Tropes vs Women

[TCJ]

Women acting all tough and saying "Anything you can do, I can do better" can be way overdone, too. If you ever want to see a reaction, jokingly mention that males should have a bonus to STR and females should have a bonus to CHA and watch the fireworks. Yeah, I did that once. It was hilarious, too. The funny thing is that what I suggested would actually be realistic and in NO WAY demeaning to either side... it's not like I said women shouldn't be able to wield a sword in the game or anything like that. People and their egos!

 

In regards to why shouldn't something be okay in a fantasy game because it's the way it is in real life.... well, I wouldn't always look to what's common in real life to determine what is correct. Quite often majority isn't correct.

Edited September 24, 2012 by TCJ

[Grimlorn]

I think that the issue of women's rights should be handled by in-game lore and be balanced among cultures. Just like in the real world, we have places where women are allowed to vote, go to school, and hold jobs. In some places they are beaten and stoned for minor crimes. It would be juvenile to turn all females into some kind of Conan the Barbarian sex symbol, but it would be unrealistic to make them all second-class citizens. The inclusion of magic would also be a big cultural rebalancing since physical strength would no longer be the only way in which to assert dominance over another.

Nah if magic existed, men would be better at it than women, so they'd have just as much dominance if not more.

[limaxophobiacq]

I hope Obsidian and the developers of Project Eternity don't get bogged down by arrant nonsense like this.

 

 

They should make a game they love to play and it will be good for us all.

 

 

When you start allowing political correctness and all manner of similar considerations poison the creative process, the result is always a DISASTER

 

I hope they dont pander to anyone,..they should just make the game they 'd like to play

 

 

Again raising feminism as an issue in the context of this game is arrant nonsense...

 

I very much agree.

 

Like I said it seems to me there are some here that think the game should conform to their social and political stances despite the harsh reality of the struggle to survive, genocide, murder, prostitution; the reality of some women using their feminine traits to gain advantage in a world filled with strife I am sure will be reflected in the game. That somehow they wan't everyone as equal rights or no racism in that dark and harsh world, no sexism or women that would do anything to survive just like there being men who would kill and butcher people for sport in such a world (don't see any one claiming male murders or rapists in such a world being gender stereotypes). People who think that the values in the game among these uncivilised and non-evolved societies should somehow mirror their utopian level of morality and social justice... I find it strange to say the least because the massive amount of disbelief that would create and destruction of immersion would be immense.

 

Then their are those who are simply jumping on the bandwagon just because of the armour females might wear in the game, I don't see those same people whining about how men are running around with mere loincloth and giant swords being unacceptable to them which is simple hypocrisy. There doesn't have to be silly armours but it has nothing to do with women, so people using it as example of sexism is wrong. It's just nonsensical armour thats all. You can't go around saying why do women not cover up in full plate yet ignore when male protaganists do not either. The fact is also there will be some women dressed in very little in such a world filled with hardships and power struggles trying to get ahead and use what they have to gain advantage, it makes sense.

 

In such worlds equality is far from reality and any game with such setting must keep true to the reality of that world, not the ideals of this one.

 

What, if any, indication do we have that project eternity has a world like this? Not that I don't think the world shouldn't have genocide, murder, & prostitution (though I find equating the three, even though IRL prostitution in the middle ages probably was pretty horrible, kind of comical).

[incubus9]

I think that the issue of women's rights should be handled by in-game lore and be balanced among cultures. Just like in the real world, we have places where women are allowed to vote, go to school, and hold jobs. In some places they are beaten and stoned for minor crimes. It would be juvenile to turn all females into some kind of Conan the Barbarian sex symbol, but it would be unrealistic to make them all second-class citizens. The inclusion of magic would also be a big cultural rebalancing since physical strength would no longer be the only way in which to assert dominance over another.

Nah if magic existed, men would be better at it than women, so they'd have just as much dominance if not more.

 

I assume thats a troll comment.

[Grimlorn]

Really women only have the not getting equal pay for equal work thing to complain about. All the rest is BS. And there is nothing productive that can come out of talking about this because everyone already knows that we can never really be equal. The truth isn't going to change.

 

No we wont be the same but saying that in-equal pay is the singular discrimination against women in society is just plain wrong. Sure there are biological differences but our culture (actually, most every culture) encodes us with values that disadvantage women in more ways than that. Just for one thing we raise children drastically different depending on gender (or do you think there is biological cause for little girls to prefer pink and boys to prefer blue?), and attempts not to do this have shown that while biological differences in temperament exist (esp. post puberty when we get all those hormones) girls and boys who are raised the same show much less difference in behavior (they did this in kindergarden not far from were I live, once hey got old enough for school the teachers thought the boys were unusual well behaved while the girls were "wild" when the truth was they behaved pretty much the same).

Yeah there are cultural ways of raising kids that differ from culture to culture, but a lot of those differences in culture are shaped by our biological differences and stem from them. That's what shaped the culture in which we raise our children differently. Different things are expected of men and women.

 

I can't really comment on what you're talking about. It's sounds more like a personal experience than an actual study, and I doubt those kids' behavior remained the same when they hit puberty.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Monkcrab]

I think that the issue of women's rights should be handled by in-game lore and be balanced among cultures. Just like in the real world, we have places where women are allowed to vote, go to school, and hold jobs. In some places they are beaten and stoned for minor crimes. It would be juvenile to turn all females into some kind of Conan the Barbarian sex symbol, but it would be unrealistic to make them all second-class citizens. The inclusion of magic would also be a big cultural rebalancing since physical strength would no longer be the only way in which to assert dominance over another.

 

Basically this.

 

Not sure if Grimlorn is being sarcastic. I mean, he should be, since it's Obsidian's magic system and only they have the final say of who's being better at whom or as equal as whom. But with the way the thread is going, I think my sarcasm radar is a little bit fried.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Monkcrab

[Wolfenbarg]

Replay Planescape: Torment and visit the brothel of intellectual lusts. Talk to all of the girls there and tell me that Obsidian doesn't have a grasp at making strong female characters. You can't. Lead characters like Fall-From-Grace, Annah, Kreia, and Atris are already well rounded and deep, but even their side characters aren't just drawn from a stereotype and left alone. If that was something you were afraid of, then ease your fears.

[limaxophobiacq]

 

I can't really comment on what you're talking about. It's sounds more like a personal experience than an actual study, and I doubt those kids' behavior remained the same when they hit puberty.

 

It was a study actually (I think, I read it in the newspaper), but I'm not sure I can find a non-swedish article on it.

[generic.hybridity]

Content of thread makes me a bit sad. But Obsidian's team have demonstrated that they have the capability to write well-rounded characters and are usually quite cliche busting. So I look forward to that in Project Eternity.

[Grimlorn]

I can't really comment on what you're talking about. It's sounds more like a personal experience than an actual study, and I doubt those kids' behavior remained the same when they hit puberty.

 

It was a study actually (I think, I read it in the newspaper), but I'm not sure I can find a non-swedish article on it.

You'd need a couple independent studies that last through the age 20 or something to even get me interested. You're just basically saying that boys and girls who were raised the same acted the same at the age of 5. That's nothing and doesn't prove anything about the biological differences between men and women being cultural or environmental. Edited September 24, 2012 by Grimlorn

[limaxophobiacq]

I can't really comment on what you're talking about. It's sounds more like a personal experience than an actual study, and I doubt those kids' behavior remained the same when they hit puberty.

 

It was a study actually (I think, I read it in the newspaper), but I'm not sure I can find a non-swedish article on it.

You'd need a couple independent studies that last through the age 20 or something to even get me interested. You're just basically saying that boys and girls who were raised the same acted the same at the age of 5. That's nothing and doesn't prove anything about the biological differences between men and women being cultural.

 

So you are agreeing that we do raise them differently? Do you think how we are raised doesn't influence our behaviour or do you not think the way girls are raised differently disadvantages them?

 

Edit:

>it's 04:14

 

yeah I'm going to bed now

Edited September 24, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[Grimlorn]

I can't really comment on what you're talking about. It's sounds more like a personal experience than an actual study, and I doubt those kids' behavior remained the same when they hit puberty.

 

It was a study actually (I think, I read it in the newspaper), but I'm not sure I can find a non-swedish article on it.

You'd need a couple independent studies that last through the age 20 or something to even get me interested. You're just basically saying that boys and girls who were raised the same acted the same at the age of 5. That's nothing and doesn't prove anything about the biological differences between men and women being cultural.

 

So you are agreeing that we do raise them differently? Do you think how we are raised doesn't influence our behaviour or do you not think the way girls are raised differently disadvantages them?

I think men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. I also think variety is good. I wouldn't want to date a woman that's like me.

 

I do agree that we raise men and women differently, but that those differences stem from the biological differences of men and women. It's not entirely environmental. That's what has shaped our culture.

 

It's not like men woke up one day and said this is how I'm going to keep women down by raising them differently. Men and women are different and different things have been expected of them in the past and continue to be expected. I kind of doubt they will change.

 

Unless women are willing to give up a lot of what makes them women and men are willing to too.

 

I mean do we really want to be physically and mentally equal with sexual organs being the only difference? Sounds pretty crappy to me.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Grimlorn

[TheMufflon]

Nah if magic existed, men would be better at it than women, so they'd have just as much dominance if not more.

 

It's true: male wizards always have their wands handy.

[gglorious]

I think most people are right. Obsidian has shown a wonderful track record for some very good female characters. I don't mind if sex politics themes are included, but they need to be included in a way that is humanizing, not purely ideological constructs. If misogyny is included, then the misogynists shouldn't be straw misogynists, they should still be real people and the game player should feel like they've encountered a very real situation, not simply a dragon to be slain. I have no problem with glossing over the entire issue with some equality, but it'd need to be real equality.(which would that if there are prostitutes, there are male prostitutes) Otherwise, I do think that something to dig a little under the skin about it should exist.

 

This could even simply be the prostitute that doesn't want to sell her body and is doing this out of desperation.(like BG2) The guys at Obsidian are amazing writers. Their games are art. I would like this to be a masterpiece, and that means it should be probing, just like their other great games.

[Grimlorn]

Nah if magic existed, men would be better at it than women, so they'd have just as much dominance if not more.

 

It's true: male wizards always have their wands handy.

Haha, and they get a lot of practice with them.

[Inertia]

ill just leave these here i wonder what u guys think.

Anita Sarkeesian Part 1

 

Anita Sarkeesian Part 2

 

Edited September 24, 2012 by Inertia

[Dragoonlordz]

I do not see the point in this thread in the first place. People either have faith in the writing ability of the team or they do not, the ones do not are the ones who created this thread and have been arguing a feminist or equality agenda. Seems they have never played a game that Chris and the others have made or simply ignorant to the quality of writing the team are capable of producing.

 

I have faith in the writers, I believe in their ability and have seen them do a very competent job in past games. This is why I think this thread is pointless and this is why pandering to some people's political and sociological preferences in here is a waste of time and detrimental to the game because I know what Chris and the others are able to do. I suggest to those people arguing about it in here trying to push their social and political agendas actually go and play those past games, if they have and still jumping up and down about this then I question their real motives. Obsidian should handle it the way they want to and have shown time and time again they can do very well.

[limaxophobiacq]

I do not see the point in this thread in the first place. People either have faith in the writing ability of the team or they do not, the ones do not are the ones who created this thread and have been arguing a feminist or equality agenda. Seems they have never played a game that Chris and the others have made or simply ignorant to the quality of writing the team are capable of producing.

 

I have faith in the writers, I believe in their ability and have seen them do a very competent job in past games. This is why I think this thread is pointless and this is why pandering to some people's political and sociological preferences in here is a waste of time and detrimental to the game because I know what Chris and the others are able to do. I suggest to those people arguing about it in here trying to push their social and political agendas actually go and play those past games, if they have and still jumping up and down about this then I question their real motives. Obsidian should handle it the way they want to and have shown time and time again they can do very well.

 

Oh I don't doubt the teams ability to write a setting and story I'll adore for one second, I was just arguing against what I percieve as sexist attitudes here on the forum, as I think others are as well.

[Grimlorn]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I hope you're not accusing me of being sexist.

[Superdeluxe]

 

Maybe talk to Anita, who is behind Tropes vs Women in Video Games?

 

Why would they have to talk to her, I think the guys are well aware of the different tropes and it will be up to them what they want to have in the game

 

 

 

[Dragoonlordz]

I do not see the point in this thread in the first place. People either have faith in the writing ability of the team or they do not, the ones do not are the ones who created this thread and have been arguing a feminist or equality agenda. Seems they have never played a game that Chris and the others have made or simply ignorant to the quality of writing the team are capable of producing.

 

I have faith in the writers, I believe in their ability and have seen them do a very competent job in past games. This is why I think this thread is pointless and this is why pandering to some people's political and sociological preferences in here is a waste of time and detrimental to the game because I know what Chris and the others are able to do. I suggest to those people arguing about it in here trying to push their social and political agendas actually go and play those past games, if they have and still jumping up and down about this then I question their real motives. Obsidian should handle it the way they want to and have shown time and time again they can do very well.

 

Oh I don't doubt the teams ability to write a setting and story I'll adore for one second, I was just arguing against what I percieve as sexist attitudes here on the forum, as I think others are as well.

 

So you admit it has nothing to do with the game at all as to why you are here arguing with others, it is not to improve the game, it is to berate other people who happen to frequent this forum or support this game. In which case it has nothing to do with Project Eternity and would be better served on a politically or social mainstream site that is dedicated to enforcing changes in perception. In other words your using this site for your own political or social agenda... Need I remind you of where you are "Project Eternity Speculation & Discussion". So in this new found conclusion shouldn't this thread be locked since what it is being used for is not what this forum is about? Haven't you taken it off topic by your own admission? Which then leads back to my original comment, I do not see why this thread even needs to exist on here. Leave the writers who are more than capable of handling this do so on their own.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Grimlorn]

Maybe talk to Anita, who is behind Tropes vs Women in Video Games?

 

Why would they have to talk to her, I think the guys are well aware of the different tropes and it will be up to them what they want to have in the game

Quorem has one post. They're just a troll.

[Monkcrab]

I do not see the point in this thread in the first place. People either have faith in the writing ability of the team or they do not, the ones do not are the ones who created this thread and have been arguing a feminist or equality agenda. Seems they have never played a game that Chris and the others have made or simply ignorant to the quality of writing the team are capable of producing.

 

I have faith in the writers, I believe in their ability and have seen them do a very competent job in past games. This is why I think this thread is pointless and this is why pandering to some people's political and sociological preferences in here is a waste of time and detrimental to the game because I know what Chris and the others are able to do. I suggest to those people arguing about it in here trying to push their social and political agendas actually go and play those past games, if they have and still jumping up and down about this then I question their real motives. Obsidian should handle it the way they want to and have shown time and time again they can do very well.

 

Oh I don't doubt the teams ability to write a setting and story I'll adore for one second, I was just arguing against what I percieve as sexist attitudes here on the forum, as I think others are as well.

 

So you admit it has nothing to do with the game at all as to why you are here arguing with others, it is not to improve the game, it is to berate other people who happen to frequent this forum or support this game. In which case it has nothing to do with Project Eternity and would be better served on a politically or social mainstream site that is dedicated to enforcing changes in perception. In other words your using this site for your own political or social agenda... Need I remind you of where you are "Project Eternity Speculation & Discussion". So in this new found conclusion shouldn't this thread be locked since what it is being used for is not what this forum is about? Haven't you taken it off topic by your own admission?

 

It has to do with the game because some people with sexist attitudes were insisting that the sexist attitudes affected the game. That's where the argument started. Not going to lie, though, it did get derailed in a big way.

 

Whether it gets locked or not depends on the mods, however, so it's neither your call nor anyone else's. Heck, J.E. Sawyer himself came and derailed the topic, even if just in a different way!

[Dragoonlordz]

It has to do with the game because some people with sexist attitudes were insisting that the sexist attitudes affected the game. That's where the argument started. Not going to lie, though, it did get derailed in a big way.

 

Whether it gets locked or not depends on the mods, however, so it's neither your call nor anyone else's. Heck, J.E. Sawyer himself came and derailed the topic, even if just in a different way!

 

Of which on this topic, this element. I think both sides should be ignored.

 

Those promoting sexist agenda and those with their own political and social agendas.

 

I would also ask you to back up your claim this thread was created in rebuttle of so called "insisting that the sexist attitudes affected the game" since no mention of this approach was in the first thread post rather than this thread was created and started such sexist attitudes being expressed. In which the reality would shift from created to combat it to created to incite it.

 

Edit: In fact the OP even admits the development team are able to handle this aspect without his aid and has given examples of such.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Monkcrab]

It has to do with the game because some people with sexist attitudes were insisting that the sexist attitudes affected the game. That's where the argument started. Not going to lie, though, it did get derailed in a big way.

 

Whether it gets locked or not depends on the mods, however, so it's neither your call nor anyone else's. Heck, J.E. Sawyer himself came and derailed the topic, even if just in a different way!

 

Of which on this topic, this element. I think both sides should be ignored.

 

Those promoting sexist agenda and those with their own political and social agendas.

 

I would also ask you to back up your claim this thread was created in rebuttle of so called "insisting that the sexist attitudes affected the game" rather than this thread was created and started such sexist attitudes being expressed. In which the reality would shift from created to combat such to created to incite such.

 

The thread wasn't created in rebuttal of anyone insisting that sexist attitudes should affect the game. It was started by a misguided person/troll suggesting that Obsidian should ask for the opinion of a random, confrontational and plain misinformed youtube phenomenon because god forbid Obsidian try to write women, they're men!

 

Which was silly---Obsidian is pro at this, thanks very much---and I blithely ignored it up until a point. Can't say the same for others.

 

The sexist attitudes were posts coming out in response to the original post. Many were civil. Some, however, suggested that it's Quite All Right to be sexist because this is male fantasy! Or that NOTHING but medieval-styled subjugation of women should even be considered, because history! Even though OE never said that this is going to be medieval! <----this is what the 'rebuttals' are for, where perceived sexist comments are trying to influence the game setting. I should note, however, that I mind the second argument far less than the first. Others may YMMV.

 

And then the argument started. And then the argument got rolling. And then it's about argument for argument's sake, on both sides. The rest, as they say, is history. Personally I'd lock this thread ever since Anek posted that incredibly informed comment about gender roles like back in page 8, but the mods didn't, and that's their call, not mine. And if it's their call to keep it, anyone is still free to post their opinion in response to people's opinion and argue like 8-year-olds if they want to. Unfortunately, it's human nature to respond to opinion which affect one's own, and by this thread I suppose neither you nor me are exceptions.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Monkcrab