President Obama

[BruceVC]

The discrimination I was talking about pertained to the USA and the "equal pay" legislation.

 

Okay, we misunderstood each other.

 

I consider any discrimination against women on any level in any country as something unacceptable

 

But I understand you were only referring to the salary issue which you are questioning if it is discrimination anyway

[Hurlshort]

Most women are cold and self serving. Why should I care about an issue(abortion), which for the most part is a result of their irresponsibility? I can't even understand why a man would make this his number one priority unless he's grasping at straws and has little else to vote on.

 

 

I'm really hoping this was simply an attempt at humor that fell flat.

[Calax]

I'm fairly sure every woman will now smack you. Them getting paid equally, and having access to birth control that's covered by medical insurance, is generally considered a big thing.

Most women are cold and self serving. Why should I care about an issue(abortion), which for the most part is a result of their irresponsibility? I can't even understand why a man would make this his number one priority unless he's grasping at straws and has little else to vote on.

Abortion is not the issue we are talking about per se, but just as a side note: the guy who wrote freakanomics had stated in one of his books that the reason that gang violence is dropping is because the children who would be joining the gangs because of the low income and parents who aren't around are instead being aborted. So that mom and dad are able to support the kids when they have them rather than just get screwed over by a single mistake.

 

We are talking about equal pay for women, which Obama has made a part of his platform and has shown he supports with legislation. Not that it's his number one issue, which is mostly economic, but it is something he is trying to identify with.

 

And not gonna lie, right now because of the fact you don't care about birth control or abortion, and are public about it, I would suggest that you are going to have trouble finding a girlfriend because not many people want to be with somebody who openly doesn't care for the issues that directly affect them. At least a few of my female friends are quite happy with Obama because they aren't spending 50ish bucks a month (ok, i dont know how much it actually costs off insurance) for their birth control because its covered by insurance under Obamacare.

[alanschu]

And not gonna lie, right now because of the fact you don't care about birth control or abortion, and are public about it, I would suggest that you are going to have trouble finding a girlfriend because not many people want to be with somebody who openly doesn't care for the issues that directly affect them.

 

Eh...

 

There's plenty of women that don't believe in birth control or abortions. I shared a link earlier in this thread about a woman that moved to Canada and was originally repulsed by the idea that Canada's health insurance covers abortions. My own Mom doesn't believe in abortions (I think her reasoning is a bit silly, but she is religiously conservative).

 

 

EDIT:

 

Here it is again

Edited October 18, 2012 by alanschu

[Meshugger]

not 72% difference between men and women... but women are paid 72% of what men get on average.

 

Screwed up my english sorry.

 

Okay thanks, but 28% is still a huge difference for the same job. Is this something that is known about and accepted or is this behavior that is actually illegal?

AFAIK that statistic hasn't been normalised for "same job", at least the one I see most commonly tossed around doesn't have that taken into account.

 

Kind of reminds me of a statistic we had here. How only the children of the wealthiest men get into the university. They compared the father's income of law and medical students to the national average, noting how a large portion of them where in the highest earning brackets. Ignoring the fact that employed people in their 50s tend to be the highest earners, on average.

 

Exactly, and for the rest of you:

 

 

Are there any recent polls based on this debate out yet?

Edited October 18, 2012 by Meshugger

[Calax]

And not gonna lie, right now because of the fact you don't care about birth control or abortion, and are public about it, I would suggest that you are going to have trouble finding a girlfriend because not many people want to be with somebody who openly doesn't care for the issues that directly affect them.

 

Eh...

 

There's plenty of women that don't believe in birth control or abortions. I shared a link earlier in this thread about a woman that moved to Canada and was originally repulsed by the idea that Canada's health insurance covers abortions. My own Mom doesn't believe in abortions (I think her reasoning is a bit silly, but she is religiously conservative).

 

 

EDIT:

 

Here it is again

Thus why I said trouble rather than impossibility. I mean there are still things like "Taken in hand" and the "Quiverfull" sects but most women I have had contact with are proponents of the two things being discussed here.

 

At least we haven't gotten to marriage as a form of gun control.

[alanschu]

Eh, I still think your statement is presumptuous. He might already have a girlfriend for all we know so the point is moot.

[Malcador]

And in any case, that's a pretty lousy reason to not voice an opinion

[Blodhemn]

I don't care about abortion in the sense that it's not my number one issue. I'm more than happy to leave it up to states rights though. People should vote on it at the local level whether or not it should be accepted - not some umbrella reaching across the board which gets out of hand and impedes on everyone's decisions.

 

And no one really picked up on it, but I was purposely misrepresting the workplace issue regarding women in the White House to show how one person can be villified easily determined by who's telling the story. There's some truth to it, but if you dig deeper it falls more in the line of a half-truth. And unfortunately that's how this whole election campaign for both parties are being run.

[alanschu]

Is the fact that we didn't pick up on it a good thing?

 

Or were you hoping to be called out for it?

[Blodhemn]

I was making a point. Just broadly labeling things across the board doesn't necessarily make it so. Which candidate is anti-female?

 

From just a few minutes of research, Romney initially had 45% of his top positions held by females as Governor and towards the end of his term, 28%. Obama currently has 35% out of 23 positions held by women. That small fraction must bring with it a lot of hate. And with regards to abortion, Romney's healthcare in Massachusetts already allowed for abortions to be fully covered. I guess females inside Massachusetts loved him, but outside hate him due to political talking points.

[Hurlshort]

There are clear civil rights differences between the two candidates though, one is progressive and one is conservative. I get that it comes more from them serving a certain voting base, but if I'm a woman, or I'm gay, or really if I'm any minority, I don't know how I can justify voting for Romney.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Romney show he is willing to support civil rights. It would allow me to take him seriously as a candidate.

[BruceVC]

Eh, I still think your statement is presumptuous. He might already have a girlfriend for all we know so the point is moot.

 

I think you are misunderstanding his point. I believe he is saying that a modern, liberated women won't be very impressed with someone who doesn't care about womens rights. And I agree. This applies to almost all the women I know.

 

Now I am not suggesting that people say they care about womens rights to get laid, as I pointed out I firmly believe that there is still discrimination against women and we should be opposed to it and be vocal about it just because its the right thing to do.

Edited October 19, 2012 by BruceVC

[alanschu]

I think you are misunderstanding his point. I believe he is saying that a modern, liberated women won't be very impressed with someone who doesn't care about womens rights. And I agree. This applies to almost all the women I know.

 

Actually, I suppose I was the one being a bit too subtle.

 

My point is that that comment is irrelevant and has no genuine bearing on the discussion. First, it's based on assumptions, and second, it starts to become an ad hominem attack. At best the comment becomes some level of unsolicited advice which is not necessary and may not even be accurate.

[Calax]

If I had more energy right now, I'd argue that the point I made could be turned around and applied to Romney who is either tapdancing around the issues, or just flat out ignoring them because he doesn't want to frighten his base.

[Humodour]

Most women are cold and self serving. Why should I care about an issue(abortion), which for the most part is a result of their irresponsibility? I can't even understand why a man would make this his number one priority unless he's grasping at straws and has little else to vote on.

 

You're a sexist pig.

 

"Most women are cold and self-serving"? You read like something out of a bloody textbook!

[Blodhemn]

Strewth, mate. Bloody hell.

[Hurlshort]

I'm not ashamed to admit I had to look up strewth.

[WDeranged]

Crikey!

[Farbautisonn]

I rather like both candidates and I rather detest them both.

 

Obama flunked forigen policy. He is very popular in Europe (where I come from, Denmark, especially so), but he has a string of questionable forigen policy blunders behind him.

 

The former east bloc nations feels he shafted them with the Rocket defense that he pulled. Apparently he did it to please the russians, but seemingly got nothing out of it. Got nothing in return... and politics is barter.

 

Then there is the "outstretched hand" to the arab world. It didnt really pan out. The dictators that have now been overthrown might have been rotten bastards but at least they were "our" rotten bastards. Now in places like Egypt and elsewhere, the anti american sentiment that has been fueled by decades of propaganda to mask the ineptitude and corruption of governance is allowed to have a voice of power. Embassies have been attacked, staff killed, and there the approval rating of a nation you give 2billion dollers minium in aid to per annum is sliding downhill.

 

Like it or not, the only real regional ally is Israel. Yes it causes crap for US policymakers, and Yes the US relationship with Israel causes antagonism in the mid east. But it is your only regional ally. Saudi is your allly only as long as you keep buying their oil and the locals rather detest america. Obamas constant blunders in relationship to Israels Netanyahu isnt promoting that relationship. Some of you might think that Israel is rotten, but its your ally. And you dont piss on allies. Especially allies that have so much political pull with your electorate as Israel does. Its just not good policy.

 

Obama uses more mercs and drone attacks than all of his predecesors. Some say combined. Its easy to cut troops with one hand when they are replaced by civillian contractors. Infact a sizeable percentage of the Casuties in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been contractors, both locals and forigen. These contractors do not face military or civillian courts. They sign contracts that essentially grant them "get out of jail free" cards incase they do something questionalbe. The only consequense to unbecomming conduct is that you get a planeticket home. Now mercs are not evil nor are they all cowboy outfits that plug anything that get in their way. But some are. The only reason to use mercs is that they are "void of political capital". If a soldier comes home in a box, he needs a flag and there are questions about policy. A merc comes home in a box there is zero political fallout. Its a non issue. Why is that?

 

The drone attacks have not been beneficial to the US forigen policy image that Obama has tried to groom. On the contrary. "Targeted killings" are frowned upon in both the EU and with middle eastern partners. Again, a drone has zero political capital and its "risk free" in a domestic election.

 

Then there is the Gitmo thing. Obama came to power promising he would shut it down. Its not. And infact the Homeland Security act, that de facto makes it possible for the president to suspend any and all civil rights of a US individual have not had its power cut. On the contrary.

 

Despite the above, Obama has a very impressive "nice guy" image... And I am struggling to undestand why. I dont see him as particularily nice in any fashion. He is just as much a politician and in it for the power as his opponent is.

 

 

 

On the other hand we have Romney. The "Flipflopper". Some of his supporters are what I would label "bat****e insane" who hates gays and pretty much anyone who isnt just as cristian, white and 'murican by a very select set of criteria. He is more of a "live and let die" type persona and more focused on numbers than on welfare. Comming from a socialst welfare paradise of "Flexicurity" , I really dont like that much. I realize its the american way and the "every man is the smith of his own luck" thing is embedded in american culture and that there has to be some loosers for there to be winners. During his campain he has said some pretty halfarsed things. But he seems to have a plan for the US economy that might actually work. Obamas plan is basically "more of the same". That really hasnt helped as much as everyone hoped. And economy is king in this election. Also he advocates a more "assertive" role for US forigen policy... which is something Id be happy to see.

 

 

Personally Id vote for Romney if I had the choise. But I dont. I wont mind Obama winning a second term, but I think Romney would be the better choise.

[Blodhemn]

That's somewhat my viewpoint as well. Personally it's getting a little old with how much love Obama gets from foreigners, when in fact foreign policy is more important to said foreigners yet they're unable to see how this administration has embeded themselves in the middle east and is just continuining the same old garbage foreign policy of old. We have drones above American skies too now. The public weren't even made aware - all of a sudden they just appeared out of thin air from a law Obama signed, which no one talked about. I mean the democratic party is more republican than the republicans in some ways. But, with that said, even though Romney appears to have a better economic plan on the surface, is he really going to cut spending? Will he fix anything or will we continue to snowball and continue more or less on the same track? I personally don't think there will be much of a difference between the two candidates. I've got a feeling that Romney is going to win the popular vote but Obama will take the electoral - all he has to do is win 3 states and he's got nearly all of them.

[AGX-17]

Most women are cold and self serving. Why should I care about an issue(abortion), which for the most part is a result of their irresponsibility? I can't even understand why a man would make this his number one priority unless he's grasping at straws and has little else to vote on.

 

You're a sexist pig.

 

"Most women are cold and self-serving"? You read like something out of a bloody textbook!

 

No textbook would say women are cold and self-serving. An old textbook from the 1960s and earlier (pre-feminism,) might say they're overly emotional and the ones who want to do things like "work" or "leave the house for reasons not pertaining to the needs of her husband" are mentally ill. Assume that any form of beauty products or fashions are qualified as having to do with the husband's prestige among his neighbors and co-workers, by the way.

 

You're improperly attributing to academia the sort of thing a typical 4chan or Stormfront user would say.

Edited October 22, 2012 by AGX-17

[Pidesco]

No textbook would say women are cold and self-serving. An old textbook from the 1960s and earlier (pre-feminism,) might say they're overly emotional and the ones who want to do things like "work" or "leave the house for reasons not pertaining to the needs of her husband" are mentally ill. Assume that any form of beauty products or fashions are qualified as having to do with the husband's prestige among his neighbors and co-workers, by the way.

 

You're improperly attributing to academia the sort of thing a typical 4chan or Stormfront user would say.

 

He's saying that blodhemn is a textbook example of sexism, not that academia is openly sexist.

[Calax]

A point I'd like to make. Obama still is wishing to close gitmo, but is being blocked by Congress and the states (who are of the NIMBY mindset in relation to the prisoners). He even said he wants to set up provisions to re-limit the power of the executive within the American system.

[BruceVC]

Its interesting. The hotel I am staying at in Vegas only has MSNBC and FOX for there news channels. We don't see either of those in South Africa and I can see that they both politically represent the left and right respectively, but they both have extreme views and in my opinion, at times, biased reporting. FOX seems worse. I normally watch CNN, Sky and BBC which all seem much more non-partisan and balanced.

 

I wanted to watch the final debate tonight but we have the opening introduction sessions and welcoming party at this symposium I am attending. I guess I will catch up tomorrow.