generalizations, shows a certain fixation on Bioware. The OP introduces them as a faction and elevates their status in the first place.

Well, prior to P:E, they were the only company making party based, RTwP games. There were a couple of games from Europe in this mold (Drakensang: The Dark Eye and its sequel), but those were minor games in the US market at best. So, if you are talking about fans of this particular type of game then it is more or less impossible to keep Bioware's name out of the discussion.

 

Note that the reference to "View Bioware games favorably" wasn't intended as an insult or anything, and my apologies to anyone that was offended (in this thread, I suppose, it was inevitable I suppose). Obviously, lots of people do like Bioware's games and feel strongly that Bioware is moving in the correct direction -- otherwise, they wouldn't be as successful as they are. For that matter, I'm certainly not a Bioware hater myself -- I even enjoyed the story in DA2 (pause for gasps of horror). However, Bioware has moved the mechanics of their games in a direction that I don't like -- and they've moved far enough at this point that the mechanics prevent me from enjoying the story. I have a similar reaction to the Witcher games -- love the story, despise the mechanics.

 

In any case, I do NOT believe that someone who enjoys Bioware games can't also enjoy P:E, nor that they shouldn't have a voice in the development process. I do wish that they would be less vocal about their preferences sometimes...

 

I guess you could bring them up as regards the Infinity Engine, but most of the ire associated with Bioware on these boards regards later games. I'm not a Bioware hater or defender. I've bought far fewer Bioware games than a lot of the Bioware haters I see here. For example, although I found DA:O not so bad, I didn't buy any dlc or DA2.

Yeap, I bought just about everything on that list. FYI: ME1 is worth playing, even from my point of view. While it looks like a shooter, it plays much closer to a RPG than you would expect. ME2, on the other hand, is a shooter with strong story, and I never finished it (got it for free). Jade Empire is also surprisingly good (despite appearances) -- from a mechanics POV, Jade Empire is "ME:0.5".

 

In regards the other bullet points, I'm mixed between the two. I could technically afford to pledge more, but there has to be some sort of reason and I don't have a money tree in the back yard. On the other hand, I'm pledging as much as I can reasonably defend spending on the project and trying to think of other ways that I could pledge more. All of those increases are earmarked as gifts for friends and relatives so far, which kind of screws up the whole idea of how the two groups buy into the project, at least from my perspective.

 

Yes, this is the type of thinking that I had in mind when I wrote that bullet point -- specifically "...there has to be some sort of reason..." and "...earmarked as gifts for friends and relatives...". On the other hand, I've got a boxed game coming with lots of extras that I'll likely never open (if there is an easy way to do so, I'll decline to even have the boxed copy & extra sent to me), plus some absurd number of downloaded copies that I'll likely never give away or otherwise use. I donated based on "This is how much I can afford", not "What will I get if I donate this much".

 

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with donating because of the tier awards -- heck, based on the funding reactions when tier awards were changed (especially adding beta access at the $120 tier), it is obvious that most people are choosing their donation level based on the tier awards. This is not a bad thing. Heck, people are investing $10k because (I assume) they really want to meet the folks at Obsidian and more power to them -- whatever gets the game funded.

 

But... that's not true in my case, and I think that many of the people who fit in the "Interested primarily in features" bucket feel the same way.

[Gurkog]

I loved the IE games

thought ME had an extra helping of cheese in the storyline and the combat was mediocre at best

DA:O had all kinds of poorly structured choices and consequences, and combat

KotOR was OK, but clunky

NWN was a disappointment on all accounts

 

Ya... I didn't much care for Bioware after NWN, but Obsidian has kept my attention the whole time. Bioware makes teen fantasy while OE crafts adult stories. I backed PE because I know OE will provide a mature and satisfying story with at least decent combat.

[NerdBoner]

Ya... I didn't much care for Bioware after NWN, but Obsidian has kept my attention the whole time. Bioware makes teen fantasy while OE crafts adult stories. I backed PE because I know OE will provide a mature and satisfying story with at least decent combat.

let's give credit were it's due...everything about NWN was bad except the one thing that mattered: it's ability to allow hideous little nerds like us the ability to make custom content.

 

NWN gave us an age of glorious fan modules with stories, and sometimes even gameplay innovation, that beats the hell out of most RPG's since that era.

Edited October 5, 2012 by NerdBoner

[evdk]

 

I liked it aswell :3

 

You have a Tali avatar and are a known propagator of decline. You are beyond help.

[Piccolo]

I enjoyed the Mass Effect games as story-driven third person shooters, but hated Dragon Age (probably because those games were trying harder to be RPGs, and failed miserably in that regard. Also didn't care for that style of fantasy). KotOR was alright, but very overrated in my opinion.

 

Hated Skyrim, but liked Oblivion a lot once mods fixed the obvious flaws.

 

Enjoyed all of the IE games i've played, and want PE to remain true to that experience.

 

Love lots of older RPGs, particularly from the early 90s (such as Realms of Arkania, Betrayal at Krondor, Darklands).

 

-

 

I guess I fit a third group of people who can appreciate some newer "RPGs" for what they are, without wanting any of the modern "RPG" trends finding their way into Project Eternity at all. Project Eternity is supposed to offer a more traditional cRPG experience, and shouldn't go out of it's way to cater to newer RPG audiences at all. Fortunately, Obsidian seem to share the same opinion:

 

RipTen: Along those lines, there are a lot of younger gamers that might not have experienced those titles when they were new. Any thoughts on how to get them on board and excited? Is it something that is even being considered?

Chris Avellone: This is a compliment to the Kickstarter process and our target audience: We have expressly said what this game is and who the game is for. We could try to force it and sell it to players that wouldn’t naturally gravitate toward it, but that’s not our goal, and it was never part of the pitch in my mind to try and force them to care. We just want to make a great IE-style game for the backers who want it. If they like Obsidian games, there’ll be enough in Project: Eternity for Obsidian fans to enjoy, regardless of playstyle.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Piccolo

[Jaesun]

You have a Tali avatar and are a known propagator of decline. You are beyond help.

 

I still insist clergy of Myrkul is far more appropriate.

[Tale]

the online monitoring of gaming,

Hey, what's wrong with metrics? It's like science!

[Cantousent]

I don't know. I guess I understand that folks aren't huge Bioware fans. I'm not one myself, really. I approach most stuff on a game by game basis. ...But I will say that Obsidian got a couple of huge breaks from Bioware, and so I can't entirely hate them. I wasn't exactly a tremendous fan of the NWN franchise, but Obsidian got three releases that I can count out of NWN2. KotOR 2 was another break. I thought, although I'm not sure, that Bioware was helpful in getting those gigs for Obsidian.

 

I guess my point about Bioware is this: the things we hate about Bioware games, and I will concede that I tend to agree with the grognards about the specific things they hate, are things we'd hate if anyone else made them. It doesn't matter that Bioware had aspects of design philosophy that so many of us hate. What matters is that Obsidian doesn't buy into those philosophies. I've been, since day one of the kickstarter, one of those Obsidz fanboys who trusts in their judgment. Sometimes I haven't liked some specific new thing I've heard, particularly incidental XP gains, but I've always remained optimistic about the end product. For that reason, I suppose my tastes fall under the feature category, but my attitude falls under the game category.

[Merin]

*considers posting in thread*

 

*considers who started the thread*

 

*wants to add to conversation*

 

*doesn't want to engage with certain individuals...*

 

Uhm, I guess I'll just say I don't fit any of the "groupings" I've seen yet.

[evdk]

You have a Tali avatar and are a known propagator of decline. You are beyond help.

 

I still insist clergy of Myrkul is far more appropriate.

Myrkul's dead. Decline is still going strong.

[JediMB]

DA2 confirmed that Bio / EA was gone.

 

I'm still hoping that, given how word-of-mouth had the opposite effect for DA2 as it had for its predecessor, the third installment in the series is at least partially going to go back to how things were done in DAO.

 

I have very mixed feelings about DA2, but among the things that disturbed me the most were when the plot did its best to defy one's choices, the way the tactical combat mechanics were pretty much ruined by "reinforcements" and bad boss balancing, and just how very shallow the game's RPG mechanics had become. Not to mention that the game was clearly unfinished.

 

So, yeah, I'm hopeful, but my expectations for future BioWare games in general are way down low.

[Monte Carlo]

Dude, why give them the benefit of the doubt? They'll just pander to the fan-base and make it ****. It's EA, right?

[MReed]

For that reason, I suppose my tastes fall under the feature category, but my attitude falls under the game category.

 

Everyone has preferences when it comes to features (or just about anything else, for that matter). The difference between the two categories is "Are your preferences more accurately described as 'non-negotiable demands' or 'all else being equal, this is what I'd like'".

Edited October 5, 2012 by MReed

[MReed]

I'm still hoping that, given how word-of-mouth had the opposite effect for DA2 as it had for its predecessor, the third installment in the series is at least partially going to go back to how things were done in DAO.

 

I'm still watching the Bioware forums, but it is more than morbid curiosity at this point. I'm pretty certain that the lesson Bioware learned from DA2 mechanics is "We didn't go far enough in making this an action game -- we should use ME3 mechanics as the model for the next title." Given my experience from DA2, I'm pretty sure they won't admit this, but that's what I expect to see.

[JediMB]

Dude, why give them the benefit of the doubt? They'll just pander to the fan-base and make it ****. It's EA, right?

 

'Cause I can't make up my mind on if I'm supposed to be naïve or cynical.

[Uomoz]

I liked it aswell :3

 

You have a Tali avatar and are a known propagator of decline. You are beyond help.

 

Don't touch my Tali!

 

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, I'm in for every game that gives strong emotions (possibly with solid progression mechanics). I'm not used to nitpick on something at all, or at least until I have completed a playthrough. PST is the best game ever created (I loved its combat as well, go figure).

 

So I guess I'm grouped up with the 99% of non-Codexian fans of the genre.

[el pinko grande]

I'll cop to being a Biowarian. I've played all of the games mentioned in the KS video, and plenty of other old-school RPGs going back to SSI's Gold Box games. Despite that, my all time favorite CRPG is Dragon Age: Origins.

 

The funny thing about participating in this forum is that in most other contexts, I'm something of a grognard. Even though I think Dragon Age was largely a step forward in respect to the style of combat established in the IE games, I still don't think the companion AI is as good. I also really dislike the MMO-ification of combat. Not in terms of cooldowns- I think those are clearly better than Vancian magic, and most people on this forum are taking crazy pills- but in the way that crowd control and taunt-based tanking are required to succeed in combat. I feel like there was a lot more flexibility in how one could approach encounters in the IE games than in DA. Hell, 90% of the encounters I played in BG2 I did solo with my stalker ranger, just backstabbing everything and hiding again. Totally not possible in DA.

 

The thing is, however Obsidian chooses to handle the game mechanics, my contribution isn't going to change. I'm mostly here for the story. I like Obsidian's writing, and I want to see them tell the kind of story that goes along with high fantasy. I'll be annoyed if they go with turn-based combat and Vancian magic, but it just means I grit my teeth and deal with the combat and complain loudly in the forums in the hopes of them changing things for the second one.

[evdk]

 

Don't touch my Tali!

 

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, I'm in for every game that gives strong emotions (possibly with solid progression mechanics). I'm not used to nitpick on something at all, or at least until I have completed a playthrough. PST is the best game ever created (I loved its combat as well, go figure).

 

So I guess I'm grouped up with the 99% of non-Codexian fans of the genre.

 

I liked PST spells, which is as far as I am willing to take this.

[Uomoz]

Yeah, thinking about it, I guess spells were what made the combat cool. Haven't played that gem in a while so I can't really say.

[ddillon]

(@Shaz)

I will admit that you are a bit difficult to categorize, but your affection for DA:O I think clearly puts you in the Bioware faction even if you didn't care for DA2. That seems to be a quite common position actually and I think it may have something to do with all of the Biowarians who are helping with this kickstarter. While it is true that Biowarians who dislike the direction that Bioware seems to be headed in post DA:O are more disenfranchised than those who like that direction (I cannot even imagine how bad DA2 must be) it is still a step above the position of the Traditionalist in terms of being accomodated by modern games actually being published. If you liked DA:O then you don't have a major problem with modern game mechanics and that gives you a much wider selection of games to choose from. An Old Biowarian would of course be expected to show up for what could essentially be seen as the real sequel to BG2, but with quality writing.

 

Such as? Aside from KotOR (and possibly the first ME; I haven't played it), what other games form this imagined plethora of modern games suited to this group (those that like DA:O but hate DA2)? To be clear, we're talking about party-based, western CRPGs... Surely you don't imagine that all fans of DA:O are just as satisfied with MMORPGs, action-RPGs, and JRPGs (Blizzard, Bethesda, etc)?

 

I still don't know what direction Obsidian even wants to take the combat. A more next-gen, "evolved", modern sort of system with modern combat dynamics, or something quite close to BG2/IWD/PS:T.

Close to BG2/IWD.

 

Threat-based combat behavior or no? (I hope so.)

 

Bioware are pivotal, Cant.

 

I abandoned them after NeverWinter Nights, where I think they were disingenuous as to what the product was about. Then I was tempted back by DA:O, kind of liked some of it (the combat was better than anything else on the market at the time) and had high hopes that the franchise might develop.

 

Then I saw the romances, the diaper-sex, the online monitoring of gaming, the BSN, the hordes of pant-wetting Buffy fans... and left. DA2 confirmed that Bio / EA was gone. It's like a zombie movie when you see that one of your close friends has been taken by the contagion and is now wandering around, groaning with bodyparts falling off.

 

To be fair, online registration of DA:O and participation in the social network are optional. Online activation of the DLC is optional with a simple edit of one XML file (so simple that it seems to be a deliberate workaround for those who need or want it; this wouldn't be surprising given that online activation of the game was dropped due to popular fan request). Patches are available for unrestricted download (with the exception of the patch for Witch Hunt, but it can be acquired easily enough elsewhere). I just installed the Ultimate Edition, the storage chest semi-official mod, the promo items, and latest patches on an offline gaming machine. Fully functional, legally purchased, good to go without any online hassle.

 

The diaper sex is odd, but I guess that Bioware wanted animated sex scenes, censored the nudity to appease EA and the ESRB, and counted on modders to make a nudity patch.

 

But in regards to "hordes of pant-wetting Buffy fans", I are confuzed... ? Care to explain that one?

Edited October 6, 2012 by ddillon

[ogrezilla]

This thread is terrible. Wanting the flaws -- yes they had flaws -- from the old IE games to be improved upon does not make me the scourge of modern gaming.

Edited October 6, 2012 by ogrezilla

[GammaHamster]

 

I guess I fit a third group of people who can appreciate some newer "RPGs" for what they are, without wanting any of the modern "RPG" trends finding their way into Project Eternity at all. Project Eternity is supposed to offer a more traditional cRPG experience, and shouldn't go out of it's way to cater to newer RPG audiences at all.

 

You can safely consider yourself "traditionalist" with such attitude. Just because we are very vocal against many features of newer games doesn't mean we can't get any enjoyment from them. it's a common misconception, most of us have no problems playing modern games, we just cannot close our eyes to their flaws.

[ogrezilla]

I guess I fit a third group of people who can appreciate some newer "RPGs" for what they are, without wanting any of the modern "RPG" trends finding their way into Project Eternity at all. Project Eternity is supposed to offer a more traditional cRPG experience, and shouldn't go out of it's way to cater to newer RPG audiences at all.

 

You can safely consider yourself "traditionalist" with such attitude. Just because we are very vocal against many features of newer games doesn't mean we can't get any enjoyment from them. it's a common misconception, most of us have no problems playing modern games, we just cannot close our eyes to their flaws.

I'm not really aiming this at you, just building on that last point. There is definitely a group of traditionalists here that do seem to close their eyes to the flaws of the IE games.