Character generation processes should be fun.

[Odarbi]

While it may not be everyone's cup of tea, there was a stat system used in a series of games know as Exile by Spiderweb Software back in 1995-1997 that was rather versatile and allowed for a lot of character customization. This system was also one of the first that I am aware of to break the mold, in that you didn't really start with a defined class - it was defined by you by your stat and skill selections.

 

The system was strikingly similar to, but still quite different from, D&D. You had your base stats and a variety of different skills(which included, but was not limited to: mage spell proficiency, priest spell proficiency, alchemy, archery, lock picking, throwing weapons, spears, swords, etc.) The real kicker was that you had to use a total point buy pool to level up both your stats and your skills at the same time, there was no differentiation between them. Leveling up your mage proficiency left you with less points to level up your intelligence or constitution. You also had the ability to take character flaws at character generation which could give you more skill points to spend, or character perks which, as I recall, would increase the experience you needed to level up. Every level you obtained during game play would give you additional skill points that you could distribute to these things. You could spend them immediately for smaller boosts, or save the points up between levels to get something really big. Different races got additional points to spend and/or initial levels in certain skills, but usually had some sort of flaw associated with them as well.

 

Each stat and skill had a different point value, and each level obtained increased that value required to level it further by a certain amount. Your base stats affected things like weapon damage, HP, carrying capacity, available spellpoints, etc., but your skill level for each skill was ultimately the main determining factor on what you could do with that skill, and how effective it was. In the case of magic, you could only use level 4 spells if you had level 4 mage or priest magic, regardless of how many spellpoints you had (though having a lower intelligence might leave you without the necessary amount of spellpoints with which to cast level 4 spells). Leveling lock picking would give you a greater chance of success, or reduce the chance of you breaking your pick. Leveling your weapon skills would give you a greater chance to hit, and also increase your damage by a certain amount. Higher alchemy allowed for the creation of more powerful potions. This ended up created a really interesting dynamic, in that sacrificing your base stats could mean having a stronger or better character over all.

 

Properly doing a system of this depth would not be easy, however, and would likely eat up a lot of resources. However, it could add a lot to the game.

 

All that being said: I'm perfectly okay with either a point buy or a random roll system. While I do enjoy more complex character creation systems, I don't want the game to get bogged down in development hell just to make one.

[Merin]

I'm all for the option to do either.

 

But, as much as I love creating characters for IWD, I surely didn't love hitting reroll forever.

 

Some randomness can be fun. I remember the old Phantasie games, where you could pick "random" for race and get kooky things. That was fun.

 

But stats... meh. In table-top it leads to cheating and imbalance. In cRPG's it leads to me having carpal tunnel.

[Parmenides]

How bout have them all as options? Roll for the people who liked gimped characters. You can also chose to answer questions. But once it's done, you'll get to tweak the results by adding/removing points from here or there.

[PsychoBlonde]

No, nothing random. Anyhow, Sawyer is too much of a balance hound to allow it. He's enslaved to the gods of balance.

 

Balance + Single Player = Null Program

 

Dump even the concept of "balance" as being desirable and let's have interesting and deep systems instead.

[Merin]

Balance + Single Player = Null Program

 

Dump even the concept of "balance" as being desirable and let's have interesting and deep systems instead.

 

That's not exactly right, though.

 

If you get to only make one character -

 

and there's imbalance -

 

the game, overall, is harder to design.

 

If the Sorcerer is five times as powerful/effective as the Fighter who is twice as effective as the Thief (all other things being equal), then combat encounters become a nightmare to design.

 

How do you make a fight that the Sorcerer doesn't snore through yet doesn't simultaneously prove impossible for the Thief without God Mode turned on?

 

For all things outside of combat, sure, balance is not important. And I would agree that CHOICES should allow for gimped characters (or just stylistic / RP reasons for making less effective characters.)

 

But base-line? The Sorcerer and Fighter and Thief need to be pretty balanced at their min build but especially their max build.

[Cantousent]

Anyhow, Sawyer is too much of a balance hound to allow it. He's enslaved to the gods of balance.

 

Balance + Single Player = Null Program

 

Dump even the concept of "balance" as being desirable and let's have interesting and deep systems instead.

Don't kill the messenger, lady! :Cant's guffawing icon: Seriously, every game needs balance. After all, they're not going to create a class that performs one action and all enemies are automatically dead in every battle. You have to balance the game to challenge a single player as much as you do multiple players. You don't have to balance PvP, but you still have to balance.

 

...And Sawyer is more of a balance hound than I am to be sure. Of course, his games have teh awesome and I buy them so he must know something I don't. :Cant's shrug and grin icon:

 

EDIT: I see Merin beat me to the punch. Yeah, what he said!

Edited September 22, 2012 by Cantousent

[Elthosian]

I hated rolling dices in games like Baldur's Gate, I prefer to have a fixed pool of stat/skill-points and a complex system that makes you think a lot about how to use them, Arcanum is a good example of this, before getting past Shrouded Hills I rolled almost ten different characters thanks to how many possibilities I had during char creation.

[metiman]

I hated the questions in fonv. If that sort of thing is included I hope it will be optional.

[Shoeless Joe Jackson]

Personally, I'd like to see stat rolling in the character creation. If you're planning on playing through multiple times with different characters, it's fun to be able to roll characters on a scale of being completely gimped to being demi-gods from the off. Maybe you could even set it so point buying system was in place for the first playthrough and the option to roll was unlocked after you'd finished the game with your original balanced character.

[agewisdom]

Hmm... quite a lot of interesting discussions. I think a questionnaire approach should be optional since quite a lot of Jagged Alliance 2 fans disliked some traits being automatically allocated. However, my thoughts on the questionnaires is quite different from what is being discussed here. Let me explain:

 

1. Present Life

In most CRPGs, the character generation is used to fill-in-the-blanks for the present life. This means whatever statistics and/or feats/abilities that is being picked reflects what you have been doing in your current life from age 0 - present. This is fine, in my opinion.

 

2. Past Lives

The soul system as elaborated so far by Oblivion makes for a far more interesting discussion. This is quite similar to the story of the Nameless One and his actions throughout his past incarnations. What I am proposing is to assume that the whatever PC that we are assuming has gone through several past lives/incarnations akin to Planescape Torment. In each of these past lives, he or she has had to make very difficult decisions which has repercussions in his current life. This is more or less similar to the Karmic belief in Buddhism.

 

Based on these questionnaires, certain quests or events may work differently. All this may be tracked via a different statistic system that is quite different from the normal stats that we're talking about.

 

***

 

For instance:

Your beloved husband was once a respected and powerful mage in the Ramayana Order. His ingeniuity and compassion was known throughout the lands. Alas, this courted the jealously and wrath of a powerful necromancer, Azeezal. With his foul arts, he cursed you with a debilitating disease which strickened your mind and caused your flesh to wither and rot.

 

Over the past decade, you have been delirious and often asleep. It is only in the recent months that you have begun to recover. To your horror, you realize that you are alive only due to the efforts of your husband. He has had to drain the life of a young woman every month to concoct an elixir to keep you alive. Azeezal has had his revenge, dragging your husband's soul down to the abyss.

 

Tonight is the night of another sacrifice. You have very little time left to make a decision. Do you:

1. Plead with your husband to stop this insanity, atone for his sins and let you die in peace?

2. Embrace your husband and take up the dark arts with him. Strive to work with him to take revenge on Azeezal.

3. Admonish your husband on his sins and command him to atone for crimes. Commit suicide to any further harm to his soul.

4. Etc...

 

***

A series of mini-questionnaires like this could lead to a few possibilities in role-playing:

1. A mini-quest where you get to actually meet the necromance Azeezal.

Imagine if he actually recognizes your past incarnation and makes reference to it. Depending on your decision in the questionnaire above, the quest could turn out differently. If you embraced the dark arts with your husband to take revenge, Azeezal might be even pre-disposed to side with you or allow you to proceed with your quest unhindered.

 

2. Soul fracturing

As the magic system is based on whether your souls are whole or fractured, it makes sense for the PC to have some decision in this. I think this is a much better way to approach it, rather than ticking - soul: complete, partly fractured, completely fractured.... Come on, where's the role play in that?

 

3. Historical reference

There could be some books etc. referencing this as historical fiction etc. This would give weight to your past actions ala PST style.

 

Well, this is just my 2 cents opinion, up for discussion.

Edited September 22, 2012 by agewisdom