Thoughts on the "resting" mechanic.

[Telefax]

So, I made this thread in the general forum, not realizing that the forums had been split. That's what i get for using bookmarks i assume.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Ok, so I know this has more or less been done to death, especially since those rumours about a cooldown system started floating around, but I'd still love to discuss this issue, since it actually is slightly immersion breaking to rest all the time.

 

I've personally always loved the idea of a dungeon as a single adventuring day, and for most of my challenge runs in baldurs gate 1/2 i tried to finish the games without the day counter going over 100. I also hate the all resources restored between encounters type of gameplay found in say dragon age.

 

A suggestion here would be to look at (earlier) jrpgs, who often have you trek a dungeon to find a save point/rest point just before the boss.

 

To implement this gameplay in a quest driven, no combat xp, infinity engine-esque type of game (they said bodycount wouldnt be rewarded, and I'm looking forward to it), I think a good mechanic would be to have instanced dungeon levels. You enter, the dungeon starts. After that you have to beat most of the dungeon to get a good, fortifiable resting spot. If you leave the dungeon, all the combat encounters you did not talk/trick your way through, as well as all the traps, reset. For a larger dungeon, if you go down/up/leave a floor/pocket dimension/whatever the earlier level stay cleared if you go back to it, but the one you are currently exploring resets.

 

Now, i know that resetting dungeons is about as controversial as level scaling, but it would be nice to have a dungeon floor be a challenge, not just individual encounters.

 

Your thoughts?

[Adhin]

I don't like constant 'sleeping', I think specific rest/save points before a boss is just as silly, and resetting levels (with the exact same stuff, as in a literal reset) is just as bad if not worse then the constant sleeping. That all said I do hope they come up with some alternative to 'resting' (aka, sleeping).

 

That in mind I'd say make it actual resting, not sleeping. That's what 'resting' was in IE games.. sleeping, for 8 freakin' hours. Even if you had JUST slept 5 minutes ago which is.. practically impossible for the majority of population. It's like trying to force the sun down at high noon. Resting though, you can do that ANY time. Say you just jogged for 30 minutes, what do you do? You rest! You go sit down, you go read something, you take a breather... you don't pass out for 8 hours. The extremely complicated meneuver of sitting on your ass for a few can let you recover from all manner of stuff.

 

Now going off that, I think there shuold be resting and sleeping. Sleeping (full 8+ hours or whatever) is the complete recovery (or at least the chance to with good survival skills, or auto-recover if its an inn) but not as easily do-able, and something thats limited by at least 4 hours of in game time (at 'least'). Then you have 'resting' which is literally just a 5-10 minute 'breather' (not real time) that lets you recover some health and your, lets say for arguements sake, stamina (used for skill/spells). They may have use limiters that cut into your max stamina/hp over time of taking punishment/using skills (general combat stuff) and rest will only restore up to your current limit, where as resting would completelty restore your max values amongst many other things.

 

So yeah I'd say a 2 part system and use some kinda max-value debuff based off general combat factors that resting can't 'fix' but sleep can.

 

-edit-

spelling and words

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[metiman]

Maybe this is too logical for people, but have you considered limiting sleep by only allowing it every 16 hours? Yeah, I know it's a totally crazy idea and all.

Edited October 3, 2012 by metiman

[DocDoomII]

Maybe this is too logical for people, but have you considered limiting sleep by only allowing it every 16 hours? Yeah, I know it's a totally crazy idea and all.

I said the same thing in another topic. It wasn't that much of a success...

Edited October 3, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Adhin]

I think limiting it to every 16 hours is just as awkward if you ask me. I can tell you I can sleep much, MUCH sooner then 16 hours. Made more possible if you go out and exert your self all over the place like some adventurer would. Either way I think there should be some kind of limit on actual sleep, but I already went into that in my above post.

[Osvir]

but it would be nice to have a dungeon floor be a challenge, not just individual encounters.

 

I agree. This is actually great.

 

I feel that resting is something that should be available, but I feel that as a game mechanic a la "replenish all of my spells!" abuse/spamming needs to be limited. And I feel that Resting needs to serve a bigger purpose than that it serves in the IE games; most profoundly found in titles such as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

 

I think limiting it to every 16 hours is just as awkward if you ask me. I can tell you I can sleep much, MUCH sooner then 16 hours. Made more possible if you go out and exert your self all over the place like some adventurer would. Either way I think there should be some kind of limit on actual sleep, but I already went into that in my above post.

 

Limiting it to only 16 hours is awkward in a sense, but it is also logical. From a roleplaying perspective I can imagine my guys resting after the fight, eating something, perhaps drinking some water to keep themselves fresh before heading onwards towards the next encounter. I don't need a button that practically does nothing in-game for me to experience this.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Silver6986]

So, I made this thread in the general forum, not realizing that the forums had been split. That's what i get for using bookmarks i assume.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Ok, so I know this has more or less been done to death, especially since those rumours about a cooldown system started floating around, but I'd still love to discuss this issue, since it actually is slightly immersion breaking to rest all the time.

 

I've personally always loved the idea of a dungeon as a single adventuring day, and for most of my challenge runs in baldurs gate 1/2 i tried to finish the games without the day counter going over 100. I also hate the all resources restored between encounters type of gameplay found in say dragon age.

 

A suggestion here would be to look at (earlier) jrpgs, who often have you trek a dungeon to find a save point/rest point just before the boss.

 

To implement this gameplay in a quest driven, no combat xp, infinity engine-esque type of game (they said bodycount wouldnt be rewarded, and I'm looking forward to it), I think a good mechanic would be to have instanced dungeon levels. You enter, the dungeon starts. After that you have to beat most of the dungeon to get a good, fortifiable resting spot. If you leave the dungeon, all the combat encounters you did not talk/trick your way through, as well as all the traps, reset. For a larger dungeon, if you go down/up/leave a floor/pocket dimension/whatever the earlier level stay cleared if you go back to it, but the one you are currently exploring resets.

 

Now, i know that resetting dungeons is about as controversial as level scaling, but it would be nice to have a dungeon floor be a challenge, not just individual encounters.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I think what you are asking entirely depends upon the leveling system that will be implemented in Project Eternity, without this knowledge I cannot tell how this would affect the challenge of the game, regardless of difficulty level. On one hand I would say that I actually think your idea has some merit, but then on the other hand if leveling was anything like, say the BG series, then having a dungeon that constantly resets would be very exploitable.

 

That's not to say for example when resting in the wilderness in BG or resting in Watcher's Keep in BG2 or ToB and having constant interruptions that this wasn't exploitable either, but it is not on the same level as what you have suggested, and it may be too costly to implement anyways.

 

I would be interested to know what the devs think on the subject.

[Silver6986]

Limiting it to only 16 hours is awkward in a sense, but it is also logical. From a roleplaying perspective I can imagine my guys resting after the fight, eating something, perhaps drinking some water to keep themselves fresh before heading onwards towards the next encounter. I don't need a button that practically does nothing in-game for me to experience this.

 

I don't get this suggestion, I mean that should anyone who wants to play this game and 'roleplay', then why not just choose to not rest every w/ever number or hours you feel is realistic!

 

I think the mechanics of PE should punish the stupid choices every player makes (ie if using the vancien casting system) but not to the point of saying you can't rest whenever you want to, that's what getting woken up by the enemy is for!

[TrashMan]

That in mind I'd say make it actual resting, not sleeping. That's what 'resting' was in IE games.. sleeping, for 8 freakin' hours. Even if you had JUST slept 5 minutes ago which is.. practically impossible for the majority of population. It's like trying to force the sun down at high noon. Resting though, you can do that ANY time. Say you just jogged for 30 minutes, what do you do? You rest! You go sit down, you go read something, you take a breather... you don't pass out for 8 hours. The extremely complicated meneuver of sitting on your ass for a few can let you recover from all manner of stuff.

 

By simply resting a bit you can catch your breath but that isn't enough to fully remove your fatigue.

 

Go ahead and try. Don't sleep, just take 30 minutes pauses between bouts of owrk and see how far you can go. You NEED sleep. But you can't sleep all the time either.

However, you don't have to necessarily sleep for 8 hours.

If you're in a hurry you can sleep for 4 hours, and recover some fatigue.

 

This is basicly the fatigue system I've been advocating.

Breath can be easily recovered, (max) fatigue requires sleep.

 

 

The simplest way to balance it is to allow reasting only when the entire party enters a fatigues state OR/AND when sufficient time has passed from the last time you rested.

Edited October 4, 2012 by TrashMan

[IndiraLightfoot]

The more I read these interesting threads about rasting and fatigue, the more confused I get. Many games in the 80s and 90s gave me resting/sleeping fatigue, hehe. So, I've posted elsewhere that I really don't want to see fatigue, hunger, thirst and so forth. It is too realistic and tedious for a fantasy game with heroes and all. However, resting/sleeping is almost always part of a CRPG-package.

However, in NWN2 it got absurd, resting was literally a quick countdown. But, come to think of it, there were certain dungeons where no resting was allowed, and I loved those: You ran out of spells, potions, scrolls and what not.

 

So, perhaps I'm willing to reconsider some of your ideas of fatigue. I mean Runequest was a great game, where mana wasn't just regenerated in a snap. The idea of some kind of economy of heroic resources is perhaps not so bad, after all. It just needs some tweaking and it would be great if it gave another rhythm to resting. Like Adhin wrote, resting a while should be enough, and start to give back some powers etc. But I'd prefer if it takes quite some time and that recuperation is slow in pace. I would hate for some cooldown, and then like at a pling from a microwave you're baked and ready, maxed out for the next encounter. I want to some strategy, shortage of resources and a sense of "stress".

[Osvir]

Limiting it to only 16 hours is awkward in a sense, but it is also logical. From a roleplaying perspective I can imagine my guys resting after the fight, eating something, perhaps drinking some water to keep themselves fresh before heading onwards towards the next encounter. I don't need a button that practically does nothing in-game for me to experience this.

 

I don't get this suggestion, I mean that should anyone who wants to play this game and 'roleplay', then why not just choose to not rest every w/ever number or hours you feel is realistic!

 

I think the mechanics of PE should punish the stupid choices every player makes (ie if using the vancien casting system) but not to the point of saying you can't rest whenever you want to, that's what getting woken up by the enemy is for!

 

That's the thing, in Baldur's Gate the enemies you get woken up by are pointless too. Because they fill no purpose except Cannon Fodder (i.e they explode in meat).

 

What I am saying, which isn't a suggestion, is that sleeping and resting are two different things.

 

* Sleeping is difficult to do ALL the time. Try sleeping 16 hours and be awake 8 hours (Baldur's Gate in a nutshell) every day.

* Resting isn't difficult to do at all, I do it all the time, just sitting down or standing still is resting. In a sense taking a breathe is resting. Do we need a button for this?

[TrashMan]

What I am saying, which isn't a suggestion, is that sleeping and resting are two different things.

 

* Sleeping is difficult to do ALL the time. Try sleeping 16 hours and be awake 8 hours (Baldur's Gate in a nutshell) every day.

* Resting isn't difficult to do at all, I do it all the time, just sitting down or standing still is resting. In a sense taking a breathe is resting. Do we need a button for this?

 

I'm goign to poitn toward Jagged Alliance 2 again, as a game with a huge party, a fatigue system, resting AND sleeping, learn-by-ding and being UBER-AMAZING.

[Adhin]

@TrashMan: That's why i was talking about lowering max values as a penalty for extended scenarios. As a basic example every 10 dmg you lose 1 max hp. Maybe more of a ratio, maybe a bellcurved ratio where you don't lose much earlier on but the lower it goes the more you lose per dmg point. Either way points to allow that kind of thing while still not making that be the be-all-end all of getting back to 100% and having that be sleep.

 

Then again I think out-of-combat health regeneration (with a max-hp penalty for fatigue) would also make just as much sense, if not more. Though I think DAO/2 version of that is a bit extreme. I mean you hit max with in 2 seconds. And, witht hat, definitely 0 regen in combat, unless of course you got an item, or feat, that gives regeneration. Either I'd rather not have that sleep-resting being the only real method.

 

-edit-

As to what IndiraLightfoot, imma have to agree and go against 1 thing I said. Sleeping shouldn't have some kinda time limit on it. I'd rather just see it limited with IN a dungeon and all that but in a town, or in an inn.. definitely no cooldown. Sometimes you rest, realize you screwed something up, need to rest again... no reason you should have to wait 10 minutes.

 

A fatigue system of some kind that keeps that suspense with out having you constantly sleep mid dungoen would be great though.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Adhin

[Valorian]

Mybe there should be two different types of "resting". The first type would be "catching your breath" to remove fatigue, the 2nd type the "normal" prolonged resting that would replenish your HP/stamina/soul energy (i.e. mana).

 

I want to differentiate these two for one reason only. If I limit myself with the number of full-replenish (resting) I can use during the game, fatigue screws me up, because if you travel around the world you'll constantly be fatigued, as it was the case with BG 1. So for instance I'd want to remove the fatigue effects, but not necessarily constantly replenish all my resources.

That is.. if they do introduce a fatigue system in PE.

[Adhin]

Well, BG wasn't really normal fatigue it was you wher tired-tired. It was a 'you've been awake for over 24 hours, what the ****'re you still doing awake?'. Or some spell that causes that effect. I'm talking something a bit more immediat tied to basic combat. If it just amounts to some minor -stats cause you've beena wake for a set time (or happened to cast haste on you to often) thats... it's just not the same.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Adhin

[Valorian]

Well, BG wasn't really normal fatigue it was you wher tired-tired. It was a 'you've been awake for over 24 hours, what the ****'re you still doing awake?'. Or some spell that causes that effect. I'm talking something a bit more immediat tied to basic combat. If it just amounts to some minor -stats cause you've beena wake for a set time (or happened to cast haste on you to often) thats... it's just not the same.

 

Doesn't matter. I still want it separated (if they do have fatigue or sleep deprivation) for the reasons listed above.

[Adhin]

Well yeah I want a seperate thing from resting and sleeping, thougha s has been stated just standing around counts as resting. I don't even think we need a 'rest' button for that though if they do a BG style thing, no amounto f sitting around or taking a breather will remove being that tired. So I guess if they do a split between rest/sleep (even if resting is automatic) they should have a difference between fatigue and being sleepy.

[Ninjamestari]

I like the idea of restricting resting into certain areas, such as inns and places where you can stay warm and such. Maybe your characters would also need nourishment every now and then in order to rest. Getting to that inn after a long journey on the overgrown forest road should feel as much a relief to the player as it does to the character. That gives you a completely different mindset when you approach the NPCs inside the inn while you order some food and drink. Talking about food and drink, you could have some kind of mood/nourishment variable that would partially determine how much you benefit from resting for example, which would make that relaxing ale a good idea (too much drink would obviously have a reverse effect). Maybe your thief might even persuade the local tavern wench to help the party relax in other ways.

 

EDIT: oh, and perhaps you might want to try a game of dice or cards so that you can afford a better room? Your thief might have some tricks up his/her sleeve to help you tip the odds in your favor.

 

Resting in wilderness areas might require you to construct a camp, a fire or something. You might need special items such as bedrolls or you might just get penalties for a lousy resting place, such as catching a cold for resting outside on a rather cold and rainy night. Your race and stats might affect the amount your character needs to rest in order to fully recover his stamina.

 

As far as hitpoints go, I don't think you should be able to passively regenerate wounds without some special supernatural or magical trait, and even if you rest those wounds should be treated properly. Perhaps a first aid skill that you can use to bind your wounds in order to let the character heal during the resting period. Food could contribute to that as well.

 

I absolutely abhor the instant regeneration after combat that the Dragon Age games have. It removes another layer of difficulty from the game, which is managing the health of your party. I liked older games where it wasn't enough to win the battle; if you took too much damage you'd be too wounded to continue to the next fight and you'd be forced to retreat, regroup and recuperate before continuing your journey.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Ninjamestari

[Osvir]

With the resting feature in mind... what about passing out, being awake too long?

 

I know I know, this isn't the Sims we're talking about (in a sense it kind of is, but I don't mind. The Sims is awesome xD).

 

Risk factor with being awake for too long is just that, you pass out and if you get caught red-handed in an ambush you're pretty much screwed (of course there is a tactical experience to that as well, and possibility to survive too. Just heavily at a disadvantage due to lack of fatigue). Makes me think of "Second Wind" in Borderlands actually, combining it with a system like that of a proper cRPG (again, the classical role-playing games).

[IndiraLightfoot]

Perhaps I'm going too far now, but what about scrapping "sleep" and make any rest at inns a high-quality resting with some temporary perk being turned on for like two hours? You know, like all those scattered priests giving the party blessings of all kinds.

[Osvir]

Perhaps I'm going too far now, but what about scrapping "sleep" and make any rest at inns a high-quality resting with some temporary perk being turned on for like two hours? You know, like all those scattered priests giving the party blessings of all kinds.

 

I can't resist but this sounds like copied and pasted from W.o.W. "Well Rested" is a stamina thing?

 

However, I think that there should be a perk, as if encouraging the player, to rather rest at an Inn instead of out in the wilds (both for safety and because of comfort/morale).

 

Could sleeping out in the wilds cause demoralization? If you sleep outside this or that many times you'll notice your party becoming more and more grumpy, but by going to a Tavern and drink some as well as sleep at an Inn could replenish it? Hm..

[Lady Evenstar]

Maybe this is too logical for people, but have you considered limiting sleep by only allowing it every 16 hours? Yeah, I know it's a totally crazy idea and all.

 

I guess I'm deficient in logic. When I'm sick or injured in real life I frequently sleep more often then every sixteen hours. Why is it illogical to do the same in a game?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Osvir, I've never played WoW, nor do I intend to, so I wouldn't know.

 

But if for argument's sake some clever fatigue-mechanism is used for spells and stamina and so forth, as has been proposed by others, then I think it becomes a logical step to have a simple binary pair, FATIGUE-REST in an edless tug-of-war in the very game mechanics. This would make sense, however, the label of what you do in the room of an inn or on a cover on a forest floor could be "sleeping".

 

And Lady Evenstar, you are right, a strict 16 h limit seems absurd. But a 6 h or so limit for the game concept of "having slept" could be used.

[Osvir]

Maybe this is too logical for people, but have you considered limiting sleep by only allowing it every 16 hours? Yeah, I know it's a totally crazy idea and all.

 

I guess I'm deficient in logic. When I'm sick or injured in real life I frequently sleep more often then every sixteen hours. Why is it illogical to do the same in a game?

 

That is like implying that the party you deploy is constantly sick and injured (which they are in a sense it just sound funny).

 

But I get where you are going, the thing here is that in Baldur's Gate you have the ability to rest for 240 hours if you so wish too. I love it, I have the freedom to do it! Doing it would be utterly pointless as I only needed 8 hours to heal up my spells (one click). I would just like to see it more challenging and, purposeful.

 

This whole resting business in game seems to be player preference completely.

 

To counter with a real-life scenario towards you:

If I sleep 12-13 hours I get a headache, a bad headache. 12-13 hours is about the most I am capable of sleeping. My longest "record" of being awake is around 52 hours before completely and entirely passing out:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_can_a_human_sleep

 

I guess that the "This is a fantasy game"-argument is going to be followed soon xD then we'll go full circle!

 

Poster1: "Let's compare with real life"

Poster2: "Your comparison is invalid"

Poster3: "It's a fantasy game!"

Poster2: *Face-to-palm*

[Dream]

Maybe this is too logical for people, but have you considered limiting sleep by only allowing it every 16 hours? Yeah, I know it's a totally crazy idea and all.

 

To what, force people to go make a sandwich and watch some TV when they need to rest in game? Great design there.