The Monk Class

[ArchBeast]

Monks in any country would have to defend themselves from outside attackers. But fighting is not the way of the monk: spirituality is.

 

Yeah. They defended them sellfs by using knights an monlike-knight called crusaders

 

If you whant to try what is harder steel or your fist, DO IT and tell us how it work :D

Edited October 12, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Osvir]

More information on the monk in the PC Gamer live chat:

 

Josh Sawyer: we're actually pretty early in developing the companion ideas and i want to work more with george and avellone on fleshing out their story arcs. i don't remember the order in which each class was unlocked, but one of them was forton, the monk. forton is a big believer in mortification of the flesh. and the use of mind-expanding drugs. we won't be having companions for every single class, but that's one of the reasons we wanted to develop the adventurer's hall. that will allow you to supplement/build your party however you would like.

 

http://en.wikipedia....on_of_the_flesh

 

Flagellant?

http://forums.obsidi...lass-companion/

 

I hope it's a class kit that Forton uses and that there's other paths one can take if one wants to make a Monk.

 

Heck, I hope that all Classes "evolve" as you play them. In the best way that I can think of would be starting off as a rather "Commoner Monk" and as you put your perks/skill points/abilities out and such and so on and on he becomes either a "Flagellant Monk" or a "Spiritual Monk" etc. etc.

 

Forton is a companion after all, so he should/could/would have his own path, no?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Osvir

[Umberlin]

I always liked class kits as an option, obviously with the option to ignore them and do your own thing.

 

I'm less certain about the idea of class evolution, simply because it can be done in so many ways. With some it's a simple matter of how you build them being what they evolve toward, versus what they start out as. In other cases you have things like prestige classes or upgrade classes and so on. There are a lot of ways to do it. Given we aren't really seeing prestige styled classes so far . . . my assumption is it'll be more a case of build? Or maybe there's still more to hear.

[Shadenuat]

At least there are operating slavers in region, maybe we'll be able to sell Forton with his useless flip-flops away.

[Osvir]

I always liked class kits as an option, obviously with the option to ignore them and do your own thing.

 

I'm less certain about the idea of class evolution, simply because it can be done in so many ways. With some it's a simple matter of how you build them being what they evolve toward, versus what they start out as. In other cases you have things like prestige classes or upgrade classes and so on. There are a lot of ways to do it. Given we aren't really seeing prestige styled classes so far . . . my assumption is it'll be more a case of build? Or maybe there's still more to hear.

 

What I'm going for is Progressive Classes, if that makes more sense than saying "evolving".

 

In Baldur's Gate 2 you can start off as a Ranger, with the Class Kit of Samurai, for an example, so you are already a Samurai from the get-go. What I am suggesting is that you'd start off as a noob Ranger, a "commoner". Maybe you develop into a Samurai by your travels, you meet a Master Swordsman that teaches you the ways of the sword, or you make a name for yourself as a Samurai etc. etc.

 

Kind of like... before becoming a true "Paladin" you are an "Initiate" or "Apprentice" (a student), and you need to progress and grow in your path to become a Paladin. Taking Paladin as an example in this case, the facts stand that there are going to be lots of Deity's in the realm, and to my knowledge there is only one "Paladin" thus far (no Class kits in other words). Could I not choose, in-game, who to pray too, what kind of Paladin my Paladin becomes by playing? What Gods he gains benefits from and such or do I have to decide that before I start playing? (During Character Creation/Culture thing)

 

Mechanically, from leveling up is just the easiest way to do it from a developer's perspective (e.g., "You are now Level 3, you can now choose to be a Flagellant Monk or a Chi Monk!" with descriptions of what they are).

 

In-game roleplaying-wise I'm sure might be a bit more difficult and could get confusing. Planescape: Torment does this very well (becoming a Mage as an example) but PS:T isn't open-world in the same sense that Baldur's Gate is and thus I think it is easier to focus on it.

 

This one again:

I'm less certain about the idea of class evolution, simply because it can be done in so many ways.

 

Also I'm not speculating that it is going to be a part of the game, I am suggesting it/opinion that it could be cool if done right (and Obs is capable of just that). I'm pulling out the "If there's time and resources" argument (again). I should start taking note of how many times I use it hah.

 

EDIT:

At least there are operating slavers in region, maybe we'll be able to sell Forton with his useless flip-flops away.

 

Interesting concept... could we trick our companions? Could they come back for revenge? That'd be awesome tbh, could be epic.

 

You sell Forton to some slavers, he breaks loose, takes over a ship, sails back to the coast, hunts you down, becomes a mini-boss or you can convince him that you were wrong and that you want him in your party again xD I kind of like this dude to be honest, I just want the "Spiritualistic" Monk approach to be in the game as well and I hope that not ALL Monks are flagellant masochistic drug-abusing plate punchers.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

edit: fail post

Edited October 13, 2012 by Osvir

[MjH]

I was thinking about difference between warriors, wizards and monks meanwhile reading thread above. My opinion is that in average situation looks as following:

• Warrior type - 90% of time rely on tools as swords, armor and so on; and 10% of time rely on skills as 'might push' etc.
  
• Wizard type - 10% of time rely on tools as bow, staff; and 90% of time rely on skill e.g. fireball.
  

 

And historically it is aligned with their roles in party: warrior are contact fighters; wizards are distant fighters.

 

However we have archers. They were boring at the beginning but later various types of bows/guns/crossbows appeared combined with different bullets; and it resulted in that it's now interesting to build your archer.

 

Now back to the monks. Can you build your unique monk? They all look the same. They still rely 90% on tools, their enhanced hands and body. But number of tools is very limited for them that is why IMHO they are boring.

 

Careful reader already should noticed where I'm going. Warrior types have melee and distant builds. But wizard type usually have only distant build. Monk has his place here: to be a 'wizard' at close combat. Monk should rely 90% on his skills. What do you think?

[Michael_Galt]

I haven't read through all the posts, and might sometime in the future. I like "kung fu" monks. That's the whole point- they learned to fight in ways that were not conventional. Sometimes it was with sticks, sometimes blades, sometimes unarmed. At least in the east, unarmed was probably the "standard", since monks didn't walk around armed anywhere. Martial arts aren't always practical, since they also reflect a "life philosophy".

 

Priests, chanters, and wizards are already in the game- I don't see what you expect monks to do, if not fight with their body. Fighters have every weapon to choose from (to include guns now), so they certainly aren't very limited. That's WHY I like playing a monk. I get to "fight" in a non-conventional way, rather than a "standard" fantasy way, with a medieval weapon. I LIKE that they don't have to rely on tools, because they ARE the tool. I look at it like this- if my monk gets captured and stripped naked, he hasn't been reduced as a threat. Do that to a standard fighter and he is nearly useless, ESPECIALLY if he was captured by high-level enemies when he was high-leveled, as he likely had numerous magical items which were necessary to put himself on parity with them. My martial arts monk sees a wide chasm and doesn't think twice about whether he can jump it, because he's trained his body to be incredibly agile and explosive. That same fighter sees it and realizes that with all the equipment he carries, he likely won't make it. My martial arts monk doesn't just train his body, he trains his mind. His concentration and sense of self are incredible, as is his understanding of human nature and of nature itself, because he spends hours meditating on those things.

 

I don't think that there should be one "class" of monks, that only have a single style. I think there should be multiple classes, but I'm not writing the lore. I would make "magical" monks that channel the elements (like the one pictured in the poster), metamorphic ones that can assume the shapes of different types of animals when they are fighting, "melee" ones that just have awesome hand-to-hand abilities but no "magical" powers (besides damage output), and "ninjas" which would be capable of stealth and evasion in combat, with maybe a few key deadly abilities.

 

I love monks.

[Aedelric]

At least there are operating slavers in region, maybe we'll be able to sell Forton with his useless flip-flops away.

 

That made my morning. :D

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I alo like kung fu monks. No need to change them.

[kenup]

Different backgrounds would work for both.

 

Monk background 1: You were a monk/priest at a church/temple/monastery of Magran(firearms!)... bla bla bla......

Monk background 2: You have traveled to the <Tibet equivalent> of the world, where you learned some of the best close combat unarmed techniques.... bla bla bla....

Monk background 3: You are a devout follower of Eothas, the god of salvation. You keep trying to save the souls of the people of x, through a show of kindness and health care bla bla bla...(Hospitaller)

Monk background 4: You love BDSM. (Flagellant)

[Aedelric]

That would be a good concept, your background defines who you are and what kind of monk you start as.

 

It does not stop Forton from being a goofy Shaolin wannabe, but it does open up other avenues to those players that want to be a different kind of Monk.

[Michael_Galt]

Oh, and for some displays of "unrealistic", real life martial arts feats:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTSXx1ks0I&feature=related

 

So, for those that don't plan on watching the entire segments, here's a summary: A shaolin monk uses qi/ki/chi to bend an iron sheet by pounding it against his skull. He also has someone break a 100lb slab of concrete on his back with a sledgehammer while he is balanced on 3 spearheads, one of which is on his throat. He then proceeds to apply a power drill to this stomach, throat, and skull, with the end result of a bit of an abrasion on each area. A "ninja" "fights" on saucers balanced on beams. The scientists say, "he has more balance than a cat". The other martial artists couldn't even stay on those same saucers when they tried, of if they could, not for very long. A taekwondo world champ shows that he can punch faster than most people can even SEE. Karate breaking champions break bricks with their 2 hands and forehead AT THE SAME TIME. They produce more force doing this than they did when using a sledgehammer. One of them literally runs into a brick "wall", breaking every brick in it. He produced 4,000 foot pounds of force doing it, which was 3-4 times that of swinging a sledgehammer from over the shoulder.

 

So, these were things done in real life. Now, let's add in the component of "magical" karate or ninjutsu, or whatever. Obviously, even more impressive. Sorry to say it, but those were all "Asian" martial arts. I don't know why that matters. Martial arts could have begun anywhere, but they happened to have the right confluence of factors in Asia. Doesn't mean they can't be in __ (whatever this world is called) because it is beyond someone else's imagination.

 

I would love to be a "champion breaker" in real life, but don't desire to devote a couple decades of my life to mastering it. That's why I like to play my "monk", which can "punch through armor". Monks usually are not quite as effective as fighters, because they CAN'T wear armor or many weapons. Fighters get all sorts of magical effects from their gear. The fighter could have "free motion", "immunity to charm", "haste", and a whole series of other effects that the monk can't have. And it's pretty rare to see a "naked monk" with a better "AC" than a fighter, which makes them more vulnerable.

[Michael_Galt]

And some more...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUoUWNR2msU&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wMKJmQqC-M&feature=fvwrel

[Michael_Galt]

and the last...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvI9mGPujaY&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW1TmSlVkT8

[FlintlockJazz]

The fact that even mages are wearing armour in this game makes the lack of armour for the monk even more out of place. Side note: martial arts refers to all forms of combat, firing an AK47 is a martial art. Also, medieval Europe had many forms of martial arts, especially the knights who were brought up trained for warfare and trained in many forms of unarmed combat that rivalled anything from the East, it was just unfortunate that most of it has been lost instead of preserved.

 

I personally would have liked to have seen a 'martial artist' built around the style of the rest of the world: an armoured monk, one who may still fight with fists but wears armour for the same reason as the mage: counteract the use of firearms. In fact, the stated reason that mages have to wear armour due to firearms getting through their mystical defenses raises the question of why that is if the monks are able to counteract it.

 

A gladiatorial martial artist would have been rather intersting, or a monk habit wearing badass. I'm not a fan of Fortan's appearance and see it as a wasted opportunity to do something new with the class like they have done with many of the others.

[Michael_Galt]

I'll have to agree to disagree. Martial arts take "martial training", and make it into an "art". Just training in combat doesn't make you a martial artist- you must also be expressing your "philosophy" through your fighting style. I don't know whether or not medieval warriors from Europe would or would not have "fared well" against martial artists, and it never happened, so we'll never know. Besides the Spartans, there were very few warrior classes in Europe that were "raised into" their culture of fighting from a young age. Most professional warriors were either mercenaries or nobility. Mercenaries obviously had an interest in staying alive, but I don't think there was any real group of "European martial artist mercenaries" that perfected a singe style of combat. I know the Swiss were famous for their halberd/spearmen, and the Germans for their "zweihanders" and axe-men, but that isn't quite the same thing, I don't think. Maybe.

 

There's also a pretty big difference between a "wizard" and a "monk", at least in the way I conceive of it. The wizard is often stationary, chanting, waving, manipulating totems, whatever. So his magical shield is likewise "stationary", and thus, targetable. A monk is predominantly a melee fighter, and thus isn't staying still. That means his "shield" is just as breachable, but it's moving, which makes it more difficult to target. This is assuming he gets one, of course. And while I'm not against having monks that don't do flips and stuff like that, they would definitely have to be careful not to "unbalance" them by giving them armor. If that results in a decreased movement speed, or penalty to use of certain abilities, that would be fine. But otherwise you would end up with a fighter that would likely destroy regular fighters, when also factoring in his supernatural abilities...

[Elerond]

Art of the combat was not unknown consept in medieval Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts

[Aedelric]

Damn that is the video I accidentally watched the other day, with the monk and the drill, that video shows what nonsense all this "Superhuman kung-fu" truly is.

 

I agree with you FlinkLock, wasted opportunity.

[Nonek]

Got to say I wasn't particularly impressed by the Monk illustration, i'd prefer more conservative sensible attire, a certain stillness in pose but a glimmer of pent up potential. My own idea for the class, a mixture of an ascetic, a flagellant and a mystic:

 

You were born on the field of battle, crawling from your dying mothers womb and lying in the pool of warm blood which spread around her. The Awoken found you there, as they have found survivors amid devastation for over a millenium, attracted by your lusty cries and the equally outraged roaring of your infant soul, they knew you were one of them. Since that day you have been trained and tested, some would call it abuse to subject a child to such harsh measures, but with each lesson you glimpsed the Oneness that was promised to the aspirant. It was beautiful.

 

When the body is strong, the mind keen and the soul chained then an Awoken suffices to any task. The world slows, the elements are humbled and the power within one may be brought forth to stunning effect. I have seen granite smashed by a bare hand, a half dozen arrows plucked from the air and wounds close leaving neither scar or injury. But to harness such powers one must know oneself, body, mind and soul, only in that knowing can the Oneness be attained.

 

We Awoken aim to attain Oneness in all things, but we are not masters and we are all mortal. If we do not see the arrow, then it will tear into our fragile flesh. If the granite wall is too thick then it is as impenetrable as star iron. If the wound is too grievous then body, mind and soul are all harmed by it. The speeding bullet we may percieve but not even the fastest or wisest may evade.

 

Many ask why we follow this path when there are easier options available, we can only answer with a smile for what better path is there to follow than the hardest of all? We seek to test ourselves with the greatest of trials, master every aspect of our being so that we are worthy to bathe for awhile in the unity of mind, body and soul. The Oneness is beautiful, and all men should aspire to it.

[Hormalakh]

I STILL think thinking about monks as practioners of solely martial arts is the wrong way to approach this. Monks should be focused on their aspects of spirituality, devotion, esotericism. Martial arts was one of many ways that monks could approach this. If we take this approach towards looking at it, I think we can get further in this discussion. Even those Chinese martial artist monks weren't martial artists first and monks second. Not all Chinese/tibetan monks knew martial arts deeply. Jeez just watch a few Chinese martial arts movies. The monks that ran the place weren't always these super amazing fighters who jumped around like monkeys and bent pieces of steel into artwork. They were meditating, peaceful, philosophical people who tried to improve their spirituality before their fighting form.

 

Why do all the monks in this game have to be thought of like our David Carradine look-alike? I would love to play a monk in this game that limits his fighting pursuit, maximizes his pursuit of the soul, and tries to talk his way out of most combat. But, he's wise enough to know that battles DO occur and for him to be unprepared is unwise.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Nonek]

Surely that build will be available Hormalakh? Just prioritise your dialogue skills, charisma, (sneaking?) and such.

[Osvir]

First video, 4:31~ with the drill... nice cut in the video

It's also funny how I asked the question "Is he really pushing it?" and they answer it with... strange diagrams on a computer?

 

Anyways enough with that, interesting video still.. personally not seeing any credibility.

 

Nonek <3 that was a great read :D

[Hormalakh]

I think you and I are on the same page Nonek. I'm just trying to convince the others that the monk class doesn't have to be a trope and can be new and interesting to play. And maybe also let the devs know to give this class a slightly different focus than most other games.

[Osvir]

Surely that build will be available Hormalakh? Just prioritise your dialogue skills, charisma, (sneaking?) and such.

 

That depends on if Forton is what defines what a Monk is ("Hurt me and I become stronger, I hurt myself and I become even stronger"~abilities and drug abusing abilities)