[Merged] Gods save us another romance thread

[Sarathen]

All the romance crowd can say is, yeah it's bad in most games but that doesn't mean it will be here. It makes no sense. Why keep trying to do something that doesn't work?

 

And people keep using PST as an example, but there wasn't really romance there. Most, if not all, the romance crowd is from Bioware. They want the same things they ask Bioware for. Romance all companions. Romances where there are fights with your love interest, romances that have story after you bed them, romances that can fail, but when they fail you become platonic friends and there are stories for that. This is what the romance crowd was asking for in previous threads, and at a certain point you have to say enough is enough and this is ridiculous to ask for.

I'm starting to think we have three separate groups here, and the overly generalized term 'romance' is sort of obscuring that.

 

1. No non-platonic relationships/references ever, kthxbai. It doesn't belong at all.

2. Gimme dialogue options, side interactions, etc. that give me various options for non-platonic relationships with my companions/other NPC.

3. I want my uncanny valley sex, stat.

[Merin]

It's been answered to death. It's never been done well. It's cheesy. It takes resources from other parts of the game.

 

Mostly I've seen digs at BioWare and digs at pro-romance people needing to "go out and meet a girl." And, yes, the eminently quantifiable "never been done well."

 

All the romance crowd can say is, yeah it's bad in most games but that doesn't mean it will be here. It makes no sense. Why keep trying to do something that doesn't work?

 

Straw man. Many pro-romance people actually have enjoyed romance in many games. I listed a whole bunch I enjoyed.

 

Selective quoting is selective.

 

And people keep using PST as an example, but there wasn't really romance there. Most, if not all, the romance crowd is from Bioware. They want the same things they ask Bioware for. Romance all companions. Romances where there are fights with your love interest, romances that have story after you bed them, romances that can fail, but when they fail you become platonic friends and there are stories for that. This is what the romance crowd was asking for in previous threads, and at a certain point you have to say enough is enough and this is ridiculous to ask for.

 

And here is the boil-down to "I mock BioWare fans."

 

You don't like romances in game, you think they are cheesy, and you don't think they've ever been done well. Don't the previous two points all but demand the third point be true?

 

What I'm seeing is mostly one side saying they'd like to see something, they feel said something fits in the game as much as most any other one thing...

and the other side mocking and ridiculing them.

 

Mostly.

 

Based on strength of arguments, you've at best got opinion versus opinion.

At worst, you have attempts at reasoning vs. personal attacks.

[Grimlorn]

Romance in games is always cheap and rushed out - consequence of the game not really having enough "time" and/or the designers just being garbage at it, I suppose.

 

My experience with ME, DA, KOTOR didn't really feel more enriching if I hooked up as opposed to not hooking up, I guess there were some sappy lines though.

 

I think this may be a reason why romances in games you've mentioned well, sucked (KOTOR had some good parts, but far from being significantly better). BioWare treats romance as fanservice, they literally throw it into their games because, well, it sells. Their fanbase largely likes it, but they do feel stupid, rushed, unnatural and forced because they do not consist an actual part of the plot.

 

Good romances in other types of media are always parts of the story itself, and should be treated as such. So it's writing quality we are talking about here.

You're talking about different forms of media. It's not in every movie or book btw, not even the majority. But in every RPG it's asked for and it's in almost all mainstream RPGs being released. I don't want to play a 30+ hour game that is about a romance because people want a romance integrated into the story. I hate soap operas and that's what it would be. Movies are only 1.5-2 hours long. You can avoid romance novels by not reading them. Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Reddie]

It's been answered to death. It's never been done well. It's cheesy. It takes resources from other parts of the game.

 

All the romance crowd can say is, yeah it's bad in most games but that doesn't mean it will be here. It makes no sense. Why keep trying to do something that doesn't work?

 

Okay, and how it makes no sens that if I am willing to back this project up, I do have a certain degree of confidence in it's authors?

 

And people keep using PST as an example, but there wasn't really romance there. Most, if not all, the romance crowd is from Bioware. They want the same things they ask Bioware for. Romance all companions. Romances where there are fights with your love interest, romances that have story after you bed them, romances that can fail, but when they fail you become platonic friends and there are stories for that. This is what the romance crowd was asking for in previous threads, and at a certain point you have to say enough is enough and this is ridiculous to ask for.

 

I can't speak for all the "romance crowd", but speaking for myself, I increasingly see this issue as battle between gamers and roleplayers. Some people play cRPG to beat it, in whatever way they feel good with. Which is all fine and dandy. Then, some other people play cRPG to experience a story - much as they read a book, watch a movie etc. Now, romances are often attempted by writers as an incentive for PC to do something. Gamers don't need this, to them the game itself makes and incentive, thus they see romances as unnecessary and perhaps wasteful in terms of developer resources.

 

That said, I obviously prefer no romance at all vs having badly written romance. I have enough of these in recent BioWare ventures. I don't think most of the anti-romance crowd would say something similar, as to them romance can only be, let me read these posts... Ah, yes - sad, childish, cheesy, and so on. What a terribly uncomplicated arguments you people have.

[Malcador]

Why is that sad? I'm an adult and feel completely comfortable calling videogames one of my guilty juvenile pleasures. I don't look to them to fulfil me the same way an Ingmar Bergman film or T.S. Eliot poem would. I play videogames to play games. To have fun using strategy, solving puzzles and hopefully get entertained with some fresh, interesting and well-implemented stories and ideas. But even the most well-written games (PS:T for instance) do not come anywhere near the most well-written films, books or poems. It is what it is.

 

UH OH CUE VIDEOGAMES VS ART CONVERSATION IN 3...2...1...

 

What, don't you want to be immersed, Twinkie ?

 

I think this may be a reason why romances in games you've mentioned well, sucked (KOTOR had some good parts, but far from being significantly better). BioWare treats romance as fanservice, they literally throw it into their games because, well, it sells. Their fanbase largely likes it, but they do feel stupid, rushed, unnatural and forced because they do not consist an actual part of the plot.

 

Good romances in other types of media are always parts of the story itself, and should be treated as such. So it's writing quality we are talking about here.

 

Well, if part of the plot is your love of some woman, then the game/book/etc is a romance-X thing no ? Not exactly what's being aimed at here. Not only Bioware's romances are underwhelming or eyeroll inducing, CDP's or even some in adventure games (Runaway's sort of fits in) so it's not some dig against them or their legion.

 

I'm not sure everyone who disagrees with romance in games is some min/max powergamer out to assail you pure RP'ers as you're hinting at, either. The pro arguments are about as nebulous as the ones you chose, as well, it's 'enriching' , 'immersive', etc.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Malcador

[Grimlorn]

Straw man. Many pro-romance people actually have enjoyed romance in many games. I listed a whole bunch I enjoyed.

Oh I know they enjoy them, but they also want more of the game about them, and they admit the ones from Bioware no longer satisfy them and aren't as good looking back.

 

And here is the boil-down to "I mock BioWare fans."

If the shoe fits...

I've actually seen people on the Bioware forums ask for the same stuff. It's not really insulting or mocking if it's true.

 

Okay, and how it makes no sens that if I am willing to back this project up, I do have a certain degree of confidence in it's authors?

I don't know what you mean by this, but Obsidian owes you nothing just because you want a romance and donated. It's a donation not an investment. Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[TwinkieGorilla]

What, don't you want to be immersed, Twinkie ?

 

Ehehe. You know...that's funny. Because it's always those heavy-handed moments which really break the 'mershun and show how the medium tends to embarass everybody involved and remind you of its shortcomings.

[Reddie]

If you don't equate romance itself, in whatever genre or media as childish, then in fact you are counting videogames as a childish form of entertainment and romances in them get caught by extension.

 

Which really is sad.

 

Why is that sad? I'm an adult and feel completely comfortable calling videogames one of my guilty juvenile pleasures. I don't look to them to fulfil me the same way an Ingmar Bergman film or T.S. Eliot poem would. I play videogames to play games. To have fun using strategy, solving puzzles and hopefully get entertained with some fresh, interesting and well-implemented stories and ideas. But even the most well-written games (PS:T for instance) do not come anywhere near the most well-written films, books or poems. It is what it is.

 

UH OH CUE VIDEOGAMES VS ART CONVERSATION IN 3...2...1...

 

Video games are art, in that they are a creative product of human mind. They are not art by definition in terms of conveying some deeper meaning, evoking thoughts and feelings. But nontheless, I would count a few games in there. Yes, PS:T included. Now, you do realise that having so hostile attitude towards differing opinions as yours is quite impolite, do you?

[Grimlorn]

That said, I obviously prefer no romance at all vs having badly written romance. I have enough of these in recent BioWare ventures. I don't think most of the anti-romance crowd would say something similar, as to them romance can only be, let me read these posts... Ah, yes - sad, childish, cheesy, and so on. What a terribly uncomplicated arguments you people have.

That's the thing. Everyone that's pro romance has played a lot if not all of Bioware's recent games. They obviously are doing something right for you to still want them in RPGs and think they're a good thing. They've made it popular by inserting it into every game they make for their fans and they love them for it.

[TwinkieGorilla]

You consider that post as being hostile?

[Reddie]

Okay, and how it makes no sens that if I am willing to back this project up, I do have a certain degree of confidence in it's authors?

I don't know what you mean by this, but Obsidian owes you nothing just because you want a romance and donated. It's a donation not an investment.

 

You're right. You don't know.

[The Sharmat]

...uhm...actually *everyone* voting in this poll here is (at least by OPs definition) already *pro* romance. The only question is *how much* in favor they are.

Since you and only one or two other posters seem to have actually read the poll criteria, I don't think that's an accurate representation of the vote. Both the poll and the thread utterly failed at doing what I hoped to accomplish. Though naturally my poor wording has a large share of the responsibility as much as the other participants.

 

EDIT: To remain on topic, and since not a lot of others answered. Interactive romance plots in games I felt were done well:

 

Torment: Annah and Fall-From-Grace.

Kotor 2: Handmaiden, Atton, Darth Sion.

ME3: Garrus. Not the ME2 one though.

 

Note that only one of those examples was from a Bioware game. The idea that the majority of those in favor are from BSN, even if it's true (and I don't know if it is or not. Personally I can't stand the place.), isn't a logical argument; and is the sort of lumping together of opposing views I'd hoped to avoid.

Edited September 21, 2012 by The Sharmat

[Reddie]

That's the thing. Everyone that's pro romance has played a lot if not all of Bioware's recent games. They obviously are doing something right for you to still want them in RPGs and think they're a good thing. They've made it popular by inserting it into every game they make for their fans and they love them for it.

 

You've again built yourself a straw man. I wrote that I can turn to their games for poor quality romance, granted. This contradicts ANY possible option of me liking romance subplots in their games.

 

And yes, they are doing something right, they are making games from a nearly dying genre of story-driven cRPG. It's not like I have much choice here. That being said, my last BioWare game was ME2 and I don't plan to change that in predictible future

[Grimlorn]

If you don't equate romance itself, in whatever genre or media as childish, then in fact you are counting videogames as a childish form of entertainment and romances in them get caught by extension.

 

Which really is sad.

 

Why is that sad? I'm an adult and feel completely comfortable calling videogames one of my guilty juvenile pleasures. I don't look to them to fulfil me the same way an Ingmar Bergman film or T.S. Eliot poem would. I play videogames to play games. To have fun using strategy, solving puzzles and hopefully get entertained with some fresh, interesting and well-implemented stories and ideas. But even the most well-written games (PS:T for instance) do not come anywhere near the most well-written films, books or poems. It is what it is.

 

UH OH CUE VIDEOGAMES VS ART CONVERSATION IN 3...2...1...

 

Video games are art, in that they are a creative product of human mind. They are not art by definition in terms of conveying some deeper meaning, evoking thoughts and feelings. But nontheless, I would count a few games in there. Yes, PS:T included. Now, you do realise that having so hostile attitude towards differing opinions as yours is quite impolite, do you?

You're the one getting hostile. You're the one acting like Obsidian owes you something because you donated to the kickstarter and anyone that doesn't agree with you is "hostile". Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Reddie]

You're the one getting hostile. You're the one acting like Obsidian owes you something because you donated to the kickstarter and anyone that doesn't agree with you is "hostile".

 

No. Anyone who selectively misinterprets my posting, repeatedly attempts to mock it (and others, too), tries to ridicule an argument by writing caption implying I am of some opinion I never even touched here in this topic... Yeah, if someone does all of it, I consider him hostile. There can be an exchange of opinions or there can be flame. You guys are attempting your best to make it so.

[Cycloneman]

Unlike romances fighting/killing can be properly implemented in a game. Without some kind of advanced technology that we don't yet have sex cannot be. And romance cannot really be done properly either. Romance is something that people actually like to do in the real world. Most people have no interest in going out into the real world and actually killing people. Joining the army doesn't necessarily lead to actually killing anyone. I can list plenty examples of fun games where the mechanic is solely about killing people. Can you list a single example of a fun game that is solely about romancing and having sex with game characters?

Sengoku Rance.

 

No, but seriously though, there are loads of games in this genre. True Love 95, for instance.

So sex is an essential part of what you are asking for when you ask for romances. The point about sticking imaginary appendages into imaginary holes is valid then. Although that could be seen as sexist. Since romances are probably way more popular among female gamers it is probably more about getting holes filled by various imaginary implements. I don't have a problem with porn. I just don't want it in a computer game. If the game did have porn I'd prefer it to be at least something you can't do in real life. Like maybe tasteful gang rape.

Uh, I didn't say that at all? I said that romance sans sex is just romance sans sex. Pretty simple. I don't see where the confusion comes from. Plenty of people have successful romantic relationships IRL without sex, too. If you approach romantic relationships IRL from the perspective of them being all about sex, that's pretty ****ed up. If you just want sex and don't care about romance, that's why man invented casual relationships and one night stands.

So your example of a properly implemented romance is one from ME2. Exactly what I was expecting. So I take it that you are a fan of post Dragon Age Bioware then. My perhaps unfair generalization is that most of the people clamoring for romance are Biowarians who want to make Project Eternity into yet another Dragon Age or Mass Effect spiritual successor. All I can say is I hope that doesn't happen.

No, ME2 is pretty bad. The combat's stupid and horrendously repetitive, the main plot is godawful (THANKS FOR NOT LETTING ME CHOOSE NOT TO ALLY WITH THE INSANE RACIST TERRORISTS, GAME), all difficulties are made trivial by the cover system, etc.

 

Dragon Age is also really bad and talking about "post-Dragon Age" Bioware is stupid as a consequence.

[Merin]

You consider that post as being hostile?

 

I consider the majority of your posts in this thread as hostile. Not every single one - you HAVE posted some that were reasoned and civil, so I don't think it would be fair to say all of your posts are hostile.

 

But trolling images, personal insults and all caps snark are, by definition, hostile.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh, ok yeah. I'm sometimes being sarcastic so....? Hostile. That makes sense.

 

*ahem*

 

I hope you never encounter anybody truly hostile then. For your own sake.

[Gurkog]

I think that if there is are romance options in the game they should be inspired by The Crying Game. That way LGBT are satisfied too!

 

Although, it would be hillarious to encounter a situation where a L/G character is romancing an NPC of the same sex and in the end that NPC turns out to be the opposite gender in disguise. It would be worth putting in romance just for that.

[Malcador]

 

I consider the majority of your posts in this thread as hostile. Not every single one - you HAVE posted some that were reasoned and civil, so I don't think it would be fair to say all of your posts are hostile.

 

But trolling images, personal insults and all caps snark are, by definition, hostile.

 

Just as an aside, you must be joking if images and caps are hostile, heh. Better outright hostility if it actually was, than being passive aggressive, though.

 

Meh, this is such a worthless issue to have a discussion on, thinking about it. I blame this weird fancying for 'immersion' in games people have.

[Reddie]

Oh, ok yeah. I'm sometimes being sarcastic so....? Hostile. That makes sense.

 

*ahem*

 

I hope you never encounter anybody truly hostile then. For your own sake.

 

I personally have no problem with sarcasm. But some people tend to think that sarcasm justifies hostility and if someone disagrees, well, he just didn't understand their highly intelligent remarks!

 

Sarcasm is a rethoric tool, a way to show hole in someone's reasoning. I.e. when you would say something along the lines of "yeah, cause there are a plenty of games showing the romances can be done right!", you're making a point. This is sarcasm (not very sarcastic, I know, but just to illustrate), but leaves space for reasoning. Use your sarcasm all you want to make a point. Don't use it to mock or ridicule or impute some opinion I haven't endorsed.

 

Or whatever, do what you like. Some people just like being hostile.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I personally have no problem with sarcasm. But some people tend to think that sarcasm justifies hostility and if someone disagrees, well, he just didn't understand their highly intelligent remarks!

 

Sarcasm is a rethoric tool, a way to show hole in someone's reasoning. I.e. when you would say something along the lines of "yeah, cause there are a plenty of games showing the romances can be done right!", you're making a point. This is sarcasm (not very sarcastic, I know, but just to illustrate), but leaves space for reasoning. Use your sarcasm all you want to make a point. Don't use it to mock or ridicule or impute some opinion I haven't endorsed.

 

Or whatever, do what you like. Some people just like being hostile.

 

So I'm not being romantic enough, is that it?

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[lord of flies]

Neither does doing a sidequest, or reading a lore book. Let's cut all sidequests and lore books out of the game.

 

Oh man its like you totally get the point or something!

So you are pro removing all the sidequests and lore? I can't determine the intention behind sarcasm sometimes.

[TwinkieGorilla]

So you are pro removing all the sidequests and lore?

 

No, you've got me right. In fact I won't be satisfied until the game is stripped of everything but environmental shadows. I've got an idea already, let me know what you think:

 

Animated Grass: The Reckoning

[Merin]

I consider the majority of your posts in this thread as hostile. Not every single one - you HAVE posted some that were reasoned and civil, so I don't think it would be fair to say all of your posts are hostile.

 

But trolling images, personal insults and all caps snark are, by definition, hostile.

 

Just as an aside, you must be joking if images and caps are hostile, heh. Better outright hostility if it actually was, than being passive aggressive, though.

 

 

Not images, trolling images. "U mad bro" images are meant to incite, mock, and dismiss a person.

 

Posting in all caps, not using all caps for a word but an entire sentence, is generally seen as yelling. Yelling at someone is generally considered a hostile act.

 

So, no, I'm not joking.

 

I'd rather this was a civil discourse on the pro's and con's of including romance in a cRPG. What is gained, what is lost - and that even includes opinions of those who like or don't like it. That's all fine.

 

Attacking the person, not the argument, is what I object to.

 

I don't consider this a joke at all.

 

I consider it sad, and I feel sorry for the people who must resort to such tactics.